Gail Simone's Wonder Woman and Devin Grayson's Inheritance

[3goodtimes]

I apologize in advance for the wonky scans. I got them from Ends of the Earth and The Circle which you should buy if you have the means. They're really wonderful.

Tom Tresser is laid up in the hospital and Diana comes to visit him.

He kind of looks like an aging boy band member with that hair.






How lovely is that panel of Diana stroking Tom's cheek?

Ugh, scan fail ahead!

Has Diana ever been written with a woman? If not, she should be at some point.

Later, Diana takes Tom on her magical seashell (lolcomics) to Themyscira to meet Hippolyta. She instructs him to be completely honest and he manages to make a good impression. Love Diana's expression in the third panel here.



Tom is almost killed by a Griffin. Then Hippolyta asks if he's been intimate with Diana yet.


Some moms bake muffins, other moms craft deadly weaponry! My mom's muffins could probably qualify as deadly weapons.


And now I'm imagining a much more harrowing version of The Drew Carey Show.


Now, I know there are emotional implications in that line about feeling (as well as some foreshadowing), but is Diana speaking literally too? Is her skin extra tough so she can't feel touch as much as other people? I was slightly confused by that line. Wonder Woman experts, maybe you can help me there.

suck my diiiick!! im a shark!


Three reasons I love those scenes: One, I find them incredibly fucking cute and feel no shame in enjoying cute in my comics. Two, Amazonian ritual fascinates me. When Diana is well-written in the JLA, I often feel she steals the show. But in her own title, I'm sometimes far more intrigued by her sisters, their history, and their traditions. And three, I would love to court a guy. Wouldn't that be great? I've never understood the appeal of being wooed, but when I thought about it from the other direction, I totally get it. More guys should concede to being courted with gifts and sweetness and pulling out chairs. And friendship bracelets.

I'm sad the short-lived romance of Tom and Diana didn't work out. :(

On a totally separate note, I recently finished Inheritance by Devin Grayson and it was just... just horrible, you guys. Maybe this is old news. Maybe you liked it and I'm once again the odd man out. If that's the case, you probably shouldn't read on. I don't think I could cringe more if I watched my grandmother in a porno. /steals joke



It's not the gay subtext (though it was barely subtext here) that bothered me. Heck, I love gay subtext! The more the merrier! However, I was so creeped out by the manner in which she wrote it. It was all pedo-y (not in a fun Golden Age way) and menacing and the characterization was off. I mean, I seriously missed Cry for Justice Ollie whilst reading this book's version of Ollie. It was that bad. The internal monologue-ing was drawn out and bizarre. She spent two paragraphs explaining in detail why Nightwing noticed Aquaman's lack of beard. From Arthur's perspective (although it's hard to tell since the perspectives change abruptly and at random). Which makes no damn sense for the character. That's just the first example of OOC weirdness out of many. I love her work on most comics but yeesh. This book, guys. THIS BOOK. IT BURNS LIKE TWILIGHT.

I cannot wait until Rucka's No Man's Land comes in the mail so I can erase Inheritance from my mind.

Putting that aside... have you all read any DC novels? Any recommendations or just general thoughts on what you've dipped into?

(PS: To the person awaiting Ragdoll scans, I promise I'm almost done gathering them!)

Comments

[bluefall]

From the Themysciran perspective, as this storyline presents it, the whole ritual is the question; if he didn't want it, she expected him to say so. Which cultural mismatch is of course the whole point of the story, apparently. Whether you're willing to accept Diana is that obtuse after more than a decade amongst us is, of course, a valid issue, but also a tangential one.

She is also kind of unilateral by personality already, though, which is a fairly common trait in leaders in general and superheroes in particular just by nature of the job. Her line "Ultimately, it's my decision," followed by Tom's correction that it's their decision, is one of the few things in the whole relationship that rang true to me. She's going to do what makes sense to her, and she's going to expect her friends and allies to do the same - the idea of there being an actual need to stop and solicit someone's opinion in order to get it (especially when people are constantly spilling their guts around her just as a matter of course) is probably alien enough to her that she has to consciously remind herself sometimes, particularly when she's around people who make her comfortable enough to relax. Which we're supposed to believe Tresser is.

[icon_uk]

if he didn't want it, she expected him to say so

Except he had no clue what was going on until she'd finished because she didn't have the courtesy to explain to him in advance what she was doing, an Amazon would have been aware beforehand of the symbolism of the nectarine pit and the bracelet.

I get what you mean, but it just comes across as pushy and presumptive, and those are not traits I admire.

[bluefall]

Eh, it wouldn't have if it'd been her first month off the island, though, because it wouldn't occur to her that he wouldn't know, and when he was all "what's this?" she probably wouldn't have known how to explain or understood the depth of his not getting it. I mean, think about how hard it is for readers with a modern Western perspective to understand Diana's religion - there's this constant focus on whether Diana's gods "deserve" her worship, attempts to make them deserve her or storylines where she rejects them or what-have-you, this profound insistence on that as a focus of the story. Which is basically tantamount to debating why a colorblind dude would buy a car in that particular shade of blue - the very question isn't even on his radar. The cultural divide is that stark. We're freaking out over something that would never even occur to her as relevant.

Same thing for noob!Diana in Man's World; the idea of how courtship works would be so fundamental to her worldview that, essentially, she'd never have even heard of colorblindness, and is therefore just assuming this guy she's after has bad taste in cars and going from there. (Let me torture this metaphor just a little bit more, shall I?) That all this is coming across more seriously to him than she means it can't even occur to her as a possibility, any more than "not everyone can see color" can occur to someone who's never encountered the idea. She doesn't have the tools to figure out the miscommunication is happening, much less correct it.

Obviously if you know about colorblindness she's going to come across like an utter ass, and if she's been in the world long enough to have learned about it, and worked day in and day out with colorblind people, and her sister married a colorblind dude once, well, she's an ass and she's stupid. So, yeah, I don't really disagree with you about how it presents itself as a plot choice or that it doesn't do Diana any favors.

I do think it could have worked if it had been, like, Artemis or Dinah or maybe even... I dunno, Guy; somebody who isn't from her culture, but who reads to her enough as "amazon" and who she's thought of as a sister for long enough and who's understood enough else about her that she'd have reason to subconsciously suspect that they'd get this too.* Or, again, if it were her first six months in Man's World.

* 'Course anyone that close to her, I'd expect to forgive the miscommunication anyway, so it'd still play out differently.

[icon_uk]

Oh, if it had been her first month off the island, no problem, she would have been in the "innocent abroad" phase. But this isn't even her first romance (I understand that Trevor Barnes isn't a popular character, but he's still in her past)

And as an ambassador, Diana has had too much experience with the concept of culture clash to be unaware of the implications here.

[bluefall]

Donna comes off really badly too. Polly I'll make allowances for (I shouldn't, because she may or may not have been a JSA staple for half a decade or more, but I will, since I like to excise that from my fanon anyway), but Donna, of all people, should know both exactly how serious Diana is and exactly how Tresser will take all this. But in the whole "my life for yours" scene between Tresser and Donna in the Casa de Gorilla, she basically does everything in her power to further aggravate his false impression of the situation.

[3goodtimes]

Yeah, Donna was... weird. I really disliked that scene.

[gailsimone]

I can never figure out which comic it is that you actually read.

Weird.

[gailsimone]

That was to Bluefall. It's not mean to be mean, but I
can never understand where she comes up with these things.

Not in the text, certainly.

[gailsimone]

No, she doesn't.

That is just weird. She is trying to make it easier for Tom.
She knows Diana's not good at this. Both Donna AND Polly
try to make Tom feel welcome...the come out and say so. I
honestly don't know how it could be more clear.

I can't see how you even got this interpretation.

[xammax]

You plug your ears and scream into them what you want.

For instance I've been doing it for awhile as my icon shows.

[icon_uk]

"Babies, babies, babies", to the man who has just entered the first stage of the courtship ritual is supposed to make him feel welcome? Guaranteed to stress him out methinks.

[gailsimone]

Oh, sure, but she also makes him an Amazon, a rare honor. She disabuses
him of the notion that he is unworthy immediately, and she makes him a weapon
with her own hands, and gives him a rank and title, and her blessing.

She scares him a little, but as Diana says, Amazon mating play is not
for the weak. ;)

[bluefall]

If she's trying to make it easier for Tom, why is the first thing she throws at Tom more super-significant sounding amazon ritual, instead of, I don't know, a casual "I'm not here to hurt you, I'm cool with you if Diana is" in plain English?

She was raised among us. She knows how we think, how we act, how we mate and the significance we attach to certain promises and behaviors. She knows that Tresser is in love with Diana - she says it right there on the page - and she knows that Diana's not in love with Tom, because she knows Diana and that a peachpit isn't an engagement ring. Even if I could be convinced that Diana doesn't understand how Tom will misread her advances, you will never convince me that Donna, who has dated more men from our culture than Kyle Rayner has fridges, wouldn't get exactly what's going on here or wouldn't know exactly how to talk to Tom to put him at ease.

But she doesn't sit down with Diana and say "hey, you realize he's reading this all wrong, you need to have a talk with him about where you're actually at." She doesn't, when she meets Tom, say "relax - amazons don't actually bite, and as far as Diana's concerned, you guys are still on your second date."

Instead, she makes it significantly worse, by being all "I solemnly swear by all my gods that I will die for you, and my sister has Very Important things to say to you but you have to Give Her Time," and all sorts of other portentious and incredibly intense stuff that can only possibly leave him with the impression that all of this is an even bigger deal and he's even more important to Diana than he thought. The woman's sister just told him she'd die for him, which is a pretty insanely serious statement of devotion in his culture. How is he supposed to read that as anything other than "ohmygod, Diana is over-the-moon Twilight-stalker in love with me"? And how in the multiverse could Donna not know that?

If Donna were really trying to make Tom feel welcome, she'd do it in a way that would actually make him feel welcome, not more confused and behind the curve and, in his own words, like a grade-A chump.

ETA: Holy HTML fail, Batman. Jeez, that's the second time this post I've done that! :facepalm:

[gailsimone]

I think this is a case of selective reading, Bluefall. You're much closer to the facts with this comment you made earlier..."From the Themysciran perspective, as this storyline presents it, the whole ritual is the question; if he didn't want it, she expected him to say so. "

If you read one panel of the Donna/Tom meeting, yes, she goes a bit hard at the ritual. Then she spends the rest of the scene trying to welcome him and let him know that Diana is fond of him.

And I can't see Amazons interfering in the ritual of other Amazons--that seems very much against the idea in the first place. Remember, ALL she knows about Tom is that Diana is fond of him. Not crazy in love, not ready to romance, but fond of him. And she comes into the house while he's in the middle of destroying Diana's place and fighting with her personal guards.

And he says he feels like a chump right after she extends her hand and says he is her new friend and ally.

You can't just pick the first couple panels and ignore the rest.

"You deserve answers, Tom, but they're not mine to give."

I mean, that really is as completely clear as it gets.

I think the obvious fact that both Polly and Donna actually are very impressed by Tom in their first meetings is the key point there. Yes, he doesn't get her culture yet. But that happens all the time in our own country without taking into consideration island nations that have been isolated for 3000 years.

You can be, say, Catholic, and raised here, not in Rome, and still confuse your potential mate with the rituals and culture or your beliefs. Multiply that many, many times, and you get Diana. It doesn't matter even one bit that she's been here ten years...she was trying the Amazon way on purpose.

[3goodtimes]

Mmm... reading this explanation makes that chapter flow better for me.

When you're trying to welcome someone into any sort of family, it makes sense that you'd use your own cultural traditions to do so. And it also makes sense that the Amazons' are a bit... intense with the protection oaths, haha. It just floes a bit better on Themyscira than it does in an apartment full of apes, which I suppose is the point in terms of the comedic side of things.

[icon_uk]

When you're trying to welcome someone into any sort of family, it makes sense that you'd use your own cultural traditions to do so.

Actually no, I don't think you would, you'd find a compromise between yours and theirs, and if you WERE going to do something you knew was a bit outré, you'd let them know in advance what was coming up to avoid offence/shock/horror on both sides.

It might be tradition amongst your people for your parents to spit on your beloved when they first meet him/her, to show they'd gladly offer up their vital fluids for them, but if you haven't explained it to your partner in advance you can hardly blame them if they think your parents hate him/her

[bluefall]

That exact tragic misunderstanding, in fact, is why Guy Gardner will never find true love with Amfela of the Camel-People of Rigel-615.

[3goodtimes]

Well, spitting is a bit extreme. I don't think Donna did anything that would register horror or offense. Only a little bit of shock.

And I also think Donna did try to meet him half way. After she finished the whole spiel she went into a more casual mode.

Still, I think being integrated into cultural traditions is a pretty common thing when people try to connect to one another. I've experienced it personally from various friends and family members, and though it can be awkward, it tends to become enjoyable if you go with it.

[icon_uk]

I haven't seen the Donna scene, I was still talking about Diana and the nectarine pit scene.

[3goodtimes]

Ah, sorry. This thread was about Donna's scene so I didn't realize you were referring to something else.

I think my point still stands though. In either case.

[bluefall]

Remember, ALL she knows about Tom is that Diana is fond of him. Not crazy in love, not ready to romance, but fond of him.

Exactly. She knows that. And she knows Tom is in love with Diana - again, she says it right there on the page. And instead of thinking "hey, uh-oh, this guy is totally misreading stuff, he and Diana are not on the same page at all, better step back a bit," she goes right after him as intense as possible as though Diana were in love - grilling him on whether he's in love, telling him that there's important stuff Diana hasn't told him yet (if those answers weren't a big deal, she could just say it herself), basically every single thing she says to him from start to finish *encourages* him to think that Diana is head-over-heels for him, that he's involved in something Big here. She exacerbates the miscommunication, by acting in a way that she would know would read to him as "you are in a position to emotionally hurt someone I care about" (aka, someone I love loves you), because again, even if you could convince me that Diana wouldn't know how the intensity of amazon ritual would come across to Tom, you can't convince me that Donna, who's been married to a Man's World shmuck, wouldn't.

It's got nothing to do with what Diana or Tom would or wouldn't get about each other, here, or interfering with Diana's ritual - this is about Donna. She's behaving in that scene like she's a pure Themysciran who doesn't realize how Tom would interpret her rituals or her questions, rather than a child of two worlds who would know promising to die for Tom and asking if he's in love will give him a false (and therefore dangerous) impression of Diana's investment. She doesn't have to say "dude, she's not as into you as you think" if she doesn't want to step on Diana's toes; she should, however, be expected not to say "dude, she's even more into you than you think," which is the screamingly loud subtext of her behavior in that scene from an American perspective. Which she would be aware of.

[gailsimone]

I'm sorry, Bluefall, but this is like arguing with someone who's mad because I didn't match their fanfic.

How in god's name is this statement, "I know she's taken a fancy to you," which is absolutely the closest thing to anything even REMOTELY like what you're saying here indicate that Diana is 'head-over-heels' for him? There is nothing like that for one moment in this scene.

And I say again, she makes it very clear that she isn't allowed to say more.

""You deserve answers, Tom, but they're not mine to give.""

"I ask only that you give my sister the chance to tell you in her own time."

This 'head-over-heels' thing is completely invented. It's not in the text, period.

And I defy anyone to read that scene right this moment and come up with anything that even implies anything in the same UNIVERSE as, "dude, she's even MORE into you than you think."

That is pure invention.

I always enjoy your analysis of WW issues, Bf, you know that. But the scene you're talking about does not exist even a little bit. I choose words very carefully. If I'd meant for Donna to imply that, which I did not, I would have had SOME line of dialogue that said something to that effect.

There is NO such line, and I think you must realize that or you would have cited examples.