o what suffering the editors hath wrought

[3goodtimes]

Filling roxrox 's request for Tim finding out about Steph's death. Later, I'll make another post dealing with Tim's grief (or noticeable lack thereof) as it relates to our lovely Ms. Brown.




In Batman #634, Bruce speaks about the aftermath of War Games with Dick and Alfred.

The story begins, as they so often do, with Bruce royally fucking up his family relationships.


You can almost forgive him for chickening out. He doesn't want to see someone he loves in pain. It's similar to the situation with Jason and his mother. Bruce can't crush the hopes of his Robins. In this case though, he only makes the situation harder for poor Tim who's robbed of a chance to say goodbye. Alfred's scolding look is well-placed.

Somewhat selfish of you Bruce, but poignant statement nonetheless.


Oh Tim. You're breaking my heart here.





And then Dick has to steal the spotlight for his angst of course. Typical. :P

Comments

[mystery]

I don't like the torture one bit. Not one bit. But if we're talking about how Steph didn't let anybody know she was alive and not dead, that has nothing to do with her torture. It has to do with how she's behaved post-return. And her return. And it was tacky and jerkish to make her not bother to let her mom or boyfriend know she was back.

[3goodtimes]

True. I'd forgotten the details of how she reappeared. I assumed you were talking about the pre-retcon period of silence from Steph while she was with Leslie.

[mystery]

Well, I'm talking about that too. But that was something that came with the ret-con. It all came together. It never appeared until suddenly it all appeared. It's not like we knew Steph and Leslie were hanging out alive in Africa and then they suddenly appeared in Gotham. It was all at once, wasn't it?

[bluefall]

Yeah, not immediately telling her apathetic, borderline emotionally abusive mom with whom she's had a conflicted and painful relationship her entire life, or her controlling jerky former boyfriend who heaped nothing but contempt and skepticism on her decision to do the thing that almost cost her her life, is totally tacky and jerkish. Couldn't have a thing to do with her being human and scared and not having left those relationships in particularly good places and being unsure of the reception she'd get and not having the emotional fortitude to just jump right back in the instant she hit Gotham dirt so they could start ripping on her again.

[bluefall]

Hrm, that may have been overly snippy. I apologize, inaccurate Steph criticism hits several raw nerves with me.

[mystery]

I think that it was bizarre to write her as owing nothing to the people who mourned her. They were hurt by losing her. I'm sorry they were imperfect, just like the person they mourned, but it's basic kindness, imo. It's not actually a crit of Steph so much as a crit of the handling of her return. It kind of--I guess--becomes a crit of Steph when it's made into something other than a writer choosing to ignore certain issues for a big reveal.

[mad]

What's really unclear about the whole, to me, is the degree to which Stephanie made a conscious decision to go to Africa with Leslie, or if it was entirely Leslie's idea.

Either way, it makes Leslie the jerk (as it's very probable Steph wasn't in her right mind then), which is another one of the awful things that was brought about by Stephanie's death.

[mystery]

What's really unclear about the whole, to me, is the degree to which Stephanie made a conscious decision to go to Africa with Leslie
It's very unclear to me as well! I think it's just Never Been Addressed So Far. IMO, it was a quick fix and the greater ramifications weren't thought of at the time.

[mad]

I think they're just trying to ignore it all. And understandably so, really, because, yeah. There are too many unfortunate implications there, one of them namely being Leslie essentially kidnapping a minor and taking her out of the country.

They did have a scene (I think it was in one of the BftC tie-in oneshots) where Leslie was with Dick and Tim, and Tim was being really cold to her, and she said something like "I hope you'll be able to forgive me some day". And Leslie's popped up a couple times in Batgirl, so she's established as being back in the city.

A real test would be to have Leslie face Steph's mom. Not to mention Bruce and Alfred.

[sistermagpie]

Unfortunately, as with any "I pretended to be dead" story, however it started the person still winds up having to decide to continue the lie and it's just so huge. Which would change anyone's thoughts about a person you had a relationship with that they would do that. On one hand they're trying to ignore it and do kind of subjectively ignore the parts they don't want to deal with, but at the same time sometimes it feels like it explains some things about the way people interact.

[mad]

Yes, this.

I think it's probably better overall that they ignore some things (like Leslie's part in it, because I hate the idea of her as a bad guy), because then you'll just end up coming up with awkward explanations that reflect badly on almost everyone.

Although really, as with Jason Todd, I feel the one person who should be made to look at least a little bad, is Bruce. After all, his inconsistent treatment and trust of her left her with the need/want to prove herself. Not to mention that he made her Robin, a title which is supposed to mean someone Batman trusts, and yet he didn't trust her enough to tell her about Matches Malone. That bit of ignorance was what caused the gang war in the first place, eventually leading to her death.

But DC seems generally reluctant to admit any mistake on Bruce's part.

[bluefall]

She's not written as owing her mom nothing - her not having told her mom is written as a big deal, and Steph and her mom are currently working an uneasy lack of trust situation in her own title that accurately reflects that. And Tim is sulky as hell about it and their relationship is fractured and uneasy, with him holding it against her for the entire rest of their interactions prior to her splitting off into her own story in BATGIRL. (Not that she does owe Tim anything anyway, unlike her mom, but that's entirely a matter of opinion and basically beside the point.)

[mystery]

I'm reading Batgirl. Not seeing so much of a ref to what you're speaking of, but okay. It would be appropriate. Are there any direct references? I haven't seen anything close.

[3goodtimes]

That's alright. You make a good point. I tend to come at the issue from the perspective of someone who's experienced a lot of loss, so I lose sight of Steph's emotional state here by identifying too closely with Tim. Her actions are understandable, but still quite cruel no matter how many stupid things Tim's done in their relationship.

[bluefall]

I tend to come at the issue from the perspective of someone who's experienced a lot of loss, so I lose sight of Steph's emotional state here by identifying too closely with Tim.

I can grok that. I'm sort of the same in the other direction; I've had to do a lot of stuff for my own health that involved cutting people who care about me out of the picture, so the idea that sometimes you just have to worry about yourself, and do what you need to do to cope, and if your loved ones really love you, they'll understand, is pretty strong for me. Which makes me overidentify with Steph and judge Tim more harshly for making it harder on her, even though his hurt and anger does make total sense.

[mystery]

I think--it's my guess we'll see the grave scene next. I'm not thinking we're supposed to see the bereaved's mom as a monster who doesn't deserve to know her dead daughter she's mourning-okay, wait. You're saying that if the people she's mad at aren't acting the way she wants it's fine to let the people she's mad at think she's dead?

[bluefall]

You're saying that if the people she's mad at aren't acting the way she wants it's fine to let the people she's mad at think she's dead?

You say "not acting the way she wants" like she were a ten-year-old demanding candy. That's utterly facile. And fairly hypocritical, or I guess whatever the observational equivalent of hypocritical is? Selective? Biased? Let's go with biased, given the way you excuse Bruce for his dickery in this very scene. Since after all, Bruce here and Steph post-return are doing exactly the same thing (withholding information from someone who probably deserves it) for exactly the same reason (fear of the reaction that information will cause, and the impact that reaction will have on the person giving it and the relationship between the two involved parties). If she's a "tacky jerk" so is he.

[mystery]

Oh, I don't think Bruce is withholding information about Steph from Tim because of Tim's reaction at all. Not at alll.

[mystery]

Also, I disagree that it's comparable to compare one character (Bruce) here in this one scene to Steph not telling the people who love her that she's alive a year later after she's come back from Africa and been knocking heads as Spoiler.

[icon_uk]

I'm not sure I agree with that 100% Bruce doesn't tell Tim pain to spare HIM pain, whether it was a good idea can be argued one way or the other, but it was essentially selfless. Based on how it's presented Steph doesn't tell Tim at least partly because SHE doesn't want to deal with it.

[bluefall]

Eh. I definitely think it's true that Bruce's claim to Dick is largely accurate, and he didn't want to inflict on Tim the pain and turmoil that he himself was already feeling. But I also definitely think he knows he bears some culpability in Steph's actions (in fact probably feels that he bears much more than he actually does - this is Babs and Jason all over again), and some or perhaps much of his hesitance with Tim is about not wanting to admit that to him. Bruce is never completely honest with himself (and certainly not with Dick) about his emotions, and his track record is pretty clear on his reaction to his sidekicks getting hurt. So there's certainly a mix there of selfish and giving impulses.

That said, I'd say you could say the same of Steph. Certainly she doesn't want to face the anger and judgement of Tim or her mom, or face the emotional obstacle course of explaining what happened to her (and justifying her decision to a likely unsympathetic audience) while she's already facing the emotional obstacle course of returning to the city that nearly killed her. But Steph also does not have a lot of self-esteem in general, and we've seen before that she doesn't really always get that people, her mother especially, actually do care about her and want her in their lives. I don't find it hard to believe that she'd think she was doing Tim and her mom a favor by not upending their lives *again* or inflicting herself on them, especially if she was on poor terms with them when she left. (I don't recall if she was with her mom, but she and Tim were definitely having some friction over the Robin thing that could make her think he wouldn't be too happy to see her.)

[nevermore999]

Stephanie had been tortured nearly to death and she blames the gang war entirely on herself. It's entirely understandable for her to be messed up in the head enough to believe then people she loves are better off thinking she's dead. And considering the psychological ramifications of what happened to her- it's entirely understandable she was unable to bring herself to contact them- especially considering it was probably a while before she was conscious or in her right mind.

[mystery]

Stephanie had been tortured nearly to death

She's been tortured *to* death and only found out to be dead much later. In the story arc, she's dead.

and she blames the gang war entirely on herself.
I think that 's appropriate to do so. I haven't run across any feelings like you describe but I would appreciate it if I did. Where would I see that?

[mystery]

Oops. Meaning *not dead" for dead there. Only found out to be *not dead* much later. Or, you know *alive*.

[nevermore999]

She's been tortured *to* death and only found out to be dead much later. In the story arc, she's dead.

...yes, I know? I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, we're talking about Steph's return arc.

I think that 's appropriate to do so. I haven't run across any feelings like you describe but I would appreciate it if I did. Where would I see that?

Well, I blame Bruce equally as much because he jerked around Steph and set her up to fail and didn't tell her jack shit which is not something you do to a already screwed up teenage girl and Selina Kyle put it better than I can.

In War Games she was pretty much freaking out over how everything was all her fault and we've seen no indication she's changed her feeling- she refers to herself as a screw up in Batgirl, the first thing she sees when she gets hit with the fear gas is people telling her she's a failure who let the city down and when Babs pointed out she started the gang war she thinks to herself basically "and that's why I'm still doing this" the indication meaning she's attempting to do some atoning...and a couple instances near the end of Robin her guilt was also alluded to.