Jason Todd: instead of being crowbarred, he could have died of AIDS...

[benicio127]

There was apparently an idea that Jason could have died of AIDS, rather than be murdered.

Odd, but true. From this lovely interview with Judd Winick at SequentialTarts.com here:http://www.sequentialtart.com/article.php?id=1711

I'd never heard of this at all, had any of you? Interesting, but obviously Jason dying of AIDS would never have allowed for Bruce to have the intense grief and pain over Jason's death, nor would it have made it the second worst thing to happen to him, after his parents' deaths.

Here's some choice bits:

Deciding to put my disturbingly encyclopedic knowledge of all things Jason Todd to good use, I ask Winick if he's ever heard about a storyline that was planned but never done, wherein Jason's death would have been from AIDS.

"I think it was a stunning, unbelievable thing. In the time of fears and epidemic, to have had a superhero have it, I was stunned and proud to hear about that. But they were not able to do it. I always forget to ask Denny [O'Neil] about that, about what happened.

"Denny's been great about me bringing Jason back. I was really worried about how he'd react, because the back of the Death in the Family trade, where Jason dies, there's a big quote on the back from Denny saying 'to bring him back would be a really sleazy stunt'. I got really nervous talking to him!

"But he said to me 'no, no, it would've been a sleazy stunt for us to do it, that's what I meant. If we'd brought him back six issues later.' It would have ruined their great story. But every generation has to work out their own ways to tell a great story."

"But, getting back to what we were talking about before, I think what they ended up doing with Jason's death was much better, for the story, than the AIDS storyline would have been. Because it wouldn't have been Batman's failure, for Robin to die of a terminal disease. Batman's failure is the Joker killing Robin in a warehouse."




And a page featuring one my favourite ships...




Mia and Jason... now you have one more thing in common...
Also, to me? This scene is so friggin' hot. Erotic asphyxiation...

suggested tags: char: robin/red hood/jason todd, creator: judd winick, char: speedy/mia dearden, title: green arrow

Comments

[halloweenjack]

Frankly, this scene is yet one more instance in which I wish some Superman-level meta would boot Jason's ass straight into orbit.

[benicio127]

Uhhh, OK? Thanks for the input...

[lyraeinne]

Oh, thank god I'm not the only one...

[whitesycamore]

On the subject of Jason "coming back wrong", I'd really like to see some exploration of how sharing a lazarus pit with Ra's has affected him.

I seem to remember Ra's telling him it had cursed his soul forever. That can't be good.

[benicio127]

Ra's, you're so overdramatic sometimes! LOL.

Yeah, it definitely seems like Jason has a self-loathing, of which that could have been a contributing factor. I mean the Lazarus Pit definitely contributed to the insanity. But I recall Jason questioning whether he could have been a better person, if he had friends like Tim did.

There's a Robin back up story in Batman Annual 12, where Jason so wants to have friends that even if those friends are cheaters, he's OK with it. As long as he has friends.<./i> Sad, really.

[sweettart1823]

Hm....

It would have been... I agree with Winick the way he died was much better for the story they did then it would have been. I mean you don't die that suddenly from AIDS. I guess I'm used to what happened to him so it's just weird to me. *shrug*

And you know, random but the art in those issues, and the ones around then, always bothered me. I didn't like it...

[whitesycamore]

I know that Starlin was the one who pushed for Jason to have the AIDS storyline, and he also wrote Captain Marvel's death from cancer. I've never read The Death of Captain Marvel, but I've heard it's good.

[benicio127]

Yeah, some people don't like Scott McDaniel's art. Still... I can't help but find this scene hot on a very kinky level. ;-)

[aubreys_master]

Poor Mia looks like she's having some sort of allergic reaction on the bottom of this page. This is why artists need to be careful with perspective shots. Because they end up giving their characters swollen faces. I seem to recall an issue or so of Robin where they tried to do an unusual perspective and ended up making him look eight with a gigantic head. Sigh.

[icon_uk]

an issue or so of Robin where they tried to do an unusual perspective and ended up making him look eight with a gigantic head.

Or as we came to know him; "Damian"

;-)

[benicio127]

She kind of does, probably moreso than looks like she's being choked. I mean, who puffs out their cheeks when they're being choked?

Besides a good sub trusts their partner during such acts...

[lipsofpoison]

Awful, awful art but I did enjoy the storyline.

[icon_uk]

I think it was a stunning, unbelievable thing. In the time of fears and epidemic, to have had a superhero have it, I was stunned and proud to hear about that. But they were not able to do it.

Ummm, I fail to see anything worthy of pride about NOT telling such a story. DC nearly had their first African American hero in "Jericho" in the 1960's Teen Titans series, but they wussed out and so he was white. That's not a story they can be proud of either, so why should "Character does not die of AIDS" be worthy of note?

[benicio127]

The sense I get of what Judd is saying that he's proud that in 1988/89 -- when there was still such rampant fear/prejudice of people who had HIV or AIDS -- that they were even considering such a thing. Especially given that (superhero) comics seem to be slow to this or anything *taboo* : look at Archie. It's 2010 and that comic strip has finally introduced its first gay character.

[kenn_el]

I'm proud of my almost becoming a heart surgeon. (I even took a couple of Biology classes. )

[jlroberson]

You mean it could have been an even sleazier and cheaper stunt? Good god.

[benicio127]

Yeah, spoken for truth.
The week Under the Red Hood rolls out, I'm gonna try and find all the creator comments on how disliked the Robin death stunt was in the first place. I know both Frank Miller and Fabian Nicieza have spoken out against it. Not exactly sure who else off the top of my head though.

[whitesycamore]

Jason and the AIDS storyline is also mentioned here http://girl-wonder.org/papers/borsellino.html in a really fascinating article by Mary Borsellino. She includes this quote from Jim Starlin:

"At one point DC had this AIDS book they wanted to do. They sent around memos to everybody saying 'What character do you think we should, you know, have him get AIDS and do this dramatic thing' and they never ended up doing this project. I kept sending them things saying 'Oh, do Robin, do Robin!'"

...Yeah. I can't help wondering how they would have handled it though. Would they have written him contracting HIV through a blood transfusion, or do you think they might have gone the Mia route and given him a backstory as a sex worker? This might be a controversial opinion, but I sometimes felt that Starlin was pushing that subtext just a little bit, particularly in the story where he beats up an abusive pimp and Batman's all "WOW JASON WHY THE HELL DID YOU DO THAT I MEAN WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND, HUH?"

[icon_uk]

There is no way in hell that in the late 1980's, DC would have had their mainstream 14 year old Robin be revealed to have picked up HIV from a career as a sex worker. Blood transfusion perhaps, or picking up one of his (variably) junkie mother's needles and accidentally stabbing himself perhaps, but that would be as far as it went and even that would be pushing it.

Though this IS 1980's Jim Starlin, so I suppose anything is possible.

[benicio127]

Also, holy crap is that a good paper. Damn Mary. Dayyyyum. Props to that girl like nobody's business.

As a girl who always wanted to be Robin as a kiddo

[cloud_wolf]

Wow, thank you for linking that, that's a great essay. Seeing all the issues with Robin lined up like that (a) makes me feel quite weird in a way I don't quite understand.

I gotta admit that the things I read and see of Starlin don't make me like him very much.

[freddylloyd]

Here's the full interview with Starlin that Mary Borsellino quoted.

As Starlin presents himself, he wasn't inspired by the wish to tell a story about AIDS, inform readers, or explore Jason Todd's background. He just wanted to get rid of Robin.

Longer quote: "I always thought that the whole idea of a kid side-kick was sheer insanity. So when I started writing Batman, I immediately started lobbying to kill off Robin. At one point DC had this AIDS book they wanted to do. They sent around memos to everybody saying “What character do you think we should, you know, have him get AIDS and do this dramatic thing” and they never ended up doing this project. I kept sending them things saying 'Oh, do Robin! Do Robin!' And Denny O’Neill said 'We can’t kill Robin off'."

[mistersandman]

The possibility that Judd is overlooking is that the Joker could have given Jason HIV. Truly the best of all possible worlds.

[whitesycamore]

...Are you Garth Ennis?

[starwolf_oakley]

This Jason/Mia scene always makes me wonder what Jason's intent was. He's telling Mia "You and I are from the streets, for reals, dawg." But that was about it. What did he want Mia to do? What was part two of this plan. Jason has his issues, but he (usually) doesn't act without a plan.

Maybe they can take this further, especially with Mia's current guilt over Lian's death and *not* killing the Electrocutioner.

There's still some question of Jason being more effective than Batman, as he's not afraid of "getting his hands dirty." Which some assume is why they had Jason go crazy in "Battle for the Cowl." They want to avoid Misaimed Fandom.

I'm probably remembering this wrong, but Black Mask said something to Batman like "The Red Hood did more to hurt me in six weeks than you EVER have." I'm not seeing anything like that in the "Under the Hood" TPBs, but I'm sure he said something like that somewhere.

[benicio127]

This Jason/Mia scene always makes me wonder what Jason's intent was. He's telling Mia "You and I are from the streets, for reals, dawg." But that was about it. What did he want Mia to do? What was part two of this plan. Jason has his issues, but he (usually) doesn't act without a plan.

I always got the impression that he wanted Mia on his side. He saw her as a close comrade in arms potential. I also think that perhaps he was looking for a sidekick even then. But not exactly a Robin kind of sidekick. One who brought something much more lethal to the table.
Jason was already in Star City on other business (he had left an arms dealer "high and dry" on a weapons for drugs exchange and I guess that's because he keeps destroying the shipments) and I guess while he was there he figured he'd kill two birds with one stone. That was the sense that I got, anyways.

There's still some question of Jason being more effective than Batman, as he's not afraid of "getting his hands dirty." Which some assume is why they had Jason go crazy in "Battle for the Cowl." They want to avoid Misaimed Fandom

Hmm, I'm not sure why they went the psychopathic monster route with him in Battle for the Cowl. I know Tony Daniel has said he set out to make Jason have no more "grey" , thinking that this would give him a direction, when anti-hero itself is a direction.

I'm probably remembering this wrong, but Black Mask said something to Batman like "The Red Hood did more to hurt me in six weeks than you EVER have.

Black Mask does say that and I'm pretty sure it's in vol. 1 of Under the Hood. (I think.)