protogarrett: (Default)
[personal profile] protogarrett posting in [community profile] scans_daily
 The controversial scene.

Tags: Char:Paige Guthrie/Husk, Char: Nurse Annie, Group: X-Men


She says that it's because mutant genetics and the HIV virus aren't compatible.

Now for a long time I had serious issues with this scene. However, now that I mull it over it doesn't bother me. Look at it this way; mutants aren't humans, thus why would a disease that affects humans affect them? Yes, we've seen mutants with cancer and the flu but that doesn't mean every disease would cross species. Yes, there might be other implications here and all kinds of subtext, depending what he author intended and what the reader wants to invest based on his or her experiences.

Plus, the two HIV positive people I know enjoyed it as it brought the topic of HIV/AIDS to the forefront and got a lot of people to talk about it. Furthermore, their response was, "Well, she isn't human. Plus all mutants also look like supermodels, so obviously the genes are a bit different."

So... yeah. My two cents.

Would love to hear other ideas, but if we can keep it from a flame and hate thread and actually discuss the topic at hand, that would be great. Let's avoid Austen hate, Nurse Annie hate, etc. and sticl to the proposed issue. 

Date: 2010-04-13 03:09 am (UTC)
math_camel: the symbol for an angstrom (Default)
From: [personal profile] math_camel
I'm sorry, but I've never been able to buy that mutants and humans are two totally different species. They can breed *and* produce fertile offspring. They're the same species. Someone back in the mists of X-Men past just back in doesn't understand the concept. It's really weird, but even if they're totally different they can be the same species, like chihuahuas and St. bernards, and then there are animals that are so similar you have to look at their DNA to know they're different species (it's called cryptic biodiversity, and it's crazy).

But then again, I'm pretty sure everyone was a moron in the X-books around this time, so why not.

Date: 2010-04-13 03:19 am (UTC)
math_camel: the symbol for an angstrom (Default)
From: [personal profile] math_camel
They can have babies together. That's the very definition of species.

IDK what's been going on with the X-Men lately, but there can be a great deal of genetic variation (again, look at dogs!) and consider how close chimps and humans are, but we're still incompatible. For example, there are some species that are exactly the same except some of they're chromosomes fused differently, so they have all the same genes but are arranged differently making it impossible to combine evenly for progeny.

Date: 2010-04-13 03:33 am (UTC)
math_camel: the symbol for an angstrom (Default)
From: [personal profile] math_camel
I know, I'm just saying it makes no sense. Maybe some day they'll retcon it that all of the human parents of humanxmutant children were actually mutants, or show these children having problems conceiving their own children in a few decades or something.

I know it's a pretty silly point to argue, seeing as how they can just claim a witch did it, but I can accept messing with the fantastic but not the mundane. I can accept that the Wolverine can heal from all damage, but not that a seemingly competent character would preform blood transfusions without checking blood types, for example.

Date: 2010-04-13 04:57 am (UTC)
suzene: (Default)
From: [personal profile] suzene
Until the next event/retcon.

Date: 2010-04-13 03:55 am (UTC)
geoffsebesta: (Default)
From: [personal profile] geoffsebesta
"They can have babies together. That's the very definition of species. "

Er....? So horses and donkeys are the same species? (I just checked, they're not). Not to mention all the other crossbreeds out there.

Date: 2010-04-13 04:37 am (UTC)
ext_397329: (Default)
From: [identity profile] afghanant.wordpress.com
They are not the sames species but they are in the same order and can contract the same diseases, especially if said disease attacks DNA since you know DNA compatibility is what allows horse and donkey to create offspring and all...

Date: 2010-04-13 04:38 am (UTC)
geoffsebesta: (Default)
From: [personal profile] geoffsebesta
Take a deep breath and say exactly what you're trying to say. Are you trying to prove, actually prove, that humans and mutants are the same species? Are you trying to prove that AIDS absolutely can go from one to the other?

How do you plan to do this?

Date: 2010-04-13 04:57 am (UTC)
ext_397329: (Default)
From: [identity profile] afghanant.wordpress.com
I'm saying they are in the same Order which is primates and the retrovirus HIV attacks the immune systems of Primates. Are mutants no longer primates either?

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Date: 2010-04-13 04:49 am (UTC)
math_camel: the symbol for an angstrom (Default)
From: [personal profile] math_camel
In that comment I simplified for effect, but in the first I specify fertile progeny. Horses and donkeys can be mated to create a completely different animal that isn't a horse or a donkey, known as mules (or less commonly, a hinny) but this species is infertile. I think it's the males that are absolutely sterile, but the females can possibly have baby horse/donkey/mule hybrid colt, but very rarely. That's why, even though mules are so awesome being smarter then horses and stronger then donkeys, you don't see wild herds of them roaming the planes.

Most other hybrids are the same, but there are some plants that could possibly breed but have such different pollination schedules and parts that it just doesn't happen in nature. In fact, most "crossbreeds" are just that: a cross between two breeds of the same species. Like a labradoodle.

But seriously, the most common definition of a species is a "taxonomic group whose members can interbreed." It can get screwy, but it's the easiest to go by.

Date: 2010-04-13 04:55 am (UTC)
geoffsebesta: (Default)
From: [personal profile] geoffsebesta
Fair enough, I'm mostly interested now that it seems that no one can name second-generation mutants. The closest we've gotten are Luna and Siryn/Jamie's weird...thing.... Those aren't very close.

Date: 2010-04-13 05:11 am (UTC)
math_camel: the symbol for an angstrom (Default)
From: [personal profile] math_camel
Again, I haven't been up on X-Lore since middle school, I don't even remember who is or isn't a mutant any more.

But I do remember a bunch of human on mutant romances, and they never brought up fertility issues. And you think that would be something you'd need to be up front about. I also remember a town in California where Rogue set up shop with a bunch of humans and mutants living in harmony with several marriages across powered lines, and bunches of children running around. I think it was right before Magneto nuked NYC. And then good old Charles Xavier had a son with a (I think?) human woman, Gabrielle Halle,(wiki is my friend). But I'm not sure if that's still canon or not. Lord knows no one talks about it. And he doesn't end up so well...

So I have some second hand stuff, but none of it's consistent because the writers want to say they're different species, but they don't want the actual implications of that to effect their story.

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Date: 2010-04-13 12:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] daningram.insanejournal.com
Syrin, Quicksilver, Polaris, Shinobi Shaw and Wanda are all second generation mutants with human parents. Nightcrawler and Cable are second generation mutants with both parents being mutants. And virtually every mutant out there comes from two humans.

So yeah, humans and mutants can interbreed. So it makes no sense that AIDS doesn't affect them, unless their mutation damages the virus' ability to replicate itself.

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Date: 2010-04-13 11:30 am (UTC)
halialkers: Raven in Blue hood, glowing white eyes, right hand with palm stretched upward (Default)
From: [personal profile] halialkers
Except lions and tigers can produce young that are actually fertile (well, the females at any rate). I don't presume that you'll tell me Panthera leo and Panthera tigris are the same species.....

Date: 2010-04-13 12:02 pm (UTC)
math_camel: the symbol for an angstrom (Default)
From: [personal profile] math_camel
But that's just it: the females can be but the males *never* are, so the "species" of Tigon/Ligor isn't viable/fertile as a whole, and even then, it's pretty rare to get a fertile female hybrid. See the above discussion on horses/donkeys.
You have to look at these things on a group level, otherwise you could start classifying individuals that have fertility issues as a different group or species then those who don't, and we don NOT want that.

Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but species= animals that can interbreed is the basic definition.

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Date: 2010-04-13 11:28 am (UTC)
halialkers: Raven in Blue hood, glowing white eyes, right hand with palm stretched upward (Default)
From: [personal profile] halialkers
Not necessarily. By that standard brown bears and polar bears are the same species.

As are lions and tigers.

Date: 2010-04-13 12:11 pm (UTC)
math_camel: the symbol for an angstrom (Default)
From: [personal profile] math_camel
Again, it's the definition. The most basic one, but also the simplest. There are exceptions to every rule, especially in biology, but it's how groups are divided. Lord knows there's enough issues to write a library full of books debating the whole idea for the past couple of centuries. But we have to have some kind of system, other wise why even bother looking at stuff if you can't name it and keep track of it?

But that bear thing is ridiculous. Looking at it I think these bears would be better classified like wolves/dogs/dingos where they're technically the same species but different subspecies. I guess it's just that creating subspecies is kind of new, and there's a lot of politics surrounding polar bears at the moment.

Date: 2010-04-13 12:49 pm (UTC)
halialkers: Raven in Blue hood, glowing white eyes, right hand with palm stretched upward (Default)
From: [personal profile] halialkers
Except that dogs are wolves evolved by humans to be friendlier to humans and to work with us on our terms. So they really *are* the same species. Ursus maritimus and Ursus arctos are still wild animals....

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Date: 2010-04-13 03:58 am (UTC)
geoffsebesta: (Default)
From: [personal profile] geoffsebesta
Sorry, responding in reverse order.

First, there's been very little evidence that mutants and humans have consistently fertile offspring. It's tough to name second-gen mutants in the Marvel universe, especially because they tend to be cosmic time-travellers who may-or-may-not exist. Ref. Scarlet Witch.

Second, different species do occasionally, rarely, have fertile offspring. It happens. It's not a make-or-break.

I have no problem buying humans and mutants being different species. It's all taxonomy anyway, it's not written in stone.

Date: 2010-04-13 12:35 pm (UTC)
skalja: Ultimate Spider-Woman posing like a BAMF (Default)
From: [personal profile] skalja
Honestly, quite apart from the whole reproduction issue, the whole idea of mutants being a separate species differentiated by just one gene really, really bothers me. I mean, think of all the real-life humans who have extra/missing genes, even entire chromosomes. If mutants are a different species, then what about people with Downs syndrome or Klinefelter's?

We can't even use the fertile offspring criterion to say that Marvel mutants are a different species but real life "mutants" aren't, because there are genetic mutations that cause sterility.

Date: 2010-04-13 03:28 pm (UTC)
math_camel: the symbol for an angstrom (Default)
From: [personal profile] math_camel
That's true, and it's also why we have to look at larger populations instead of a specific individual. That's even why I say that even though some closely related animals are able to produce a few fertile hybrids (a small number of female mules can produce offspring with horses or donkeys) the fact is that *as a species* they are infertile, and that's the point.

And most real life mutations are considered birth defects or diseases, so it's kind of a touchy subject. We totally don't want to even insinuate that people who are afflicted with these sorts of issues aren't human in anyway. Because that would be awful.

(But there are some cases where animal species separate because one has a tiny difference, like a fused chromosome, that renders them incapable of mating. But again: we're talking about *populations.* Not individuals)

Date: 2010-04-13 07:00 pm (UTC)
skalja: Ultimate Spider-Woman posing like a BAMF (Default)
From: [personal profile] skalja
Yes. Really, this whole discussion is a bit futile because we can't use a sample size of several hundred (the number of named Marvel mutants or offspring with known genetic and reproductive history) and blindly extrapolate that to a population of fifteen million plus (the total number of Marvel mutants before the various genocides, M-Day, etc). Especially since most named Marvel characters are superheroes or friends of superheroes, which has an obvious bearing on reproductive potential, and most unnamed Marvel characters are not.

Date: 2010-04-13 10:59 pm (UTC)
math_camel: the symbol for an angstrom (Default)
From: [personal profile] math_camel
You work with what you've got, but if wild mass guessing is wrong, I don't want to be right!

Date: 2010-04-13 11:15 pm (UTC)
skalja: Ultimate Spider-Woman posing like a BAMF (Default)
From: [personal profile] skalja
True; it's just claiming that wild mass guessing is anything other than wild mass guessing that I object to. :)

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