benicio127: (Terry Frank Miller)
[personal profile] benicio127 posting in [community profile] scans_daily

From the Emerald City Comic Con DC panel:

The first question jumped into the recent controversy over the death of Lian Harper, the young daughter of Speedy who was recently killed in "Cry for Justice," when a female fan expressed her displeasure with the "fridging" of the character:

James Robinson: "That decision [was] a controversial and one that I know has been greeted with some displeasure by some people... I'm sorry if it upset people. In all honesty, they wanted to kill Speedy too, and I said no, so give me some credit for that."

Ian Sattler: "I'm happy it upset people because it means that the story had some weight and emotion."



Suggested tags: char: speedy/red arrow/arsenal/roy harper, char: lian harper, title: outsiders, creator: Judd Winick

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Date: 2010-03-14 06:33 pm (UTC)
bwhahahabeck: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bwhahahabeck
Um, I think people are more upset with these types of deaths since it was completely unnecessary and dumb as opposed to having a big emotional impact.

Date: 2010-03-14 06:42 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] mr_austin
So the story had the weight and emotion of a brick. That's still not very subtle or something that requires superb craftsmanship and certainly not something anyone likes to have thrown in their face.

Someone needs to spell out to the hacks at DC and Marvel alike the difference between tragedy porn and tragedy.

I'm loathe to use io9 here because for a sci-fi blog it seems very coldly calculated and marketed and not something done for the love of sci-fi, but it had a decent article outlining the differences between the two.

Osiris getting eaten by Sobek in 52? Disturbing and tragic, but a clear piece of a larger thematic whole and rather original for a superhero book to have a total innocent's naivete act as his own downfall.

I was pissed they got rid of Osiris, who was a damn interesting character with clear creative potential, but his death served a clear purpose that added nuance as well as being shocking and tragic.

Lian getting murdered? What was the point in the larger thematic whole? The concept that there is a line at which JUSTICE must be drawn, and if so where?


DC chose Lian precisely because she had a clear fanbase and was an innocent without considering WHY she had a fanbase and whether or not her death would mean anything other than another excuse for a long-established character to mope over whether or not murder is ever justified.

It's cheap, it's lazy, and it's tragedy porn.

You can go fuck yourself Ian Sattler.

Date: 2010-03-14 06:44 pm (UTC)
ext_171733: (Default)
From: [identity profile]
Thanks for the spoiler ^%$#^%$*!

Date: 2010-03-14 06:44 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
No Mr Satler, it didn't just upset people, it PISSED THEM OFF and put them off buying other comics. That's a fail right there.

Date: 2010-03-14 07:02 pm (UTC)
greenygal: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenygal
"I'm happy it upset people because it means that the story had some weight and emotion."

I haven't even read Cry For Justice, nor am I going to, but let me clarify: no. No it really doesn't. Some writers honestly seem to believe that if people have any kind of emotional reaction to their writing, it means they did something right--and it might, but it might just as well mean that you totally screwed up and they're furious or horrified or upset because of that. And it's especially the case in comics, because you're often building off of the work that other people have done to get the readers emotionally invested. When you kill off a character who readers already cared about before your story even started, of course they're going to get upset. That fact by itself says nothing at all about the quality of your story.

Date: 2010-03-14 07:08 pm (UTC)
cmdr_zoom: (oops)
From: [personal profile] cmdr_zoom
Oh well GOSH, that makes it all better.

Date: 2010-03-14 07:11 pm (UTC)
suzene: (Default)
From: [personal profile] suzene
"I'm happy it upset people because it means that the story had some weight and emotion."

*sigh* If most people are mad at the characters, you have managed a story with weight and emotion. If people are pissed off at the writers, probably not so much.

Date: 2010-03-14 07:12 pm (UTC)
irrelevant: (buttload of darkness)
From: [personal profile] irrelevant
I have this long-held theory that after Jason Todd's murder, comic writers started believing they could kill off characters with impunity and the fans would just take it sitting down.

Lian is like the culmination of this belief.

Date: 2010-03-14 07:27 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (Angry Cap)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
"I'm happy it upset people because it means that the story had some weight and emotion."

Yeah, I think if I wrote and published a comic that was entirely Superman pooping on hamsters, people would be upset. (Not least DC's lawyers.) That wouldn't make the comic good.

Upsetting people is pretty damn easy, stop acting like it's somehow challenging or a marker of quality.

Date: 2010-03-14 07:29 pm (UTC)
busterella: (He can breathe in space)
From: [personal profile] busterella

Date: 2010-03-14 07:34 pm (UTC)
requiem2adream: (Default)
From: [personal profile] requiem2adream
Way to misread fan reaction, Sattler. Bravo. Bravo.

Also, that one page posted up there has more 'weight and emotion' to it than anything I saw from Cry for Justice.

I guess once again I'm going to be pinning all my hopes on a retcon that probably won't ever happen.

Date: 2010-03-14 07:42 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] hybrid2
More and more DC and Marvel keep mistaking 'weight and emotion' with making the fans angry.

'weight and emotion' is suposse to be directed at what's hapening in the comics Not wanting to punch the creator in the face.

Ok,I would'nt actualy hit him but I certeinly would'nt pretend to like him as a human being.

Date: 2010-03-14 08:16 pm (UTC)
thebigapricot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thebigapricot
Who is the "they" that wanted kill Speedy? DiDio? Johns?

Date: 2010-03-14 08:28 pm (UTC)
sistermagpie: Classic magpie (Default)
From: [personal profile] sistermagpie
No, actually the story *didn't* have weight and emotion. Note that nobody's angry at Prometheus AT ALL. They're angry at THE WRITERS for something they see as a cheap editorial stunt with no meaning beyond "let's fridge somebody to give Ollie and Roy a reason to go on a rampage."

Date: 2010-03-14 08:42 pm (UTC)
cloud_wolf: rearshot of robin!damian, batgirl!steph and red robin!tim (wonder woman and her lasso)
From: [personal profile] cloud_wolf
Geoff Johns on the possibility of a "Green Lantern" animated series: "There's a very, very good chance. But maybe."

Y'know, that's actually not a bad idea at all (assuming it's about the whole corps and not just Hal Jordan). The whole Green Lantern Corps idea is pretty cool but I could never quite understand the whole convoluted backstory. A fresh new cartoon could make something good out of it. But I'd also like a Wondy cartoon.

Date: 2010-03-14 09:10 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] hyperactivator
No. Just no. You don't get to pretend that this reaction ment the story was good.

If the story was good we would be pissed off at the villain of the story.

We are pissed off at you!

We know all the tricks now and we saw the cards up your sleaves when you pulled this and we didn't fall for it.

You can see the zipper!

Mod Note

Date: 2010-03-14 09:24 pm (UTC)
sandoz_iscariot: Rorschach, a masked vigilante in a fedora, says "HURM."  His hat says "MOD" (Watchmen: MOD FEDORA)
From: [personal profile] sandoz_iscariot
As the final issue of Cry for Justice is a new issue, details about the ending are spoilers and need to be marked and put behind a cut.

Date: 2010-03-14 10:46 pm (UTC)
joasakura: (Default)
From: [personal profile] joasakura
No NO NONOno. this is the little kid tantrum school of getting attention "Look! We made people upset! they're paying attention to us! YAY!"



Date: 2010-03-14 10:56 pm (UTC)
seriousfic: (Default)
From: [personal profile] seriousfic
Ian Sattler: "I'm happy it upset people because it means that the story had some weight and emotion."

Date: 2010-03-14 11:20 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
no, I will not give you credit for that. They should have killed Speedy instead. The AIDS plot can never go anywhere because AIDS takes time to kill. So better to let her have a heroic death and save the kid.

The only emotional impact it had was "Damn, I'm pissed DC's editors were stupid enough to do this."

Date: 2010-03-14 11:27 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] cuntfucius
Ian, you're basically coming out of the closet as a troll!! You like upsetting people and getting reactions out of them!! Awesome, except not.

The story failed because, as mentioned upthread, it made people angry at the writers ...not Prometheus. At all.

Robinson is someone ... I feel bad for. I know James somewhat and not only does he not seem really proud of this story (not that that...saves him or excuses him from his terrible writing), but almost everything he did that was ridiculous (aside from the ... pointlessness and the stupid misogyny) when it came to fridging was mandated at him to do. He didn't just come up with killing Lian and think it was going to be dark and cool. He was told it needed to happen to put Roy in a certain place, story-wise.

Of course this still means dialogue wise, execution wise, and characterization wise he still wrote one of the worst stories that has popped up in DC in the past decade :) bravo.

DC really doesn't learn from their mistakes though, right? Ugh. Can't believe Sattler said that. Except I can.

Oh well, at least this week's GLC had an awesome teaser at the con!!! More fridge meta!!

Date: 2010-03-15 12:10 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
Okay, the writers and editors seem to have gotten all their stock answers. Have the fans come up with stock responses?

For example, here on Scans Daily the stock response to "if we got a reaction it's good" as the reaction is against the writers and editors not the characters, is a good one. But do they ever hear it?

Date: 2010-03-15 12:16 am (UTC)
jeyl: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jeyl
"they wanted to kill Speedy too, and I said no, so give me some credit for that."

No, no, no. Heck no. NO! I refuse to give you credit for that. NO!

Date: 2010-03-15 12:53 am (UTC)
sweettart1823: (Arrow Family)
From: [personal profile] sweettart1823

That's all I can think of to say to that...

whoops, I got my Speedys mixed up

Date: 2010-03-15 01:03 am (UTC)
3goodtimes: (oliver)
From: [personal profile] 3goodtimes
WTF x10000

I'm glad Robinson put his foot down on Mia. Jesus Christ. Let's hope other authors remain firm as well.

I'm happy it upset people because it means that the story had some weight and emotion.

There's a difference between provoking emotion by exploiting the death of a child and evoking emotion through powerful and effective storytelling. So eff you, Sattler.

I guess the series has weight. Sort of like the cinderblocks tied to a mob victim in the bottom of a trash-filled river.
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