o what suffering the editors hath wrought

[3goodtimes]

Filling roxrox 's request for Tim finding out about Steph's death. Later, I'll make another post dealing with Tim's grief (or noticeable lack thereof) as it relates to our lovely Ms. Brown.




In Batman #634, Bruce speaks about the aftermath of War Games with Dick and Alfred.

The story begins, as they so often do, with Bruce royally fucking up his family relationships.


You can almost forgive him for chickening out. He doesn't want to see someone he loves in pain. It's similar to the situation with Jason and his mother. Bruce can't crush the hopes of his Robins. In this case though, he only makes the situation harder for poor Tim who's robbed of a chance to say goodbye. Alfred's scolding look is well-placed.

Somewhat selfish of you Bruce, but poignant statement nonetheless.


Oh Tim. You're breaking my heart here.





And then Dick has to steal the spotlight for his angst of course. Typical. :P

Comments

[team_mummy]

oh, Tim ;_;

also: "Young...and STRONG...Mmmm"

[espanolbot]

Heh, brings to mind Dick Grayson, aged twelve, from ASBARTW.

[mystery]

Wow. I found this story, when I read it, all poignant and sad. Not about Bruce or Dick being selfish jerks. And I still don't think they're being selfish jerks.

[3goodtimes]

Oh I think it's poignant and sad too. I don't think Dick's being a selfish jerk at all (that was a joke), and I don't think Bruce is being a jerk. However, I do think he's being selfish.

Tim lost the chance to see Stephanie one last time before she passed away (as far as everyone knew), but Bruce was too weak to tell him. This was a selfish choice. Of course, Bruce didn't do it out of malicious intent. He did it because he couldn't stand to see Tim suffer. But it was still a mistake and it still hurt Tim. That's the point I wanted to make.

[mad]

It's both, really. Dick isn't so much a jerk here, specifically, but on a meta-level he's stealing the story.

And Bruce not telling Tim that Steph was dying...it's a very human kind of selfishness. Not only could he not handle being the bearer or bad news to Tim, if he'd told Tim then and there he'd after to explain everything that led to it--a big part of which was arguably Bruce's fault, which could potentially taint Tim's loss of Steph with anger at Bruce. Bruce avoids all of those uncomfortable possibilities and gets to be the only one to say goodbye to Steph.

I don't blame him for it, really, because it is partly because he cares about Tim and Steph.

[iskander]

I still can't believe anyone at DC thought killing the spoiler was a good idea. What was the point.

All I can say is that when Bruce finally returns I hope the editors have good plans for Tim and din;t shelve him or something crap.

[3goodtimes]

Maybe they'll get him pregnant then torture and kill him only to reveal later that it was all a trick! And then he can go into a mindwipe coma and lose an arm!

It'll be fabulously dramatic. Fans of his character will love it!

[mystery]

I think Tim'll be okay. I don't think his success depends on Bruce's return., inevitable though it is. Red Robin is a good title. It's doing well and it's a good read. Plus Tim's a strong, viable character.

I think with Spoiler dying it was some kind of end to story arc. I wish there had been significantly less torture, myself. But still she still came back.

[bj_l]

I, for one, actually liked Spoilers death.

[autumn_lily]

I'm choking on all the angst!

[bluejaybirdie]

I was expecting a bit more emotion from Tim there. Tears, or something. The lack of anything like that kind of lessened the emotional impact for me. And man, is that art static. It doesn't convey movement at all. Dick looks like a rag doll lying on that fire escape.

[3goodtimes]

I dunno. It's pretty Tim-like to repress, especially during a time of upheaval where everyone has to keep fighting to save the city despite any emotional pain. It's also very common for shock to set in before emotion.

Of course, Identity Crisis shows a very different side of mourning Tim. I guess it all depends on how you see his character.

I agree that Tim specifically could have been drawn better here. What he's feeling doesn't come through in his body or face, even if they were going the shock angle. I think Lee did a good job with Bruce though.

[mad]

I actually really like the art. The scenes with Tim and Bruce on the roof read to me like there really isn't supposed to be too much movement there in the first place. And considering Dick is severely injured, out of it, and bleeding there...it kind of makes sense to have him looking a bit like a limp ragdoll there. =/

[lyraeinne]

Oh, Timmy. ;_;

As much as it was as selfish choice on Bruce's part, it's things like this that make me love him. It was an assey decision to make for how much it hurt Tim later, but he made it because he loved that kid and wanted to spare him a few minutes of pain and Bruce is a man, and he's not perfect. He makes shitty decisions sometimes when it comes to his family, but it's because he loves them too much rather than not enough.

Totally different, in my opinion, from garden variety Batdickery, which mostly seems designed to give the impression that Bruce really just doesn't give a shit about Dick, or Tim, or their feelings about anything beyond how useful either of them may be to the Mission. Which is boring and unsatisfying, frankly.

[3goodtimes]

Absolutely. I love his emotional weaknesses, especially when they pertain to his family. I don't consider this batdickery at all. Issues like this develop Bruce as a character so perfectly.

[scottyquick]

Oh, damn, nevermind, I take back what I said about Gabrych not writing Batdick.

[bluefall]

Well, this isn't baseless abusive Batdick, though. It's Bruce genuinely trying to be kind and fucking it up because he's got the emotional sophistication of a twelve-year-old. That's quite different than the standard-issue Batdick, to whom "try to be kind" would never even occur.

[jaybee3]

Well I'm relieved the ret-con that Steph was alive all the time took away the sting of making Leslie basically an accessory to murder or whatever just to prove a point, in order to make the ret-con happen they had to make Bruce KNOW she was alive and Leslie faked the whole thing and then never tell Tim and ever since Steph's been back (even the last time she was sent to talk sense into him about looking for Bruce and he punched her) she never did seem to get why Tim was angry with her as if she expected things just to pick right up again. The kid mourned her for a year, a teenager who in the prime of his hormonal years mourning a girl he never got beyond first base with deeply and sincerely for a long time and all the while Bruce, Steph and Leslie could have stopped it with one word or one letter or whatever.

This is also why I don't see Steph and Tim getting back together any time in the far foreseeable future (if ever). Too much water under the bridge.

[mystery]

Yeah. It's a mess.

[zordboy]

*sigh* You know, I'm sorry, but "War Games" was one of those things that just should never have happened in the first place. The entire point seemed to make the police force hate the capes (how long did that one last?) and kill off Spoiler. The former didn't last long and the second was an idea so reviled that they put together a retcon almost immediately to bring Steph back.

Plus Willingham acted like a complete tool addressing criticism of the issue where Steph died. Now fair enough comic book fans are a melodramatic bunch at the best of times, but when something is *that* bad, you know, I'm sorry Mr Willingham, but you're gonna cop some crap over it.

[mystery]

What did he do toolwise? I'd love to read it. I think it was 17 writers on 37 segments. .

[roxrox]

OMG! How sad! Thank you so much for posting this!

[frolics]

Bruce and Tim is my favorite Batfamily relationship.

[starwolf_oakley]

According to some message boards, Willingham was told that Spoiler was going to get killed off, and wanted to make her Robin for a little while and show how awful torture is.

Those same message boards state the whole "Leslie killed Stephanie to prove a point to Bruce" was Willingham's idea, but he suggested it as a joke/wild idea when the Bat-Editors wanted Leslie out of the books. And they ran with it.

[mad]

Actually, what I heard is that was once the plan was in place for Spoiler to get killed off, Didio was worried not enough people knew about her/valued her as Spoiler, so he told them to make her Robin for a while so that her death would have a greater impact.

I also heard a story about how at a convention, a girl nervously came up to the mic and asked if they would put in a trophy case for Steph or bring her back, etc, and Willingham started to joke that he was going to bring her back and kill her off horribly and repeatedly. The girl was visibly close to tears as a result, so Didio had her to sit behind Willingham to make him feel guilty and uncomfortable for the rest of the panel.

(That's all Didio's version of events, at any rate.)

[shadowvalkyrie]

See, THIS is the way I love my Batfamily! Dysfunctional in interesting ways, and genuinely caring about each other. And I'll take pretty, understated art like this over dramatic poses and flashing lightning any day. This here is how emotional impact really works! (RIP and BftC should go sit in the corner and be ashamed of themselves.)

[benicio127]

Egads, yes!

(RIP and BftC should go sit in the corner and be ashamed of themselves.)

And also flog themselves to death.

[benicio127]

Awww. I remember reading this issue awhile back. I miss this Tim. Can we replace this one with the one that's in Red Robin?

[roxrox]

Seconded!

[jelly_ace]

This is why you shouldn't do death and retcon it later. It erases the poignancy of situations like these--heroes dealing with loss, reaffirming their humanities, and re-establishing connections.

[nevermore999]

Thanks for posting this. I've never seen it before.

[shadowpsykie]

This Might be a horrible thing to ask to get posted... but everyone keeps saying that Stephanie fouth valiantly (and she did, she fought tooth and nail and ALMOST made it.) i was hoping someone could post the stuff with her fighting Black Mask.

[3goodtimes]

Although I shudder to think of what my inbox will look like if I make a Steph death-centric post (lengthy discussions follow War Games Steph wherever she goes), it wouldn't be too much trouble to track down those scans. Expect them some time this week.