Fantastic Four 575 Postbag - on the subject of "retard"

[stubbleupdate]

Now, this is the issue that has the line "This is where I buried the Galactus from the future" and kicked off Prime Elements. But, considering the stink that last issue raised here, I figure that people are more concerned with the mailbag, answered by Hickman, not Franklin and Valeria



At least the Hickman art is only small on this one

Tag: Jonathan Hickman, Fantastic Four, Marvel

Comments

[From: colonel_green]

This book even having a letters page really adds to the old-style feel.

[From: bluefall]

I'm surprised they get enough letters to print. Like, even including email.

[From: auggie18]

I wasn't a big fan of a lot of comics in the 90s, but I always enjoyed the letters page. Good to see it having a bit of a comeback.

[From: schmevil]

Me too! I loved reading what other fans had to say, and reading the creator/editorial responses.

Loved the letter pages

[From: jazzypom]

I wish Invincible Iron Man had one, but then my letters mightn't be fit to print.

[From: yaseen101]

You know even though, letter columns are few in number these days, this could be a good use for them. Like addressing certain issues presented here and common criticisms people raise. Yeah, some writers may use it as an opportunity to say 'FUCK YOU!' to the audience but in the long run that's pretty much the equivalent of shooting themselves in the foot and I imagine a good writer can properly address and explain such criticisms. Afterall, it's not just about writing, the creator-audience relationship is important.

[From: queenanthai]

I miss oldschool letterhacks. Who's old enough to remember T.M. Maple? Joe Frank? "Hurricane" Heeran? :)

[From: icon_uk]

Good times... Karen and Alicia Wu too!

[From: darkknightjrk]

Very smart and classy way of putting it on Hickman's part, I do say. :)

[From: thatnickguy]

Hickman just proved himself to be leagues above guys like Dildio and Quesada, and even Millar and Bendis. Because of this class act, alone, I'll continue supporting his work.

[From: bluefall]

I like how the second letter explicitly anticipates Hickman's use of "this is just how kids talk" and tells him it's bogus, and then Hickman goes ahead and says it anyway.

[From: jlbarnett]

because it's not bogus, it's correct.

The arguements about people copying her in the letter is hurt by the fact she's a two year old, not some ultra cool teenager. Who wants to act like a two year old?

[From: seriousfic]

What's the big deal? It's not like anyone went full retard...

*dodges rotten vegetables*

[From: jarodrussell]

In fairness, it could have had a crippling effect on his emotional growth. :-D

[From: jarodrussell]

Come on, calling Franklin that name was the best thing that ever happened to him. Oh, no, sorry, wait, it's only physical disabilities that are the best things that ever happened to people. My mistake. :-p

[From: darkblade]

I really don't see any examples of physical disabilities being portrayed as something positive.

Proffesor Xavier and Oracle the premier disabled heroes both repeatedly looked at their disabilities as a hindrance and a bad thing in almost every way. They just worked around it.

[From: mullon]

I could see a sister calling her brother a retard.

[From: box_in_the_box]

Yeah, bluefall already addressed this.

[From: jarodrussell]

You know, strictly speaking, Valeria wasn't completely wrong calling Franklin a "retard" in that scene. Retarded doesn't just refer to someone who's mentally disabled, it also means "delayed in development." Given that later on in that very issue we see that older-Franklin reactivates younger-Franklin's powers to the levels they should be at, thus undelaying their development, we know for a fact that power levels had been retarded.

So, if you squint, you can kind of fanwank the scene so that she's making a pun based on her having an advanced vocabulary.

[From: box_in_the_box]

By that standard, I look forward to seeing various characters call Northstar "faggot" to his face, and hearing Marvel tell people THAT'S HOW PEOPLE TALK OKAY?

Speaking from experience....

[From: yaseen101]

I don't mind her calling Franklin, a retard. Frankly, I've seen kids getting away by saying/doing even worse things than that even with the best of parents. Kids are ignorant by nature, they don't know the impact of whatever word they use and even the best of parents sometimes don't catch whatever swear word of the week they are using. It's something they stop doing after a parent catches them saying it or they start growing up and learns the nature of the whatever word they are using.

[From: box_in_the_box]

Way to miss the point.

[From: pyrotwilight]

I don't see a problem with it at all. It was a joke between two siblings and both knew it was a joke and wasn't being used in a derogatory way. If it was said by her to someone else or such yeah it would definitely be in bad taste.

[From: jarodrussell]

Valeria can't say "retard" because she's not the Goddamned Batman, that's why.

[From: glprime]

I have to say I also don't think he properly "justified" his reasons for letting it be. Valeria's intelligence and capabilities would honestly require significant structural difference of the brain to a child her age (as is obvious), but the argument he lays out is her being a young girl engaging in "typical" social interaction of her age.

Um, no, her verbal activity is older than her physical age, as is her mental capacity.

That would be saying she's advancing down the mental capability path faster than her body is growing, which if it were true, would probably lead to her being more autistic savant than anything else, lacking in verbal nuance or emotional empathy.

Hickman is basically writing himself into a corner here. He wants a super-smart sibling. Kay. He wants the super-smart sibling to be a prepubescent girl. Kay. He wants her to have behavior patterns akin to adolescence. Whoa.

I'm not ticked he allows her to say "retard" with impunity; it's more irritating he's latched that on to Val's character. It's rather incongruous from where I'm sitting. If she called her brother, "moron," or "neanderthal" you'd get the idea she was mocking her sib's lower (normal) mental capacity, but doing it in her own way.

But the language choice is "because average kids talk that way." But Val's *NOT* like other kids; her unique character setup wouldn't have her behaving like kids of an older age, but something more distinct altogether.

It sure as hell wouldn't be easy to write that kind of Val (least of all make her compelling), but it would be more consistent than this.

[From: ravenous_raven]

"I hate it when kids say mean things to my children. I hate it when they saybad things back, and I hate it when I have to punish them for it, but this is the world...and I choose to right characters who...act like real people."

so...logically, if we assume that Hickman is a "real" person, then the Reeds telling Valerie off would, by that logic, be behaving like "real" parents because they would be doing what Hickman would in that sitchuation. It's certainly an interesting response, but I think Hickman can do more

[From: proteus_lives]

Siblings calling each other names. I can see why everyone is so outraged.
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Not.

[From: scottyquick]

Reading saves lives.

[From: jlbarnett]

I just wanted to point out that anything can be an insult or not one depending on the person speaking and the person listening.

My uncle used to call by dad Homey all the time. I assumed it was his way of calling him buddy. But according to my dad he didn't start doing this until Homey D Clown debuted on In Living Color and as far as my dad was concerned whenever my uncle called him that he was calling him a clown.

[From: zordboy]

In Australia, calling someone a "bastard" is actually complimentary. Your best friend is a total bastard, while your worst enemy is a bit of a bastard.

[From: punishermax]

I'm not really offened by the comment aat all so much at how really weird it was. I mean, it seems like a huge amount of shit he has to wade through just for a throwaway joke.

[From: curlyjo1]

Y'know, they could have just saved themselves a lot of trouble by having her sya "dummy" or "stupid" instead. Kids say those words, too.

[From: jcbaggee]

Yeah, I'm not sure why that comment raised so much ire. Kids, especially siblings, tease each other all the time.

[From: bittercupojoe]

Because scans_daily runs on moral outrage and homoerotic subtext.

Y'know I can see both sides of this but..

[From: steverodgers5]

Does this mean I'm never going to be able to let kids watch Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure or Star Trek 4?

Explanation:-When Bill and Ted hug each other, they break off jokingly calling each other 'fag.' With a big knowing smile on their face..
In Star Trek 4 when Chekov, is caught breaking into the Enterprise, (The airport carrier,) one of the crews upon observing Chekov's perceived crazyness says something like, "Yeah of course he's a russkie, but I think he must be some kind of retard or something!" Which in the theatre I saw it in as a kid raised probably the biggest laugh in the film.

Both were seen as kids films at the time. But man is it weird to think that in this more politically correct age, such scenes wouldn't be allowed in family entertainment anymore..

Not judging. But isn't it astonishing how words can take on more offence as the years go on..(I feel so old!)

Then again I suppose once upon a time, gay just meant being really happy.. ;)

Re: Y'know I can see both sides of this but..

[From: scottyquick]

Where do you see anyone saying "DON'T SHOW YOUR KIDS THIS MOVIE!!!"

[From: anewchallenger]

People saying that children don't use vulgar language aren't ever around children, seems. XBox live, man...

Call of Duty, which little kids shouldn't have access to in the first place, is nothing but suburbanite Tony Montana's, dropping ever racial slur under the book. Faggot seems as valid a tactical term as Oscar Mike, given it's frequency there as well.

I'm visiting home for the holiday, and upon picking up my 12 year old brother from school today, a wee girl stepped outside, must've been 11 or so, and proclaimed "Oh wow, it's FUCKING cold out here!" Now I'm from Jersey, where people did indeed talk like an episode of the sopranos, but my parents have since retired to Texas... if it's happening here, well...

His explanation that as a writer he's striving to write dialogue authentically isn't a cop-out though, not in the least. Real people say and do a myriad of unpleasant things. That's the world we live in. By attaching safety filters to things like literature we're only giving those people the power to dilute art where normally they'd serve to enhance it's connection back to history.

Valeria isn't a role model - she's a callous little white girl. I'd honestly expect worse.