Detective Comics #859

[gargoylekitty]

We see Kate as she goes to and gets booted from West Point. After telling her father he's all 'okay. what now?' So she goes around just living a bit, meets Renee, has a fight with Renee, and...



I know, I know. We've seen the whole first Batman encounter/moment before, though this made me smile(and holy fuck, is that art pretty right there).

Also, don't take my summary as anything, go read it!

Comments

[thehefner]

And now we can add "Does a fucking perfect David Mazzucchelli impression" to JH Williams III' list of awesomeness.

Having Batman's art style clash with the YEAR ONE style Mazzucchelli style is a wonderful touch.

[filthysize]

Agreed. That's a stroke of genius. Williams is crazy creative with his experimenting.

[schmevil]

I love how... unrestrained he is with his experimentation. Like there's no reason not to play around with textures and different styles. He just expects the readers to go along for the ride - which we absolutely will, because it is an awesome ride. He's not soft-peddling.

[mad]

There is much to be appreciated about his art on the book, but I have to say I find some of his page layouts difficult to follow. Not the ones posted here, but those spreads with the animal people cult, for instance.

[filthysize]

I worked that page out, but yeah, it was disorienting at first. But I think that's intentional, as well. He usually does that kind of layout with fighting / chase scenes. I think it has roughly the same effect as when a movie shakes the camera during action scenes.

[ian_karkull]

J.H. Williams III could repaint the goddamn Sistine Chapel if it ever burned down.

[halloweenjack]

Well-spotted.

[sherkahn]

Wow, the artist and colorists really went out of their way. Everyone in the issue is drawn / colored in the style, except for Batman. Batman has looks like he's been photographed and water painted and oiled onto the art, making him stand out from everything else.

[sistermagpie]

Yeah, that is really cool.

[theanswer]

Batwoman on-going series now kthnx. >_

[xammax]

Its called Detective Comics.

[theanswer]

She's not going to be the star forever. Dick takes over soon.

[kingrockwell]

Nah, he's just guesting for an arc. Though the title is bound to go back to Batman before too long.

[bluejaybirdie]

Wow. I love this. The art, the writing, the pacing, everything. I especially love that while Batman certainly made an impression on Kate, he wasn't the one to save her--she did that herself. It's a great way to have the Bat kinda-sorta influence her without making her the "oh no! helpless female is attacked and saved by hero, and ends up inspired by hero!" sterotype. Rucka, ILU.

[janegray]

Motto to all :D

[thebigapricot]

Oh J.H. Williams for your atwork I am thankful. Great issue, but a big switch from 52 on why Kate and Renee broke up.

[suzene]

GodDAMMIT, I am supposed to be culling comics from my pull, not adding them!

[leikomgwtfbbq]

You know, I didn't really like Batwoman at first, but now I'm totally loving her. She needs her own series. leik now plz.

[mystery]

The art is absolutely amazing.

And I really like that she's a soldier.

[3goodtimes]

We've seen the whole first Batman encounter/moment before

When did we see it? *asks as a humble but grateful semi-noob*

[gargoylekitty]

I meant in general. Like Helena had her first time seeing him, Babs had hers, ect.

[mad]

When was Helena's first time seeing him? Are we talking Cry for Blood or Huntress: Year One?

Babs had hers

Which origin are we going with, though? I think the only significant first encounter she had with Batman was the one from the 80s, where she's hiding in her dad's office and Bats sneaks her a note.

[scottyquick]

CfB was an amazing story, and one of Helena's best, but in it, Rucka retconned her reasoning for becoming Huntress into "She wanted to take down the mob and saw Batman", and then Madison changed it back to "She wanted to take down the mob".

[mad]

But even Madison's version had her drawing inspiration from Batman. She wanted to take down the mob, but making the leap from that to being the Huntress, she saw him and then got the cape, costume and chose a codename.

[scottyquick]

Are you sure? The way I remember it, Batman isn't even in the story until the second last issue.

[mad]

Pretty sure. I'd have to re-read, but I think she had come to Gotham (with the aim of taking down the mob) and saw Batman at some point, and then got her costume made.

[gargoylekitty]

I'm talking as the moment it hits them to throw on a cowl and patrol Gotham, kinda inspiration. It doesn't have to be meeting him per se.

I really need to re-read the Huntress mini, I can't seem to remember much about it(did she get inspired by him there?), though, yeah, I was talking about Cry for Blood. For Babs I suppose you could reference that story but I meant more her dressing up in the outfit because he exists and her father's role in the Batverse.

[mad]

Right. But theres generally an inconsistency in how those stories get re-told. Huntress's hasn't been re-told or summarized enough to have fallen into it too much, but with Babs and Cass, it's always "she was inspired by Batman", when really it's much more than that, as it is with Kate.

Whereas with Bruce, it's almost always "his parents are dead" and not "a bat fell through his window and it scared him" or whatever.

I am likely totally jumping the gun here with pessimism, but in re-telling this origin story, future writers might just see this as "has tragedy in past, saw Batman and was inspired", making Batman seem like the more significant motivator in the story, rather than someone demonstrating a way to do things.

[gargoylekitty]

I definitely agree that the habit of later writers giving Batman more of a hand in things takes away from the story as a whole. But the acknowledgment/presence of some kind of Batfigure is rather unavoidable when they're going to be wearing the symbol(unless you have a ton of bats flying around Gotham looking for places to show up and inspire costume design... and with that I'm suddenly desiring a retelling of Batman's origin from the bat's point of view).

Bat: My parents ran into a window and died. On that night I vowed to dedicate my life to destroying all windows to make sure it doesn't happen to another bat. Occasionally, the windows are open and thus unstoppable, in which case I fly into the house and try to scare the people inside for using them. I did this once and the guy started dressing like me and smashing through windows. My legacy is a mighty one.

[aaron_bourque]

"I'm a goddamn soldier"?

[ninjapeps]

this is different. every other first Batman encounter I can even vaguely remember involves the character either being rescued or seeing someone get rescued. for once, the character beats up her attacker before Batman does anything.

[golden_orange]

That is a nice touch.

[anoolka]

Yes, exactly :D I was very pleasantly surprised by how little Batman had to do here and that Kate didn't really need his help. Nice moment. And great art.

[taggerung301]

O_O
sweet jesus I love this art
the contrast there . . . .

[mad]

Just finished reading this. I'm not sure whether or not I like having another Batspiration moment, to be perfectly honest.

[mad]

Or at least, having a significant encounter with Batman being the inspiration for Kate to become Batwoman.

I mean, on the one hand, it makes sense and it's probably better to include Batman in it, so that she's not just slapping a bat on her chest for no reason. It fits. But on the other hand, it makes her like so many others. (Since DC seems to be fond of retconning things so as to make it so Babs and Cass only became Batgirl because of Batman.)

Hnn.

[gargoylekitty]

Yeah, I get what you're saying. Though, tbh, unless you have them living in a vacuum or somehow completely unknowing of his existence, there's no way for them not to in some way have been influenced by him(or the idea of the character) when they're running around Gotham with a bat on their chest and a similar outfit.

Though I'm now pondering a 'what if' of her(depending on timeline, I'm not awake enough to be thinking in comic book time, or some distant future newbie, as the bat family needs to cut it the fuck out with the growth atm) running into Batgirl instead. Similar instance and you still get the bat element without it being him.

[gargoylekitty]

But I suppose you could kinda sorta say that's how it was with Steph's being in the Batgirl suit but she was a Robin first and already knew Batman so... idk where my brain's going with this... oh, right. Bed. Need to stop thinking 'out loud'.

[mad]

Ah, but Steph became Spoiler completely on her own. Maybe the idea of a vigilante was planted in her head by Batman et all existing in the same city as her, but when it comes down to it, it was her criminal father that was the inspiration and motivation to become a vigilante.

There's even that bit where she's talking about her dad after he died, and you see the various costumes he wore as the Cluemaster, and there's aspects of them that she clearly used in the Spoiler costume.

She only met Batman after she'd already created the Spoiler identity. And she later became Robin and then Batgirl after having met the bat-crew.

[gargoylekitty]

Yeah, that's what makes her Spoiler identity unique and good. I was talking more her role as Batgirl, but she was kinda shoved into it there via Cass tossing her the suit so it doesn't really work along the the same lines.


Eitherway, I now want the Batgirl/woman inspiring someone thing(in the way distant future as the Batfamily... errrr... I already said this, didn't I?).

[mad]

Heh, I think so.

Well. Maybe one day we will have li'l Helena Kyle and the Stephlet getting inspired by their mamas somehow.

[mad]

It's true. And having her don the costume without any connection to the bats would seem rather presumptuous and odd.

Though I'm now pondering a 'what if' of her(depending on timeline, I'm not awake enough to be thinking in comic book time, or some distant future newbie, as the bat family needs to cut it the fuck out with the growth atm) running into Batgirl instead. Similar instance and you still get the bat element without it being him.

That would've been very cool. I can't figure out what age Kate is supposed to be, but I gather that she's younger than Batman, maybe somewhere between Dick and Babs. And given that we didn't see Renee as a character until the 90s, this would have to be post-TKJ, so it could have been Cass in her early Batgirl career.

[filthysize]

Here's how I see it: 70% of Gotham has personally been rescued by Batman at least once. Roughly 1% of them would go on and become inspired by him. This could mean being a cop, a firefighter, or a social worker. Some of them, namely the more aimless yet determined ones like Kate here, would follow Batman's footsteps more directly. When you look at it that way, it just makes sense.

[kingrockwell]

I've never been bothered so much by Batspirations, since it's one thing to have it in mind to get something done, but, even in comics, a pretty weird leap to putting on a costume to getting that thing done. Bruce is already weird, but he at least had a bat give him his Batspiration.

The thing that makes it weirder for Kate than I think it was for Hel is that Hel actually had a goal in mind that a Batspiration would help her achieve. Kate was just aimless, I guess.

[mad]

Kate was just aimless, I guess.

Which actually makes her more like Barbara, really, who didn't have an exact goal in mind. Depending on which origin story you prefer, she may or may not have already possessed the ambition to fight crime, but she sort of stumbled into being Batgirl. She wore a costume to a costume party and the opportunity for crimefighting found her while she was wearing the costume.

[unicornicopia]

This is painfully gorgeous. I love love love everything about this book right now.