o what suffering the editors hath wrought

[3goodtimes]

Filling roxrox 's request for Tim finding out about Steph's death. Later, I'll make another post dealing with Tim's grief (or noticeable lack thereof) as it relates to our lovely Ms. Brown.




In Batman #634, Bruce speaks about the aftermath of War Games with Dick and Alfred.

The story begins, as they so often do, with Bruce royally fucking up his family relationships.


You can almost forgive him for chickening out. He doesn't want to see someone he loves in pain. It's similar to the situation with Jason and his mother. Bruce can't crush the hopes of his Robins. In this case though, he only makes the situation harder for poor Tim who's robbed of a chance to say goodbye. Alfred's scolding look is well-placed.

Somewhat selfish of you Bruce, but poignant statement nonetheless.


Oh Tim. You're breaking my heart here.





And then Dick has to steal the spotlight for his angst of course. Typical. :P

Comments

[scottyquick]

Oh, damn, nevermind, I take back what I said about Gabrych not writing Batdick.

[bluefall]

Well, this isn't baseless abusive Batdick, though. It's Bruce genuinely trying to be kind and fucking it up because he's got the emotional sophistication of a twelve-year-old. That's quite different than the standard-issue Batdick, to whom "try to be kind" would never even occur.

[bluejaybirdie]

And, y'know, I can buy the emotional sophistication of a twelve year old coming from the man who never moved past his parents' deaths to the point of dressing up like a giant rodent and fighting crime.

I can't really buy that same man not giving a crap about family, for some reason...

[mystery]

I think... wait. We're okay with others dressing as flying mammels in homage to him but he's a twelve-year-old mentally for doing it himself? What about the person whose parents didn't even get killed but who's wearing the symbol?

[scottyquick]

... is much more sane then him. You don't let judges who have a personal interest in a case preside over it, why should a cape with a personal interest in a crime?

[sistermagpie]

You don't let judges who have a personal interest in a case preside over it, why should a cape with a personal interest in a crime?

Except that metaphor doesn't work. You don't trust a judge in a case they have a personal interest in, but a person doesn't become a crazy or untrustworthy judge because they're involved in any crime. Any more than you become a worse doctor if in childhood you lost family members to the disease you now specialize in treating.

[scottyquick]

No, but you pass it off to other judges. If a judge thinks they're somehow able to be neutral in a case like that, then they're clearly lying, and are going to be biased as fuck.

[sistermagpie]

You pass what on to other judges? Judges don't judge cases in which they're involved, doctors don't treat family members etc. But being a victim of any crime doesn't make a person unfit to be a judge in general, just like having a history of family illness through tragedy doesn't mean you can't be a doctor.

Likewise, you can grow up effected by crime and still be considered a valid policeman. It's not unusual or always bad for life experience to shape a career.

[scottyquick]

It occurs to me that that was a terrible metaphor to use ...

What I'm saying here is that Bruce has a personal investment in every crime, and that's not healthy mentally, whereas Tim/Steph/Babs/Kate don't (or do, but it's been dealt with in story).

[mystery]

Well, I think that part of the reason the character has stayed so popular over the years is because of how iconic and really, kind of perfect his origin story is. It really resonates with people. And Tim/Steph/Babs/Kate have crime in their backgrounds, too. I guess I'm not seeing quite what you mean by dealt with in the story. It seems to me that all of them have been affected by crime too, seem to be invested in crimefighting, and I'm not seeing how Bruce's investment is less healthy than their own. Steph's investment got her 'killed'. Kate and Tim both experienced the murder of family members.

Tim/Steph/Babs and Kate wouldn't be following/trying to follow in his footsteps except for the character himself (in story) and the popularity of the character's story (on a meta/book-selling level.)

[jaybee3]

I agree. I cut Bruce some slack here (and I don't normally). He is a very screwed up man-child who has been able to hide it very well most of the time with family and comrades, but he really cannot relate to people because he is unable to express his emotions ESPECIALLY with the people who matter most to him. I mean when was the last time we've seen the man cry? When Alfred got well from his poisoning, when Dick survived IC? I forget. Contrast that with Superman or even the more overtly macho Green Arrow and Hal Jordan. Bruce cannot express himself to others and so he acts like a Bat-dick and pushes his loved ones away and this cycle keeps repeating itself over and over again (because the writers seem to like it that).

[mystery]

What? He's a grown man who's working himself pretty hard. We have to see Bruce 'the last time he cried' to verify that he's not a man-child what? Does Superman cry? When? Hee:) Hal Jordan? Ollie Queen? I'm not sure where .... I am so confused right now! :)

[3goodtimes]

Superman: When his dad dies.
Oliver: When he pleas for Dinah's life and when his son is hurt.
Hal: When he's stricken with guilt.

Bruce is a man physically, but trauma stunted his emotional maturity. This is a fairly common thing in psychology. People who are hurt in some way as kids and never process their feelings turn into adults who can't create healthy relationships easily. They're metaphorically children.

[mystery]

So Clark crying when his Pa dies = Bruce should cry more often? What?

I think it was just a crit of Bruce not crying exactly in some certain moment. Doesn't equal child. I don't think Bruce is 'metamorphically a child'.

[3goodtimes]

No. The above user was just trying to point out that even masculine characters cry at appropriate moments. They release feelings because it's healthy. Bruce, for the most part, does not because he has not matured emotionally. He puts on a mask of coldness.

This isn't really crit. It's merely an exploration of his character.

Are you perhaps from a non-English speaking country? Maybe that's why we're having trouble communicating here.

[mystery]

How are we having trouble communicating? I'm saying that just speculating that Clark cried one time in a comic (and so did Hal) does not make Bruce a child for not crying at some other point where somebody kind of thought Bruce ought to cry but didn't.

And heh::) I do appreciate the thoughtfulness--even though I was like, wha? but no/yeah. I'm American.

[jaybee3]

Just to clarify here, the point I was making was less about crying than about using that as a (perhaps) clumsy way of showing that Bruce is less likely to show his emotions (except perhaps anger) than even the most macho of the DC heroes. He holds everything in (there was a good example of this in Booster Gold in the Blackest Night tie-in where Booster's present at Ted's memorial service and though everyone is upset/sad/sympathetic, Booster notices Batman doesn't say anything or express any emotion and yet Booster - he really disliked Bruce at the time for not helping Beetle - knows its really because Batman hold everything, especially his guilt and anguish, inside himself). That was the point I was clumsily trying to make.

[mystery]

I think I get your point. Especially it's something to do with greater than usual emotion and trying to channel it.

[lamashtar]

Don't make make a list of the times Hal Jordan cried...I WILL DO IT.

[3goodtimes]

I would totally read that.

I hope one of them isn't the bat rape in your icon.

[3goodtimes]

Did Bruce cry when Dick survived in Infinite Crisis? I don't recall him doing it then, and I'm curious about it.

[sistermagpie]

I think a lot of people would have done what Bruce did in that situation even if they didn't have his past. I mean, it's just a situation where you look at your kid and can't stand to give them bad news, even if you know it's the right thing. He's not doing the right thing, but this particularly one doesn't, imo, spring from his emotional past or being stunted.

[mystery]

Yeah. I'm just not seeing anything to point to his being emotionally less than an adult or it being about his past. I don't think any parent would want their kid to have to go through that. At all.

[icon_uk]

Again I'd buy that if it weren't for the fact that he has been the primary caregiver for three young men and done pretty well, in most cases.

[bluefall]

Actually he did a pretty shitty job with Jason and Tim (and a really epically shitty job with Cass). He did an awesome job with Dick, sure, but Dick achieved maturity prior to the emergence of Batdick. Pre-Crisis Bruce was actually an adult. Watching canon try to justify this incoherence is alternately hilarious and frustrating as hell, since it so often involves trying to warp Dick into secretly angsty and damaged the way post-Crisis Bruce's kids are.