Bill Willingham and the girls of girl-wonder.org

[benicio127]

Cross-posted to No Scans_Daily.


First of all, apologies to nevermore999 for posting this from her LJ without asking first.

However, I really thought it was important enough to post.


Bill Willingham came in the panel, and ohmygod this really stupid guy bought up Steph, saying her death was poignant and he didn't think they should have bought her back because it was so important Batman kicked her to the curb and Leslie Thompkins (yes, he apparently liked THAT too) and Mom got all uncomfortable next to me...to Willingham's credit, he shut the guy down, saying the death was never his plan and he actually argued for Steph to live. Sattler said he wasn't around for it, and that the fans are really into Steph, and that he thinks it's important they redeemed Leslie Thompkins. Then Willingham had to ruin everything and say, and I swear to God this is a direct quote "I wanted to gun down those girls who kept asking about the (Steph's) memorial case."

My jaw just dropped open. I knew from interviews and shit that Willingham was an asshole- and I'm sorry, he is, for mocking people at panels, and mocking men for daring to cry over a comic book death- but that is just a creepy as fuck thing to say. I raised my hand and I wanted to say "Willingham, you're an asshole" but instead I just told him a) I hated Stephanie's death and b) You shouldn't want to gun people down for being passionate about a character.

Backpedaling time! No, see, those silly girls were just distracting from important issues at panels by asking the same question over and over again, andandand they just don't understanf how the comics industry works and then, I swear to god, he word for word said the "being hated is almost as good" quote. He DID. He and Sattler telled me that when fans hate a story, it's almost as good as if they love it, because at least they care.




So let me just lift the Internet veil for a minute. I am/was a journalist and I used to be a crime/court reporter. In my four years working for three different Canadian newspapers, I reported on a lot of incidents of violence against women. One of those was a four-part series on the high rate of domestic violence in a small community, for which I was nominated for a National Newspaper Award. So trust me when I say I have seen what violence against women does and how important a topic like this is to me.
So yeah, this comment disturbs me on many levels. It is truly an indefensible comment and the fact that it was made in a public venue with little discourse is disturbing. Serious props to nevermore999 for standing up to Willingham and pointing out his incredibly horrific and misogynistic comment. Young impressionable boys buy these comics and that writers who write them actually think these things and then say them outloud in a public venue is shocking to say the very least.





 

Comments

[From: stolisomancer.insanejournal.com]

Bill Willingham saying something deeply stupid in public doesn't exactly make my monocle fly off. He's been writing and drawing some really fucking weird stuff since the mid-eighties (like Ironwood, the fantasy porn comic where all the female characters die in the last issue! How sexy!), and I've been half-expecting him to go into a Dave Sim-style flameout for a while.

[From: darkblade]

I hate to say this but I find it hard to believe he is in any way as bad as Dave Sims got later in his carer.

[From: jaybee3]

Willingham's reaction to this stuff is old hat by now - maybe I'm immune by now. This stuff doesn't stop me from enjoying Fables (who are his own characters after all) but his regular DCU stuff just not do it for me. Kill Steph, make Leslie seemingly commit malpractice/manslaughter to teach "Bruce a lesson" and then when called out on it come up with stuff like this. I mean how hard is it to say the truth - "Yeah, we should have put a memorial up for Steph in the Cave. But nobody in Editorial really took her "Robin" time seriously enough. Our bad.". But no Editorial (whether it be DC or Marvel) really seem to have a tough time admitting any editorial mistakes. The only thing I've heard from Didio that he's done wrong as Editor/now Co-Publisher is he tried to kill Dick Grayson. And the only reason he admits to that is because it never happened. If they had killed off Dick, you can be sure guys like Sattler would be defending it to this day.

The really telling thing is that the "hen fans hate a story, it's almost as good as if they love it, because at least they care." line is now a meme (for everyone at DC now it seems). Sattler used it when people complained about Lian's death in "Cry for Justice" and for Ryan Choi's killing. The Superman team used it for complaints on how the War of the Supermen story ended (with its indiscriminate killing of Kryptonians each and every issue and then hitting the re-set button). Every single time anyone complains now it seems DC is patting itself on the back about how "it must be good if you're angry about it" which if they really believe that line means they don't understand their ever-dwindling readership at all.

[From: aegof]

I don't think they know much about having an audience, never mind keeping it, if they honestly buy that line.

[From: savok]

I am shocked, SHOCKED that a comic book writer took part in hyperbole.

The "being hated it almost as good" line is repeated so often, I expect it's DC's official stance on "this story is horrific and stupid". Expect it peddled out often with Rise of Arsenal.

[From: bradhanon]

[Full disclosure: I used to hang out at girl-wonder.org a great deal, and thus might take this a bit more personally than I otherwise would.]

Okay, to start off with the sympathetic view, I can understand the "being hated is almost as good" thing. Willingham's had a long career, and been involved in a lot of projects that were greeted with resounding indifference. Hearing something, ANYTHING, from the audience is often preferable to the "I know you're out there, I can hear you breathing" scenario.

And yes, we've all said "God, I want to kill that schmuck" or similar stuff when we're annoyed. It's a silly, human reaction, and it's not a big deal.

End of sympathy. Because seriously, when you're on stage, with a microphone, in front of an audience, in a professional context, representing both the company you work for and your own career as an artist? DIFFERENT FUCKING STANDARD. Among the many things you do differently in a professional context, you don't bitch about nobody paying attention to you, you don't insult the fans, and you don't say you want to kill anybody. This is basic, basic professionalism, and Willingham has been around MORE than long enough to have learned it.

Let me give you an example of how to deal with difficult fans as though one were a freakin' pro. John Rogers' Leverage Q&A posts. He gets some really good, incisive questions about his TV show. He also gets a lot of questions that are so boneheaded it causes me pain to read them. He answers all of them with the same courteous mixture of respect and a certain wry sarcasm.

Notably, in this post and the comments section linked to therein, he gets a pretty sharp criticism on feminist grounds from a well-respected internet fangirl some of you may recognize. Rather than dismiss her argument, he engages with it, details where he agrees with her and where he disagrees, explains the creative decision involved, and does his best to put it in context as he sees it. It is a masterpiece of professional interaction with fan criticism, and at no point does he say he'd like to shoot her or anyone else.

[From: whitesycamore]

This really bothers me.

It's not cool to announce publicly that you want to gun anyone down, but really, over the memorial case? All they were asking for was one small token of respect for a beloved character who had been needlessly killed. Such a little thing. And that elicits murder fantasies?

[From: zemo]

As far as I understand it, the problem that they asked for it over and over again. Honestly said, I can understand someone going off and saying something stupid if you're being pestered by people wanting just "such a little thing" for their favourite character all the time. Mind you, he should appologize now that he had time to think about it.

[From: darkblade]

Show of hands how many of us would be killed if he went through with that desire?

[From: icon_uk]

Not me, I'm not a girl!

[From: thanekos]

that's positively john byrnian

[From: punishermax]

~Hulk bursts out of a wall~

"WOW MR WILLINGHAM. HULK APPLAUD YOU. HULK NOT THINK HE EVER HEAR WRITER ACTUALLY EXPRESS WISHES TO MURDER PEOPLE WHO READ COMIC. THAT NEW LEVEL THERE. HULK CAN'T WAIT FOR NEXT CHESTNUT WHERE YOU PULL OUT GUN AND LOVINGLY CLEAN IT WHILE EYEing MEMBERS OF AUDIENCE."

"ALSO, WHY YOU SINGLE OUT GIRLS? WHAT THE FUCK THAT? DID DOG START TALKING TO YOU? THAT HAPPEN TO THIS GUY ONCE. THAT NOT WORK OUT WELL FOR LOT OF PEOPLE INVOLVED."

"HULK KNOW PEOPLE CAN BE ASSHOLES AT COMIC CONVENTIONS. IT GETTING OLD THAT PEOPLE CALL HULK "GREEN" HULK. HA HA HA. THAT FUNNY. OH WAIT, IT NOT. IT NOT FUNNY FIRST 4 TRILLION TIMES, IT NOT MAGICALLY GAIN HUMOR NEXT 4 BILLION TIMES. BUT HULK, YA KNOW, REFRAIN FROM MASTURBATORY FANTASIES OF MURDER. ESPECIALLY WHILE AT PANEL. ESPECIALLY NOT ON MICROPHONE. ESPECIALLY NOT AGAINST SPECIFIC GENDER. HULK NOT THAT ANGRY"

"ALSO, PEOPLE JUST WANT FUCKING MEMORIAL CASE. THEY NOT WANT 700 PAGE EXTRAVAGANZA WHERE GIRL STEPH IS PROCLAIMED BE ULTIMATE SAVIOR OF MULTIVERSE AND THEN GIVEN COLLECTIBLE STAMPS. STILL NOT ENOUGH THERE TO THREATEN SERIAL MURDER."

~Bill simply stares at Hulk. Unblinking~

"......O...K....HULK JUST GONNA....~slowly backs out through wall~ GO NOW~

~Hulk slowly backs out and leaves. Bill still stares unblinking at the wall~

~Punishermax knows how to brighten moods!~

[From: benicio127]

Motherfucking this!!!!

[From: digicom]

"...distracting from important issues at panels."

Important issues?

Like "what overhyped Event we're pushing, and which hot artist will join a title for 1 issue, force delays on two, and be replaced by someone who can actually stick to a schedule before the first arc is over"?

[From: skalja]

SERIOUSLY!

[From: arilou_skiff]

Seriously, isn't this, technically, a death threat?

And thus, you know, pretty illegal?

[From: stolisomancer.insanejournal.com]

No, I'm pretty sure it isn't. Otherwise a whole lot of people would be in jail for making rhetorical or hyperbolic comments.

[From: kijikun]

I'm rather disgusted how many people here are acting like because he's an asshole that's said offensive things in the past we should be upset or offended.

[From: stubbleupdate]

Why is this not offensive, then?

[From: crabby_lioness]

The ultimate (or Ultimate in Marvel's case) problem with the "Making people hate you is as good as making people love you" line is that eventually people tire of hating and just quit you altogether. Note to publisher: this means fewer sales. See Spider-Man post BND.

[From: kingrockwell]

And sometimes "eventually" happens immediately!

[From: kingrockwell]

The only work I own by Willingham are the three issues of Fables that Mike Allred drew. I've never read them, only looked at them. There's a reason for this.

Willingham is not a cool guy, people need to hear about it. Thanks for spreading the word!

[From: nefrekeptah]

Okay, I'm going to be lambasted for this, but I think a lot of people here are overreacting.

Willingham just got done talking about he didn't want Steph to die, and argued against it. He clearly had nothing against her character.

His comment was insensitive, but clearly came from his annoyance of being badgered by fans of Seph over something he probably didn't even have any control over - he was writing Robin at the time, right? Not Batman.

And honestly, I sympathize - someone asks you a question often enough, even if it's a good question, and sooner or later you're going to wish you could take a power drill to your head just to stop the asking.

I've had plenty of experiences where I just wanted to strangle someone - not because I had anything against them, but because I had a long day and they had more work for me, or asked me something that I had already finished explaining.

[From: divi_d]

Well, for one thing, no matter how pissed off you are, any professional worthy of speaking in a public situation like that should know how to control how they EXPRESS said frustration in said public situation.

"It's kind of annoying how people keep asking X..." might qualify as acceptable (although I'd argue still a tad tactless), "I'm want to gun women down for asking X," is NEVER ok. At all. EVER!

[From: bj_l]

So the guy in the audience is stupid for liking Stephs death?

Well, I guess I'm stupid too. And I don't think she really needed to come back (see, death should only equal death when it't not your favourite character apparently). They went the wrong way about it with Leslie letting her die, but oh well.

Something stupid said in the heat of the moment? Oh noes, I think it was getting to a point where he couldn't go to cons or have interviews or post on messageboards or anything without people harping on and on and on about Steph and the case. Sure he shouldn't have said that, but I can understand the frustration that led to the comment.

[From: thebigapricot]

Yeah, no. Sure it could have been annoying but he could have said he wanted to:

Change his phone number
Lock himself in a room
Put his fingers in ears
stop doing interviews
stop visiting message boards
or any number of things to not have to listen to the requests.

But he chose to say he wanted to "gun down" GIRLS.

He doesn't get a pass.

[From: gamerguy]

Eh, I'm pretty sure every creator has wanted to pop an annoying fan in the mouth, or just put 'em in a shallow ditch in a rural area. I'm pretty sure getting asked the same thing over and over grinds down what patience you have.

[From: batman]

Normally, though, you don't voice those momentary urges. There's a difference between having a fleeting urge to punch someone and announcing, as a representative of a company to a wide audience, that you wanted to gun them down.

That's not even taking the horrible gendered comment that it was only girls who would be interested in what happens to female superheroines and that their interest is unusual and beyond the pale.

[From: cmdr_zoom]

ohhhhhhh fucking Christ.

[From: nevermore999]

I would have appreciated if you had asked before posting this- I would have said yes. But no harm done that you didn't, it's not like there is a strict internet rule against such a thing and I've probably done something similar in the past.

But um, to clarify to everyone, yes, I know it's common for people to engage in hyperbole. That doesn't mean it still wasn't a shock to me that he said it and I felt it worthy of comment. It just seems like a shockingly unprofessional thing to say, and honestly, symbolic of comic pros being super disrespectful of their fans- I don't care how annoyed Willingham was. This is shit that happened two years ago, so he should have had plenty of time to get over it. He lumped a bunch of different people together and insulted them for no reason other than they were asking a question.

Yes, the Girl Wonderers asked this question a lot. You know why? Because DC kept dismissing them on it. This was the only way the voice could get heard. That was the whole point of the campaign, to get a straight, non dismissive answer. And it eventually worked, as the industry noticed eventually. I think it says a lot more about the industry than the fans that they had to be so tenacious just to get their concerns addressed. And I don't care if it took up the two minutes that might have been taken up on some fanboy's question about how the latest megasuperevent will end even though there's no way in hell the editor will tell them (seriosuly, there are so many stupid questions like that on panels, it's amazing)

Willingham has a history of being an ass to GWers. He was so rude to Mary Borsellino that Dan Didio felt bad for her. He's said several rude things to people who did nothing to deserve it, and thus has lost my respect. Which is why I don't feel bad for calling him on a really stupid comment.

[From: nevermore999]

Also, I think it's reaaaallly worthy of comment that he called the women who asked this question "girls" and in fact felt the specific NEED to point out they were girls. If he'd said "fans" or "people", the comment is read slightly differently.

[From: suzene]

Getting asked the same question over and over again can certainly wear on someone's patience. Ask anyone whose job requires them to deal with the public. And guess what? It's still not an excuse for telling your customers that you've fantasized about shooting them, hitting them, or even just telling them to STFU. If people who deal with much more abrasive situations face to face for hours every day still somehow manage to grit their teeth and accord themselves professionally so can this guy. Sorry, no excuse.

[From: mechanicaljewel]

I'm just going to summarize the basis of my (and I'm fairly sure most everyone else's) objection to Willingham's statement:

Willingham essentially said "I wanted to shoot every woman who objected to violence against women."

[From: kingrockwell]

Thank you!

[From: darkknightjrk]

One thing I'm surprised about is that in all the articles I see about these panels, none of them ever even mentioned this? I'd think at least one would, if not just to get some controversy hits.

[From: skalja]

One thing I've noticed about reporting on the big comics websites is that they tend to gloss over or ignore controversies that might show companies or creators in a negative light.

[From: neo_prodigy]

I won't lie.

I think a lot of folks know that by no means am I Stephanie's biggest fan. But I had absolutely no idea about the Project Girl Wonder, the memorial case or the issues that had been going on.

Now I'm starting to understand why Stephanie Brown fans are so passionate about her.


I had no idea about Willingham and just......smh.

Hat tip to Nevermore for standing tall on this.

[From: mechanicaljewel]

TBH, while I like Steph as a character, GW was never really about her. Asking about Steph's memorial was more symbolic of objecting to the dichotomy of glorified violence against women and the absence of glory after they died-- men in comics die as heroes, women, even the heroes, die as victims. Steph just proved the double-standard because her death was not honored the way that someone else's --a man--was, even though they had held the exact same role, and she made it clear on her "deathbed" that holding that role was one of the most important thing in her life.

[From: crooked_arrow]

(It's like drama from other places is following me! I just massively flipped out on a violence against women apologist on another forum. Then I was still upset and angry, so I came here to S_D so I could see some happy things to feel better, and there's this. Wtf, internet! Why are you intent on making me ragey?)

Ugh! Who says that? Who thinks that's okay? Especially given the context. At least tell me he didn't get any laughs or applause, and people in the audience other than nevermore999 were disgusted? Because while she was awesome for calling him out on that (seriously, really awesome. I probably would have just sat there stunned for a few minutes), only one person in the room taking issue isn't exactly inspiring. =(

Also, why does anyone working in an industry where your sales depend on people wanting to buy your product think "all publicity is good publicity" applies to them? They aren't celebrities. The worth of their product does not depend on people caring. It depends on people wanting to spend money.

[From: nevermore999]

A couple people nodded, but no applause or laughs. And don't think I'm too awesome for calling him out, I sort of stammered and didn't really get my message across clearly. But thanks. :)

[From: pepperspray101]

unfuckingbelievable!!! Like what he said isn't fucking creepy as hell...it's insanely unprofessional! DC!! WHAT THE FUCK!?! Do they not have a clue how to act professionally in public???

I've gotten shitty customers in the past...guess what? I still treat them with respect. Why? Not only cuz I'm not going to lower myself to their level and not let them get to me...but also because I'd GET FIRED.

For this guy to express himself like that in public is disgusting, and now more disturbing considering WHO HE WAS ANSWERING THE QUESTION TO! A young lady!! Does this guy have no tact or sense?

WHAT A FUCKING CREEP.

[From: chipsnopotatoes]

It really amazes me how this kind of attitude towards women is par for the course in this inbred little world called the comics industry. And these people get away with it too because, at the end of the day, tales like these go no further than the walls of a comic con where it's deemed "acceptable".

Since ms. nevermore999 is a journalist, rather than leaving this anecdote as a livejournal entry, why not compile these incidents into an article or an expose. Pitch it to newspapers or perhaps women's magazines with national circulation.

Let's see how these people explain their behavior to a much larger mainstream audience.

[From: benicio127]

Oh no, I don't think nevermore999 is a journalist. I am. I actually think she's a bit younger. I'm the one who added the bit at the bottom about being a journalist.

[From: cleome45]

Ah, yes. From the people who brought us the never-to-be-forgotten:

"The rape pages are in!"

>:

Remind me again, Somebody, why I ever thought coming back to fandom was a good idea.

Gah.

[From: alienist]

It's a great cure for low blood pressure?