SO, WHO WAS STILL HOLDING OUT SOME HOPE THAT OMD/BND MIGHT HAVE RETCONNED "SINS PAST"?

[box_in_the_box.insanejournal.com]

BECAUSE TO THOSE PEOPLE, I SAY THIS:

(Preview page from Dark Avengers #11:)

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

- ha.

"Sins Past" did to Norman Osborn what Identity Crisis did to Doctor Light, in terms of turning him into an utterly unsalvageable and inherently intolerable character, except that DC didn't compound their mistake by trying to turn Doctor Light into the Dick Cheney of the DCU.

Comments

[neuhallidae.insanejournal.com]

What the hell is with this art?

[box_in_the_box.insanejournal.com]

Greg Horn.

[sherkahn.insanejournal.com]

Looks like someone was using a computer paint program to go over inks.

[sailorlibra.insanejournal.com]

I would really, really love to know. Because it's freaking me out.

[khamelea.insanejournal.com]

Watch out, Spider... Thornton?

Gwen Stacy's been replaced by a hoverbot!

[gargoylekitty.insanejournal.com]

Gwen Stacy's been replaced by a hoverbot!

Mte.

[manofbats.insanejournal.com]

Of all the things they retconned out of Spidey they decided to keep this?

[box_in_the_box.insanejournal.com]

TRUFAX1: JMS begged Quesada to let him use OMD to retcon "Sins Past," which JMS himself wrote. Quesada said no.

TRUFAX2: The issues after "Sins Past" were the first issues since the start of JMS's run that ASM's sales dipped below 80K.

[mugiwara.insanejournal.com]

Because it was supposed to be retconned? Well, anyway, glad it wasn't.
I hope that Osborn losing it in Dark Avengers will lead to some good Gwen Stacy jokes.

[box_in_the_box.insanejournal.com]

Please tell me what, if anything, was even possibly good about "Sins Past."

It began with the age-accelerated ninja-children of Gwen Stacy, and it ended with Norman Osborn's orgasm-face.

It was absolutely devoid of any redeeming virtue.

[shadowpsykie.insanejournal.com]

I don't know why any of you are at all surprised, but they said from the VERY begining that Sins of the Past still happened... what i am more interested about is the satanic cabal that appears to him.

[box_in_the_box.insanejournal.com]

I'm not surprised, just disappointed, because "Sins Past" was a 100-percent terrible story on every possible level, and it's turned Norman Osborn into a character who I never want to see again.

[punishermax.insanejournal.com]

Ehhh could care less. More concerned about the art here. Dark Avengers has had some amazing art so far and this looks pretty sub par for it.

[silverzeo.insanejournal.com]

Who is willing to bet that the writers are going to put in a "twist" about the Gwen's death in this story arc? Like, while Spider-Man was bringing GS up with his web, Osborn breaks her neck so he wouldn't let the affair hit the news and have Spider-Man think he killed a life?

[punishermax.insanejournal.com]

Nah, it's just Molecule Man and his Funky Bunch screwing with Norm's mind.

[autolychus2.insanejournal.com]

Well, as much as I hoped OMD/BND did at least some good and retconned this idiocy, it didn't turn Norman into Dr. Light. And Norman has never been, nor will he ever be inherently intolerable. He's still Spidey's No. 2 villain, behind Doc Ock.

[box_in_the_box.insanejournal.com]

Norman Osborn was a better character dead than he ever was alive.

And Otto Octavius should have always been considered Spidey's number-one foe. Much more than Venom or the clones ever were, he was the dark Peter Parker.

[snapper52.insanejournal.com]

Sigh. I like some of Horn's covers but have hated the interiors I've seen. Norman in the last panel... God. That's the stupidest pose I've seen today.

[xlineartx.insanejournal.com]

Oh hey look, everything I hate about comics ever.

[flidgetjerome.insanejournal.com]

I love how in the middle of this attempt at photo-realism they still had to try depict the Spider-Sense somehow. Possibly by getting an intern with some markers to do it.

[(Anonymous)]

It looks like part of Norman's hair has decided to flee to a better comic.

[silver_paired.insanejournal.com]

So from what I can see, Norman Osborn is in front of a few dank-looking factories with circular windows and rather depressing balloons being released from their roofs. Sensing something amiss, he is startled byt he orange lines that suddenly appear in front of his face, and he tries to run away from them. But before he can, The Amazing Levitating Gwen has a monologue to deliver, at which point Norman gets an inexplicably horrible itch on his back but suddenly cannot bend his arms at the elbow. The two centipedes jumping off his shoulder express his anguish in a way he never could.

Aaaaaand scene.

[xdoop.insanejournal.com]

"Sins Past" did to Norman Osborn what Identity Crisis did to Doctor Light, in terms of turning him into an utterly unsalvageable and inherently intolerable character

Making Light a rapist like that completely changed his character. Before he was a cowardly villain, then he was just evil scum. Whenever he appeared ever he or one of the other characters usually mentioned how he was a rapist. That's pretty much all his character was about.

How has Sins Past affected Norman? It's only been mentioned a couple of times.

[box_in_the_box.insanejournal.com]

How has Sins Past affected Norman?

To be fair, it's actually compounded the damage that's been done to his character ever since the end of the "Clone Saga," when every single writer to handle the character had tried to retcon in some OTHER way that Norman Osborn ruined Peter Parker's life years ago. I suppose bringing Norman Osborn back in the first place ALREADY ruined him, but "Sins Past" made it even WORSE, because now, not only did Norman KILL Gwen, but he basically CUCKOLDED Peter with her. And that's after he also stole Peter and Mary Jane's baby, stole his aunt, killed his clone-brother, and bought the Daily Bugle for a while (and during Byrne's run, was the guy behind all of Spider-Man's original enemies attacking him). And while it may not have been MENTIONED in ASM, it's the entire justification for Harry's ex-fiance getting pregnant with Norman's baby (as revealed in "American Son"), so it's still heavily influencing the stories. The only way the writers could make Norman even MORE responsible for all of Peter's miseries would be if it turned out that he hired the burglar to kill Uncle Ben.

[wonderwomanhero.insanejournal.com]

Can someone explain to me what is going on? Is Gwen Stacy gonna come back to life?

[punishermax.insanejournal.com]

Norman went on a mission with the Dark Avengers to a town that was having some major issues in issue 10 of Dark Avengers. At the end of the issue the town dissolves and we Molecule Man along with a whole host of big bads (Mephisto as well) looking like they wanna have a talk.

The implication here is that this may be Norman finally cracking and going coco for cocoa puffs again and becoming Goblin again. This is most likely a mental break for him.

[spiritoftherain.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)]

Look, I don't want to start an internet war with you, but could you please cut down on the caps lock? At least put it under an LJ-cut? It really bloody hurts my eyes.

[box_in_the_box.insanejournal.com]

Sorry, was done for dramatic effect. :(

[(Anonymous)]

Every time I think about Norman Osborn and Gwen Stacy together, I imagine that sex scene with Lumbergh from Office Space.

The only thing "Sins Past" did is make BND only the second worst storytelling decision in the history of ever.

[box_in_the_box.insanejournal.com]

This comment wins a gold star. Well done.

To box_in_the_box

[strannik01.insanejournal.com]

I know I shouldn't say anything, because we've all been down this road many, many times before, but given the sheer obnoxiousness of your post, I can't resist.

Norman Osborn had consensual sex with Gewen Stacy while she and Peter weren't even dating (as per J.R. Fettinger's article on the matter). While I can understand you being squicked at seeing Obsborn's organism face, and I can understand your issues with the writing in that particular story arc, I don't see what why you feel that what Osborn and Gwen did was so reprehensible.

[box_in_the_box.insanejournal.com]

It's offensive because JMS tried to defend this story as being a REBUKE to the "virgin/whore" dichotomy, by showing that even a "good girl" like Gwen had a sexual side, but in point of fact, all that it did was REINFORCE the "virgin/whore" dichotomy in her character, because the ONLY way that Quesada could imagine Gwen being anything other than a total virgin was if she had secret sex with the father of her then-ex-boyfriend's best friend, which is ill-advised enough in itself, even BEFORE you get to the fact that Norman Osborn ALWAYS had a 100-percent openly creepy personality, which makes Gwen seem both stupid and weak for swooning and choosing to go to bed with a man who projected all the warmth, compassion and trustworthiness of a convicted serial rapist. And since Gwen isn't even alive to share her feelings about it, it becomes exactly like identity Crisis - ie. a story in which a woman gets violated (Sue got raped, Gwen got used) and killed, and the story says that this is a bad thing because it makes the MEN feel bad.

Also, after Norman has already been revealed as the one who masterminded the "Clone Saga," AND abducted Peter and Mary Jane's baby, AND replaced Aunt May with a dying actress, AND killed Peter's clone-brother, AND briefly bought the Daily Bugle, AND was temporarily retconned into being the guy who sent all of Spider-Man's first enemies after him in Byrne's Chapter One, revealing that he also took Gwen's virginity, and that Peter never even had sex with Gwen, REALLY overplays how much he's become the singular source of every single one of Peter's miseries. The only way it could get any worse would be if they revealed that Norman hired the burglar who killed Uncle Ben and arranged for Mephisto to make the deal with Peter. Plus, Norman impregnating Gwen set the precedent for Norman to impregnate Harry's ex-fiancee Lily.

Oh, yeah, and with all of that, even after being caught and unmasked LIVE ON TELEVISION in the act of MURDERING COPS AND CIVILIANS, and then CONFESSING ON AIR to being the Green Goblin, Norman is STILL universally beloved by the entire public of the Marvel Universe, with Bendis saying shit in interviews about how Norman will be a better "hero" than the REAL heroes BECAUSE he's evil, while Spider-Man is now a loser who's more hated and put-upon than ever before. You'll forgive me if I question who Marvel is rooting for here, especially when Quesada gushes in interviews about Norman's "awesome hair" and his "intense sexual charisma," as though Norman is his damn Canon Sue.

I hate this story, and everything that's come from it, so much that I now wish that the character of Norman Osborn could be retroactively erased from existence - not just retconned from the comics, but all of his stories never published in the real world - just to prevent that one story from ever being told.

And if you find my posts so annoying, scroll past them, because you know by now that I'm not going to make them any less annoying to accommodate you (in fact, the more complaints I get on that score, the more I tend to amp it up, because I'm incredibly contrarian and spiteful).

[herozero.insanejournal.com]

I'm just happy he's not Tommy Lee Jones.

[jaybee3.insanejournal.com]

I really hate this. And you know what, even if there were a ton of writers/editors who have clamoring for the end of the marriage and a single Spidey can anyone name someone - anyone - (other than Joe Q.) who wants to keep the idea that Gwen Stacy had a one-night-stand (and gave up her virginity) with the father of one of her friends and then got pregnant and then gave birth to twins secretly and then was killed by said father of one of her friends (in a story where all this was never brought up - because some dummy hadn't thought of it yet) and then MJ knew the secret and kept it from Peter all these years and then the twins were rapidly aged into adults and hunted Spider-Man. And all this and Gwen never once slept with Peter (but she would with Normy because she felt sorry for him), Peter, the man she loved and who she supposedly wanted to raise the kids with (and she never hinted at telling him)? Does any of this sound like Gwen?

Heck, JMS wanted to make the kids Peter's and was overruled by Joe Q., he wanted to wipe out this storyline as part of the Mephisto/OMD deal and was overruled by Joe Q. And now they're bringing it up again, as if rubbing it in the reader's noses?

I know Dan Didio gets a lot of flack but even Comic-Dickery on this scale would be beyond him. But not Queseda however apparently.

[cyberghostface.insanejournal.com]

and she never hinted at telling him

She did, actually. Norman just killed her before she got the chance.

[box_in_the_box.insanejournal.com]

With Doctor Light, it's just "Let's make him Rapey McRaperape" and that trait was all that defined his character from that point on.

It's more of a slow-burn, but they're getting there with Norman. Yes, his jokes about knocking up Gwen in Thunderbolts were one-offs, but the fact that he impregnated Lily Hollister (another young blonde who was dating people in his son's peer group, in that case Harry himself) was a key revelation in "American Son," and the Savage She-Hulk mini also made Norman's sperm an important plot point. Couple this with Quesada's vocally fetishistic attitude toward Norman, and I think we've already seen the permanent enshrinement of "fucks Peter and Harry's young blonde girlfriends" as a defining character trait for Norman from now on.

[cyberghostface.insanejournal.com]

I personally thought American Son did more damage to Norman's character than Sins Past with Norman trying to actually murder his son among other things.

Sins Past bothers me because IMO because it's too convoluted and takes away from the simplicity of the original "Death of Gwen Stacy" story. But I don't think it ruins Norman's or Gwen's characters. With Doctor Light, it's just "Let's make him Rapey McRaperape" and that trait was all that defined his character from that point on.