theanswer: (Default)
[personal profile] theanswer posting in [community profile] scans_daily
 With all of the racial insensitivity that seems to be coming from DC during Brightest Day, it's easy to forget they have a new black Azrael.

When I picked up issue #9 I was surprised to see a bit of Captain Marvel lore become a part of Azrael's story arc. Azrael is investigating the Order of Purity suspicious actions when he discovers the Seven Deadly Enemies of Man statues that are usually located at the Rock of Eternity.

Turns out the Enemies have selected human hosts so that they can kill anyone found guilty of committing one of the sins. They're stalking Azrael because they want him to become the host to the Eight Deadly Enemy/Sin that man refuses to acknowledge... Faith.

The Seven Enemies/Sins appear before Michael. He attempts to fight them off as they try to convince him to give into the Enemy/Sin trying to possess him. At the end of the issue he appears to give in...

Suggested Tags: char: azrael/michael washington lane creator: fabian nicieza creator: john stanisci creator: ramon bachs publisher: dc comics

Date: 2010-06-10 12:57 pm (UTC)
zemo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zemo
Crap. This sounds interesting. Don't make me buy it, damn you!

Date: 2010-06-10 03:29 pm (UTC)
comicoz: Really, 99 of them (Default)
From: [personal profile] comicoz
Seconded. The Azrael series completely ignored BN and has a tangental relationship to the main DC universe. I'm happy when I get each one that is remains below the radar of World! Changing! Crossovers!

And really good writing, although sometimes it does appear to be writing for the trade with some of the arcs. This series does a lot of arcs within arcs.

Date: 2010-06-10 01:28 pm (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
Oh well, at least they don't seem to be doing what the Sins normally do when they possess people in the DCU.

Mostly hurtful comments and making people compulsively have sex against their will, according to JLA/JSA and the Outsiders.

Date: 2010-06-10 02:47 pm (UTC)
skjam: Man in blue suit and fedora, wearing an eyeless mask emblazoned with the scales of justice (Default)
From: [personal profile] skjam
I like the version of Lust that showed up fairly recently in the "Soul Eater" manga. It takes an unique approach.

Date: 2010-06-10 04:58 pm (UTC)
darkblade: (Default)
From: [personal profile] darkblade
Care to explain?

Date: 2010-06-10 07:17 pm (UTC)
skjam: Man in blue suit and fedora, wearing an eyeless mask emblazoned with the scales of justice (Default)
From: [personal profile] skjam
Once someone enters Lust's domain/prison, "she" can flip their gender. Suddenly the temptations of the flesh are coming from an entirely new perspective a person hasn't been building defenses/coping mechanisms for all their life. Apparently, it's very distracting in combination with Lust's Heightened Libido effect.

Date: 2010-06-10 07:20 pm (UTC)
darkblade: (Default)
From: [personal profile] darkblade
That is a unique take on the standard succubus/incubus concept.

Date: 2010-06-10 09:34 pm (UTC)
foxhack: (Default)
From: [personal profile] foxhack
Unless of course the person happens to be bisexual.

Date: 2010-06-11 12:59 am (UTC)
skjam: Man in blue suit and fedora, wearing an eyeless mask emblazoned with the scales of justice (Default)
From: [personal profile] skjam
That would cover part of it, but I was really referring to the new and different body parts sending lust signals to the brain in a previously unknown pattern.

Date: 2010-06-11 06:32 am (UTC)
akodo_rokku: (Default)
From: [personal profile] akodo_rokku
The way Blair pwned Lust was also fantastic.

Date: 2010-06-10 10:57 pm (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Default)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
I like the version of Lust in Fullmetal Alchemist. Although my favorites were Wrath and Greed. Fuckin awesome characters.

Date: 2010-06-10 01:45 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
So Faith is a deadly sin? Well, that's not a morally contentious claim to make at all now is it?

Never mind that the approach is that a religions Eighth Deadly Sin is Faith? (I assume the Ninth sin is "Hypocrisy" or possibly "Lack of Irony")

Personally I find it a deeply offensive suggestion, Faith is fine IMHO, it's when it becomes blind zealotry or bigotry that it goes beyond what Faith should be and becomes something ugly and vicious.

And even if you're not into the Judeo-Christian side of things (And the Seven Deadly Sins were set up by our lot) or even religion at all, what about Faith in your fellow man to do the right thing?

I'm not claiming that people haven't used their faiths to justify horrible actions in the past, but to suggest the whole concept is on a par with Wrath or Hate seems off. Those HAVE no positive aspects, Faith does.

Date: 2010-06-10 01:58 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Ah, thanks for that, though I'd rather that they had specified that it is BLIND Faith that is the problem, and not the generic term "Faith". A blindfold might make for an interesting visual hook too.

Date: 2010-06-10 02:07 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Works for me... BTW is there a reason I had three replies to the last comment and two to this one?

Date: 2010-06-10 03:42 pm (UTC)
abbadie: (Default)
From: [personal profile] abbadie
I don't think there is any need to specify what kind of faith is a sin, since, IMHO, most if not all sins are natural impulses taken way beyond a healthy level. I would find it much more offensive that lust, being the basis of human reproduction, is sinful, but there is such a thing as over-the-top sex (not that I like to admit it!) -of course, in the conventional sense, all lust is eeeeevil, yeah right... but i don't believe in the concept of sin for starters, so what the hell.

Date: 2010-06-10 04:04 pm (UTC)
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)
From: [personal profile] nezchan
This reminds me of the discussion about the GL series where Love is represented by the Predator, which is a pretty damn negative version of love. I agree on the whole "lust is evil", since that sentiment has traditionally been used to keep women in line and thus bothers me a lot.

Date: 2010-06-10 04:14 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I'd say that the difference is that Lust is not about Love. Love is fine, great, to be admired, etc. Lust is about simply wanting sex for the gratification it brings, it has no affection or respect for the person being lusted after.

Carnal behaviour from either sex is viewed as bad. I should point out that I'm aware that it's true that the male dominated church hierearchies have been more likely to view it as a means to keeping women in line and I'm not trying to defend that. (Note that the story of Jesus being brought the woman accused of adultery and the famous "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone" concept makes no mention of the MAN in question having to face any punishment despite him being as guilty)

Date: 2010-06-10 06:39 pm (UTC)
nezchan: From Sita Sings the Blues (women's issues)
From: [personal profile] nezchan
I wasn't really trying to conflate Love and Lust, I was saying that the conversation about them was similar in that it was the extremes that we were focusing on. Although I don't necessarily agree that you can't lust after someone without respecting, or indeed loving, them at the same time. It's not like emotions and urges are totally independent of each other.

As to the other, I can't really recall Lust being personified in comics as a male, really. Most, if not all, of the time, Lust is the seductress/temptress/succubus who leads men astray, but I don't see a lot in the other direction. Of course virility in that sense is traditionally seen as positive among males (hell, Hugh Hefner surrounded by girlfriends being a classic example) where it's normally portrayed as shameful among women (skank, ho, etc.). It's not just the church that skews it.
Edited Date: 2010-06-10 06:39 pm (UTC)

Date: 2010-06-10 04:07 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I see where you're coming from, but whilst just about anything taken to excess can be classed as sinful, the "Seven Deadly Sins" sometimes known as "The Seven Capital Vices" of Wrath, Greed, Sloth, Pride, Lust, Envy, and Gluttony are different, since they are all starting from the position of " very bad" as a baseline, they have no redeeming characteristics.

Lust is not Interest, or Attraction, those are fine and dandy. Lust in the context of the Deadly Sin is already an all consuming obsession with the act of having sex for the sake of having sex from the get-go. It's self gratification without thought of others.

Hate is not Dislike, it's hatred, and the loathing that goes with it.

Wrath is not Upset or Miffed, it's all consuming, mindless anger.

There are no "up" sides to these seven, they don't need a modifier because by their nature they are negative in their entirety.

Faith has got an up side to it, it's not automatically bad the way the others are. Blind Faith IS bad so the modifier has value.

IMHO of course.

Date: 2010-06-10 04:34 pm (UTC)
abbadie: (Default)
From: [personal profile] abbadie
Faith has a positive meaning and this refers to its negative use. Yet, while there is no positive use of words like "sloth" or "gluttony", lust is the very word many of us use for healthy and natural impulses just like pride could be argued to be something positive. Organizers of Gay Pride, Pagan Pride and similar events, or even plain proud parents, might justifiably complain that pride is not bad, but self-centered, egotist pride is. Same thing, I believe.

Date: 2010-06-10 04:46 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I think with that we're approaching semantics, rather than theology. :)

Lust and Pride have taken on meanings which are other than their original intent, "diluted" perhaps. The fact that people use the word Lust in a positive fashion (though I confess I'm not familiar with it being used positively, Lust still has a negative connotation to it where I'm from) does not mean that the original meaning is less relevant.

In the case of the latter, is it Pride, or is it "Self confidence" that the marches celebrate, though Egotism might indeed be a better term to use, though again, there are some branches of religion which view any pride as a bad thing. The same sort of difference as there is between pride in ones nation, and jingoism.

Date: 2010-06-10 04:56 pm (UTC)
abbadie: (Default)
From: [personal profile] abbadie
Well, as an ex-Catholic and polytheist, I certainly have a different outlook :-P But yes, I was thinking more of semantics than theology, because I'm thinking of how the story reads for various kinds of readers, including non-Cristians. While I find the use of "sins" bothersome, I do feel some of them are inadequately named; Faith is misnamed, indeed, but I'll admit that it works in the sense of deliberate irony.

The DC Universe is clearly (more or less) monotheistic, having so many pantheons who are more like alien races and a single, omnipotent, "God" but that's precisely why the Sins are workable as concrete entities. And Billy batson's origin story is so wonderfully creepy... So if I were to argue theology, I'd argue against the very existence of Sins, but since they are a given in the DCU, I'm rather pointing out that, just like the use of the word Faith is somewhat inadequate, so are those referring to other Sins.

Date: 2010-06-10 10:58 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
well now, WOnder Woman showed Kane actually creating some stars out of sea which is apparently part of the Hawaiian creation myth.

Date: 2010-06-10 11:32 pm (UTC)
abbadie: (Default)
From: [personal profile] abbadie
Cool! What issue was that? Frankly, having a (Christian?) mass be an important event in Infinite Crisis (or Final? whatever) was quite annoying. We need more of that; I do like the way the Christian pantheon seems to get more-or-less equal treatment at least sometimes at Marvel and elsewhere; way back when, I loved the Thor story where he explained the nature of divinity to a Christian priest. Even though I was a Catholic kid at that point, I was partial toward pagan gods and enjoyed that.

Date: 2010-06-11 12:18 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
I don't recall. It was the issue Zeus killed him to take his heart, so I think it was in the 30's. He said exchanging seas for sky was kind of cheap basically, which is funny since Zeus wasn't a creator god.

Date: 2010-06-11 02:56 am (UTC)
magus_69: (pic#370600)
From: [personal profile] magus_69
Hubris would be a better synonym for Pride, IMO.

Date: 2010-06-10 05:09 pm (UTC)
btravage: (Default)
From: [personal profile] btravage
Pagan Pride? There is such a thing? HAHAHAHAHA

Date: 2010-06-10 05:13 pm (UTC)
abbadie: (Excalibur)
From: [personal profile] abbadie
Every september there is a Pagan Pride Day, with Pagan Pride marches and everything, openly inspired in Gay Pride Day. Frankly, given that most gay people I know hate Gay Pride marches because of the blatant exhibitionism, I find it both appalling and hilarious when I hear of local pagans planning to march in front of the church as a protest for conservatism, and such. Likewise, most serious pagans hate Pagan Pride Day.

Date: 2010-06-10 03:52 pm (UTC)
zemo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zemo
There might be confusion with a blindfolded woman, regarding Justice.

Date: 2010-06-10 05:35 pm (UTC)
crinos: (Default)
From: [personal profile] crinos
Well, I think the idea behind the Deadly Sins is that they are things that, in excess, can lead people into doing bad things.

For instance, its alright to have pride or ambition, but when you have too much of it, it can lead to destructive behavior (like a person having pride in their culture becoming racist, or someone with pride in their work becoming arrogant and closed to new ideas).

So like you say, faith by itself is fine, but Faith taken to stupid extremes is dangerous.

Date: 2010-06-10 01:46 pm (UTC)
thanekos: Yoshikage Kira as Kosaku Kawajiri, after the second arrow. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
still can't figure why Pride's a chimera-thing; he doesn't look he has any obvious lion in him

Date: 2010-06-10 08:00 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
I should note that Faith is traditionally one of the Seven Cardinal Virtues (one of the three Theological Virtues in fact, as opposed to the other four Philosophical Virtues)

The seven Virtues are, IIRC, Faith, Hope, Love (Compassion/Charity), Temperance (Restraint), Prudence, Justice and Courage (Fortitude)

Date: 2010-06-10 10:56 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
The sins don't want to kill people for commiting them, they want more people to do more of them.


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