Norman Osborn's Childhood

[cyberghostface]

I posted this during the InsaneJournal era, but with Siege coming to an end, I figured it might be interesting to revisit...

This one comes from Peter Parker Spider-Man #25.

Comments

[From: jlroberson]

This actually makes me hate him more. Because nothing angers me more than a father who passes his abuse to his son.

[From: cyberghostface]

Norman never abused Harry. He was far from a model father in a lot of respects, but that wasn't one of them.

[From: cyberghostface]

I think he might have struck Harry once (in the Spectacular #14 annual) but a lot of it was more along the lines of "I don't have time for you" and "When are you going to be a man?" as opposed to what Norman's father did to him--I.E. what amounted to mental torture.

[From: lamashtar]

Harry's story to AA was an example of 'no hitting' abuse.

[From: felinephoenix]

Abuse doesn't have to be physical. Trust me.

[From: lonewolf23k]

There's more then one kind of abuse. In Norman's case, the abuse was more emotional then physical.

[From: jlroberson]

Emotional abuse and neglect count. Believe me. I know.

[From: quicksilver]

This reminds me a lot of the beginning of Jane Eyre, when she's locked in her uncle's bedroom. [/passing observation that adds nothing to the discussion]

[From: lamashtar]

There's a plotbunny for the next noncon Norman/Harry..

[From: mullon]

That's kind of bad, albeit cliche. But that doesn't even come close to excusing the shit he's pulled.

[From: starwolf_oakley]

It's sometimes hard to tell how bad Norman was *before* he got exposed to the Green Goblin Formula. The big "Norman Osborne is the Green Goblin" story seemed to say that Norman was a workaholic, but not really a "bad" father. It was just when he went Goblin juice-happy that things got "bad."

[From: foxhack]

I'd say the Goblin formula brought back all those repressed memories and drove him crazy.

I like to think Norman was damaged, maybe mean - but not truly evil - until he used the formula.

[From: starwolf_oakley]

A lot of Marvel supervillains are like that, especially Spider-man foes. Otto Octavius had his problems and hang-ups, but only the accident made him full on bat-poopy crazy as Dr. Octopus.

[From: kagome654]

I think other stories have implied that while both Harry and Norman occasionally claim that they had a good relationship prior to the Goblin formula explosion they're both just repressing and deluding themselves. Norman wasn't just a largely absent and aloof father, he was verbally, emotionally and sometimes physically abusive. Harry was just so desperate for a relationship with him that he'd cling to and embellish any positive interaction they had together in order to sort of manufacture a happy childhood.

It was always a pretty toxic, unhealthy relationship.

[From: felinephoenix]

This. It's the saddest part of their relationship, in my opinion. (Well, next to Harry coming this close screwing his son's life up with Goblin craziness.)

[From: skalja]

Speaking of, is anyone else sick of Normie's treatment of his Spider-Man action figure being used as visual shorthand for his mental state? It was powerful symbolism the first time, you guys -- TWENTY YEARS AGO.

[From: felinephoenix]

You are definitely not the only one.* 'Course, I'm also pretty sick of the "Normie hates Spider-Man" thing anyway. Hasn't he outgrow that already? In fact, haven't we had three stories or so about Normie outgrowing that?

* However, I do make an exception for that Toy Spider-Girl/Glider Launcher MC2!Normie made one time, because that cracked me up.

[From: skalja]

Wait, what issue was that?

[From: felinephoenix]

The one whose number I... can't remember. That issue where we get to see all of May's friends have silly fantasies? And Normie's not-so-silly fantasy about defeating May. One of the really early issues.

If I recall correctly, he even carries Toy May in his pocket. Yet, surprisingly, he does not decapitate her.

[From: skalja]

Ah yes, THAT issue. Thanks!

[From: starwolf_oakley]

That delusion goes both ways. When Norman forgets he's the Green Goblin, he's very concerned about Harry.

The first amnesia has Norman worrying about Harry's high school science project. The Green Goblin seeing Harry bedridden and spaced on LSD causes Norman to start weeping and saying "Nothing must happen to my boy." Finally, stress over Harry causes Norman to "go Goblin" and kill Gwen.

Prior to ONE MORE DAY, Norman's motivation for masterminding the Clone Saga was rage/grief over Harry's "death." Then BRAND NEW DAY revealed Norman and Mysterio faked Harry's death, but that's another topic.

[From: felinephoenix]

True. Norman did love his son, which a lot of writers forget. Although he expressed that love in twisted, abusive ways most of the time. It's one of the many, many things I wish hadn't been forgotten during BND over the years.

I find a grieving father (who's in DEEP denial about how much he screwed up his son) a much more frightening opponent for Spidey than the cliche ubervillian Norman's become. That said, seeing Harry actually kind of/sort of stand up to his dad was kind of nice. I'll give the BND team that.

[From: skalja]

Sometimes Norman is trying to replace Harry with Peter; other times he's blaming Peter for Harry's death and sometimes he's in love with Peter. Either way it works better if Norman does care about Harry and is trying to "fix" that relationship using Peter as a proxy.

[From: jlroberson]

Norman was already sociopathic. Consider what he did to that one scientist working for him. With a smirk.

It's just that the serum removed any rationality from the mix, and made him basically super-bipolar. (if these things can give you superpowers, why not also super-disorders?)

[From: bradhanon]

Huh, that's not how I recall the storyline. I remember a lot of emphasis on how Harry is made by his father to feel miserable and inadequate basically ALL THE TIME. That winds up being the basis of Peter and Harry's friendship, as Peter's the only one who'll listen to Harry talk about his problems with his dad.

I could be misremembering, but that falls into "bad father" category for me.

[From: felinephoenix]

I don't think it's supposed to excuse Norman. Humanize him, sure, but not excuse him. (Personally, I've never understood why people think writers are using Norman's abusive childhood as an "excuse. Maybe it's just me, but I find Norman a million times more horrifying when he's written a human side.)

[From: starwolf_oakley]

Maybe they see it as an excuse as to how Norman treated Harry. How Norman treats Peter is just Goblin Formula craziness.

[From: felinephoenix]

Maybe... like jlrobertson points out, though, it's not really an excuse for what Norman did to Harry.

[From: starwolf_oakley]

Abuse can go in cycles. Its not an excuse or even a reason, it just is.

Paul Jenkins and other writers can assume that if Norman was abusive to Harry (prior to Goblin Formula nuttiness), then Norman's own father was abusive to Norman in some way. It's not a huge leap in logic.

I could be wrong, but there hasn't been a lot of "Norman was an abusive bastard to Harry" flashbacks. It seems to mostly be either Norman ignoring Harry or (in the case of a BND flashback) Norman wanting Harry to "toughen up."

[From: felinephoenix]

Um. I don't think we're disagreeing here. At all.

Norman coming from an abusive family makes a lot of sense. Jenkins and other writers were right in exploring that, and I think it's the most logical explanation for why he treats Harry the way he does. (Which is, as others have pointed out, abusive. No, he didn't go to the extreme of accidentally killing his son like Ultimate!Norman but it was still abuse.)

All I meant was that it doesn't "excuse" Norman from his actions, like some other posters have said. Does it explain what Norman's done and the man he became? In part, I think. But it's no excuse. Many children from abusive families do manage to break the cycle. (Or turn into crazy psychopaths in costume.)

[From: skalja]

I find it interesting how Norman redefines his relationship to Peter to suit his craziness of the moment. Sometimes (as in this storyline), Peter's his surrogate son and true heir, a replacement for Harry the "failure." Other times he treats Peter not just as an opponent/rival, but as a rival head of household. Thus he justifies killing baby May as fair retaliation for Peter having "killed" Harry. (Of course that scene was written pre-BND.)