sherkahn: Monarch from the Venture Brothers (The Monarch)
[personal profile] sherkahn posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Ahoy, kiddies. There be dragons here. Or spoilers (without images from the book itself) galore here.

Batman and Robin #10 came out, and to quote the Joker in The Dark Knight, "You do not disappoint".

I must acknowledge the serious homework others have done on behalf this topic, so here is the link to the Quinnhop, among others, over at the CBR boards. He's put most of this together as to where Morrison is using previous stories as springboards to this tale.

DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVE NOT READ Batman and Robin #10!!! No scans from the comics itself behind the cut, but plenty of spoilers.

You have been warned.

So, it looks like Morrison has had a purpose the entire time since before R.I.P., and he has been deep into the mythology.

From Quinnhop:

    "Hurt is Thomas Wayne, after all.

    In RIP, Morrison referenced a wonderful French novel by the name of La-Bas, or "The Damned" as it has since been translated into English. Guess what it's about.

    Gille de Rais and the history of DEVIL WORSHIP in 15th to 19th Century France. De Rais's ultimate goal was to summon the Devil, but, whenever they attempted it, something went terribly wrong. The men around him -- his assistants in the evocation -- would die terrible deaths.

    Now, this is where I need you all to pay attention. Gille de Rais wasn't just anybody. He was the closest ally of none other than Joan of Arc. Yes. He was virtually a saint. A most pious soldier of God, Gille de Rais was the kind of man one would have hoped to have been. He was a paragon of goodness.

    Until Joan was killed.

    Then, his spirit was ruined. He turned to Satanism. A complete 180 of personality and beliefs, the noblest spirit of 15th Century France was turned into a child murderer, rapist, and definitive Satanist of his day. He killed hundreds of children, some estimates as high as the thousands.

    Furthermore, the novel is filled with references to Catholicism. It actually has a sequel in which the main character of the original novel converts to the religion, tracing the path of his conversion. If the first novel is his decent, the second is his recovery. Morrison's run on "Batman and Robin" has been similarly full of Catholic references, especially in regards to El Penitente and his drug cartel.

    Where am I going with all of this?

    Thomas Wayne, Doctor Hurt, El Penitente, The Black Glove.


    Why does this character want so badly to ruin Bruce Wayne? Why does he seek to destroy the Batman? Because, like with Gille de Rais, it would be the ultimate statement. The ultimate expression of the Devil's ability to manipulate humanity. The ultimate conversion of goodness into evil. An encore to the original Fall, it would show the infallibility of Satan.

    So now I'm left to wonder. Is Thomas Wayne actually Satan? Or is Thomas Wayne currently possessed by Satan? Or, what I'm beginning to believe more and more, is Thomas Wayne looking to summon the Devil, once more? And, if he is, wouldn't the ultimate sacrifice be, not one of blood, but one of character. One of virtue. Wouldn't the best possible gift to his dark master be the Batman? The utter ruination of the most noble spirit known to man."


    "Demon's Mentioned
    - Barbatos is shown on the wall of the Satanic Bat-Cave.

While I do not agree that the evil is Satan, it may be the demon that has been laying around Gotham for a while, Barbatos. And Thomas Wayne is his servant/priest.

Also of note, from FHIZ:

    -He points out that if arranged chronologically, the portraits of the Wayne ancestors (we see them in RIP, when Gordon is going through out the house) tell a "story"

    -There is one missing, between Mordecai and Darius Wayne. The missing painting is of one Thomas Wayne, the "black sheep" of the Wayne family. HE IS NOT BRUCE'S DAD, HE IS A WAYNE ANCESTOR WITH THE SAME NAME He lead a satanic cult and apparently summoned a Bat-demon of the "miagani" tribe, and there were numerous "bloody bargains" made, as the stories are told.

I'll leave the other astonishing revelations to others to post.

suggested tags:

char: Batman/Bruce Wayne
char: Robin IV/Damien Wayne
char: Nightwing/Dick Grayson

writer: Grant Morrison
art: Andy Clark

Date: 2010-03-11 12:04 am (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
Ok... im a little confused, the summations made in the begining seem interesting and probably true in a way. only thing that bothers me about that would be, why would Thomas Wayne be this paragon of good in gotham only to sully his own name later... woudnt it have been easier to do that while he was alive? (but what evs, suspension of disbelief.

what i am more interested in is the family portraits? id ont remember these....

Date: 2010-03-11 12:14 am (UTC)
ext_415948: (Default)
From: [identity profile]
It is possible that Thomas Wayne the "saint" turned his back on society after a citizen of the very city that he was saving murdered his wife and (I guess) almost killed him, much in the same way that Gille de Rais turned to satanism after Joan of Arc was killed.

I don't really see a story in the portraits, but Mordecai Wayne sure looks an awful lot like Pilgrim Batman from Return of Bruce Wayne.

Date: 2010-03-11 12:32 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Isn't that pretty much already the story of the Arkham family that Morrison used in "Arkham Asylum"?

Date: 2010-03-11 12:42 am (UTC)
ext_415948: (Default)
From: [identity profile]
Maybe the two families are connected somehow? I wouldn't put that past Morrison.

Date: 2010-03-11 12:30 am (UTC)
foxhack: (Default)
From: [personal profile] foxhack
"The missing painting is of one Thomas Wayne, the "black sheep" of the Wayne family. HE IS NOT BRUCE'S DAD, HE IS A WAYNE ANCESTOR WITH THE SAME NAME."


Date: 2010-03-11 12:09 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
To be honest I have no interest in the notion that the Wayne family has long been involved with the occult, supernatural and bats.

It lessens Bruce's choice by making it less about "I am making a personal choice about my destiny based on random events" and more about "just following in the footsteps of an ancestor I know nothing about."

It's like making Peter Parker the Spider-totem. Was that a needed idea? Or even interesting to the point it added anything substantive to the Spider-Man mythos?

And as for Gotham connected demons we do already have Barbatos, as well as Mr Whisper (A Morrison creation who sold his soul to the devil) and more recently Dr Gotham from Shadowpact.

Date: 2010-03-11 12:20 am (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
i actually liked the Spider-totem angle.

its still his personal choice. still his decision to become spider-man,

it doesn't really matter if it was the fates that lead to that bite, or random chance. what is important was that he chose to become spider-man.... and sell his marriage to the devil destroying thier chances of having a child, and erasing years of character developement just so that he can have sex... oh sorry i mean make out... with lots of girls. (it's spider-man that has sex with his mask on.... peter just makes out with girls....)

hmmm didnt realize i was still bitter about that.

Date: 2010-03-11 02:07 am (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
More to the point, it doesn't matter if it was Peter's decision to become Spider-Man, because he made that decision out of wanting to make money and go around acting like a big jerky jerkpants. It was Peter's decision after that, to make Spider-Man a hero, that actually counts for something and that a Spider-Totem or whatever didn't and couldn't have made for him.

Date: 2010-03-11 04:13 am (UTC)
cf105: (Science Content)
From: [personal profile] cf105
I just realized that BND is actually something Peter would do. He first became Spiderman after not stopping a robber who killed his Uncle thus sending him on the guilt trip that ended with a mask. Realizing that he could still do something for his Aunt is what made him sell the Marriage. Its still a selfish dick move but Spidey is a selfish dick. He's only a hero because of the guilt from uncle Ben.

Wow that thought got away from me quick.

On topic I do kind of like the Spidey totem angle as it gives some sense of destiny to the whole deal, same as I like the sense of Bruce's family being involved in the occult. The Waynes corrupted Gotham through industry and their last son is trying to change the legacy of centuries. It works for me.

Date: 2010-03-11 12:24 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] zordboy
But wasn't the Spider-totem thing retconned?

Or at the very least, does anyone even talk about it these days?

If there's a Bat-totem revealed, I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

Date: 2010-03-11 01:14 am (UTC)
darkblade: (Default)
From: [personal profile] darkblade
It was briefly touched upon at the start of Assault on New Olympus but the same scene said Wolverine is a modern form of the leader of the Immortal Hunt from Celtic mythology and Spider-Woman is Kali.

As something of an Anansi myth fanboy I found myself liking the idea behind the Spider totem before it degraded into pretentious symbolism.

Date: 2010-03-11 01:33 am (UTC)
jelly_ace: (tea)
From: [personal profile] jelly_ace
I, for one, would be interested in a Bat-totem. Of my own, that is.

Date: 2010-03-11 12:33 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Except he was scienced INTO the situation by the Omega Beams, which were intended to bounce him through time and space and increase despair IIRC.

Date: 2010-03-11 12:37 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] zordboy
The Omega Beams? From the god Darkseid?

I wouldn't exactly call that being "scienced" into a situation, mind.

Date: 2010-03-11 12:56 am (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
to be fair, Fourth World science has been described as being pretty much "made-up words"

Date: 2010-03-11 01:00 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
It pretty much is. The Apokaliptians have always been shown as being tech-based, not sorcery based.

Super-advanced tech to be sure, taken to a level where circuitry meets metaphysics in the form of the Mother Box true (And Lord only knows what The Source" truly was, but Darkseid and Co have never been shown to be spellcasters or mystics, they use their own energy manipulating powers, and machinery, not wands, or rituals, or the invoking of the names of other beings.

Date: 2010-03-11 04:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Isn't Darkseid's mother the sorceress Heggra?

Date: 2010-03-11 08:08 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Haven't heard her referred to as a sorceress, and she seemed to be prefer poisons to magic. Perhaps she's a sorceress the same way Amazing Grace is an enchantress.

Date: 2010-03-11 08:29 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] aegof
Magic and divinity are really closely linked in DC. Circe is a powerful sorceress (at least partially) because she stole the power of a god. A war in Hell messes up magic for everyone. And so on.

And why can't their motherboxes and power rods and whatever else be the New Godian equivalent of Zeus' aegis or Thor's hammer or Excalibur?

Honestly, I'd just say the New Gods are magical by virtue of being gods. But then I think drawing real lines between science and magic with superheroes is pretty silly; DC's biggest sci-fi heroes are well-summed up with the phrase "magic wish ring," after all.

Date: 2010-03-11 10:40 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Oh it's a fine, fine line (.. between love, and a waste of time. Ahem, sorry, channelling my inner Avenue Q for a moment)

Clarkes Third Law "Any sufficiently advanced science will be indistinguishable from magic" definitely applies, but to me, the sheer amount of tech used on the Fourth World makes it "not-magic".

IMHO, if anyone can physically REPAIR a broken piece of equipment, with tools it's tech not magic. :)

Date: 2010-03-11 02:28 am (UTC)
hatman: HatMan, my alter ego and face on the 'net (Default)
From: [personal profile] hatman

Also, just generally about this storyline... WIF???

Date: 2010-03-11 12:15 am (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
...what? Wait, what has been confirmed in the issue?

Date: 2010-03-11 05:59 am (UTC)
ninjapeps: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ninjapeps
putting behind spoiler tags just in case:

they've pretty much solidly confirmed the whole "Bruce is stuck in the past" thing implied by the end of Final Crisis.

at one point, Dick, Damian and Alfred are look at various Wayne ancestors and one of them pointed out a lot of them had an uncanny resemblance to Bruce. also, when they followed where the portraits were facing/pointing, it led them to another Batcave under Wayne manor that none of them was aware of.

right now, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that Oberon Sexton is really Bruce Wayne.

Date: 2010-03-11 12:22 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] zordboy
So the Thomas Wayne (who might be Doctor Hurt) isn't Bruce's dad? Aww. I liked that idea. It was just so wonderfully insane.

But Morrison tends to plan long-term when he has a series to play with. Your theories here wouldn't surprise me.

Date: 2010-03-11 12:30 am (UTC)
foxhack: (Default)
From: [personal profile] foxhack
I don't get it.

So the guy might be Thomas Wayne. But is it Bruce's dad or the ancestor that has his same name? Your post's last paragraph confuses me.

Date: 2010-03-11 05:42 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
The ancestor. Not entirely rare for old families like that to reuse names like that.

Date: 2010-03-11 12:44 am (UTC)
mullon: (Old Bruce)
From: [personal profile] mullon
So the whole thing's a reference to a semi-obscure french novel? Whatever. I wasn't impressed when he did a crappy ripoff of "And Then There Were None" and I'm not impressed now.

Date: 2010-03-11 10:42 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Rip off... homage. PoTAYto, PoTAHto half the time.

"Forbidden Planet" is "The Tempest" in space, "West Wide Story" is "Romeo and Juliet" in contemporary New York. It's all in the style.

Date: 2010-03-11 01:00 am (UTC)
stig: "It Was A Boojum..." (Default)
From: [personal profile] stig
Wait, I just checked up on that in RIP. In the panel, Gordon is standing in front of a labelled "Silas Wayne" and "Mordecai Wayne", but there's no Darius, nor any missing portrait.

While I agree with the Satanism angle - and certainly, the uncanny nature of Dr. Hurt is increased when we consider that he may be T. Wayne - I think this guy may be reaching a little.

Date: 2010-03-11 05:43 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
Maybe Daniel wasn't in the loop/Morrison didn't think of putting that detail in the script?

Date: 2010-03-11 06:35 pm (UTC)
stig: "It Was A Boojum..." (Default)
From: [personal profile] stig
Nah, 'twas my mistake - the post refers not to their portrayal in RIP but in B&R #10, when Alfred has put the portraits back in the right order.

Date: 2010-03-11 01:27 am (UTC)
rdfox: Joker asking Tim Drake, "'Sup?" from Paul Dini's "Slay Ride" (Default)
From: [personal profile] rdfox
...yeah, still not impressed, still not interested in reading it. To borrow a phrase from Bart Simpson, "It's craptacular."

Date: 2010-03-11 02:11 am (UTC)
queenanthai: (Default)
From: [personal profile] queenanthai
...I'm lost.

Date: 2010-03-11 05:46 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
It's saying that Hurt is Thomas Wayne, an ancestor from the 1700s or so, who was a leader of a satanic cult and tried (and probably succeeded) in raising up demons and became one of them, thus being able to live as long as he has.

Date: 2010-03-11 03:14 am (UTC)
catey: (Default)
From: [personal profile] catey
I think its pretty safe to say that Mordecai Wayne is Bruce. While reading this issue I was more focused on this Oberon Sexton... I keep wondering if he's Bruce, or if he's the Joker. Too much rational to be the Joker, but since his costume hides every inch of his body, it could be useful to hide his bleach white skin... But if he's Bruce, it would explain why he's helping Damian and Dick... And he does act all mysterious aroud them...
Personally I kept staring at that big "W" carved on the last page. W for Wayne obviously... But who bears the mark? Bruce? Hurt?

Arrgh! Too many questions!!

Date: 2010-03-11 05:47 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
If I remember right, in #6 we see Hurt again while talking on the phone to Sexton, and he has the W carved on his back.

Date: 2010-03-11 03:35 am (UTC)
lencannon: shy guy (Default)
From: [personal profile] lencannon
I dunno about this, but I'd believe it. Batman RIP had such a fever pitch of terror for me by the penultimate issue I'm willing to believe any terrifying theory.

Date: 2010-03-11 03:41 am (UTC)
sistermagpie: Classic magpie (Default)
From: [personal profile] sistermagpie
*rolls eyes even though it's childish*

Date: 2010-03-11 04:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I think Gille de Rais was already used in Dead Boy Detectives.

Date: 2010-03-11 07:16 am (UTC)
darkblade: (Default)
From: [personal profile] darkblade
Let's put two peices of information we know together.

1) A long lost member of the Wayne family from the 1700s may have had something to do with summoning a bat demon.

2) A member of the Wayne family from the modern era that has a tendacy to dress as a giant bat that has more than once been refered to as a demon by the criminals he scares has been displaced in time.

There is an obvious conclusion to draw here.

Date: 2010-03-11 12:35 pm (UTC)
kingrockwell: (nee & tot)
From: [personal profile] kingrockwell
Yeah, I think anything bat-oriented that's introduced to the family's past is pretty easily something Bruce put there on his journey forward.

Date: 2010-03-11 04:18 pm (UTC)
dimwit90: Robins Together! (Default)
From: [personal profile] dimwit90
Ugh this doesn't make me want to read Batman and Robin and made me not want to buy the Return of Bruce Wayne :(


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