benicio127: (Lois love)benicio127 ([personal profile] benicio127) wrote in [community profile] scans_daily,
@ 2010-06-10 02:20 pm UTC
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Cross-posted to No Scans_Daily.


First of all, apologies to [personal profile] nevermore999 for posting this from her LJ without asking first.

However, I really thought it was important enough to post.


Bill Willingham came in the panel, and ohmygod this really stupid guy bought up Steph, saying her death was poignant and he didn't think they should have bought her back because it was so important Batman kicked her to the curb and Leslie Thompkins (yes, he apparently liked THAT too) and Mom got all uncomfortable next to me...to Willingham's credit, he shut the guy down, saying the death was never his plan and he actually argued for Steph to live. Sattler said he wasn't around for it, and that the fans are really into Steph, and that he thinks it's important they redeemed Leslie Thompkins. Then Willingham had to ruin everything and say, and I swear to God this is a direct quote "I wanted to gun down those girls who kept asking about the (Steph's) memorial case."

My jaw just dropped open. I knew from interviews and shit that Willingham was an asshole- and I'm sorry, he is, for mocking people at panels, and mocking men for daring to cry over a comic book death- but that is just a creepy as fuck thing to say. I raised my hand and I wanted to say "Willingham, you're an asshole" but instead I just told him a) I hated Stephanie's death and b) You shouldn't want to gun people down for being passionate about a character.

Backpedaling time! No, see, those silly girls were just distracting from important issues at panels by asking the same question over and over again, andandand they just don't understanf how the comics industry works and then, I swear to god, he word for word said the "being hated is almost as good" quote. He DID. He and Sattler telled me that when fans hate a story, it's almost as good as if they love it, because at least they care.




So let me just lift the Internet veil for a minute. I am/was a journalist and I used to be a crime/court reporter. In my four years working for three different Canadian newspapers, I reported on a lot of incidents of violence against women. One of those was a four-part series on the high rate of domestic violence in a small community, for which I was nominated for a National Newspaper Award. So trust me when I say I have seen what violence against women does and how important a topic like this is to me.
So yeah, this comment disturbs me on many levels. It is truly an indefensible comment and the fact that it was made in a public venue with little discourse is disturbing. Serious props to [personal profile] nevermore999 for standing up to Willingham and pointing out his incredibly horrific and misogynistic comment. Young impressionable boys buy these comics and that writers who write them actually think these things and then say them outloud in a public venue is shocking to say the very least.





 


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nefrekeptah: (Plan)


[personal profile] nefrekeptah
2010-06-10 09:47 pm UTC (link)
"ALSO, WHY YOU SINGLE OUT GIRLS?

Because the people asking the question were mostly female?

Seems pretty no-brainier to me.

And "masturbatory fantasies of murder" seems a little extreme; his words were insensitive, but I seriously doubt he meant anything more than trying to illustrate how sick he was of being asked that question.

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skalja: Ultimate Spider-Woman posing like a BAMF (spider-man: jessica badass drew)


[personal profile] skalja
2010-06-10 11:02 pm UTC (link)
Intent is pretty much irrelevant here.

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nefrekeptah: (awesome)

Intent


[personal profile] nefrekeptah
2010-06-10 11:13 pm UTC (link)
Intent is never irrelevant anywhere.

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nefrekeptah: (awesome)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] nefrekeptah
2010-06-10 11:30 pm UTC (link)
As a matter of fact, there are no instances when it isn't true.

Intent is not an excuse, that's true, but that does not mean it's irrelevant.

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kingrockwell: cool times; a man in a black shirt places a blue fedora on his head while throwing a jacket over his shoulder. (Ferdinand)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] kingrockwell
2010-06-10 11:42 pm UTC (link)
No, no, when you think someone's bad reaction to being told they should be shot is extreme because that's not what speaker meant, intent is definitely irrelevant. That comment not only was addressed to a lot of people right here in this thread, but glorifies violence against women.

The reactions here are valid. The intent is not.

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nefrekeptah: (awesome)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] nefrekeptah
2010-06-11 12:26 am UTC (link)
All right, fair enough, you're right.

...except for the "glorify violence against woman" part, I don't know where your getting that.

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benicio127: (Lois love)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] benicio127
2010-06-11 12:56 am UTC (link)
"Gun down those girls" -- actually signalling out a specific group of girls who sent him/DC postcards asking for a very small thing for their favourite character -- doesn't glorify it enough for you?

How about this: In 1989, Marc Lepine walked into a classroom in Montreal's Ecole Polytechnique and gunned down 14 women simply because they were women. To this day, in this country, every year on Dec. 6, members of government, women and feminist organizations and all kinds of other people commemorate this day all across the country.

Or the fact that on a daily basis women are assaulted in some way (physically or sexually) by men. Like I said, I used to be a crime/court reporter and this was a regular occurrence of something I reported on.

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nefrekeptah: (awesome)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] nefrekeptah
2010-06-11 01:27 am UTC (link)
No, it doesn't. He's referring to a large group of people who were constantly demanding (demanding, not asking) that Steph get a memorial, something he didn't have control over.

Both your examples are very tragic instances of battering woman, but I'm not sure why you brought them up. How do either of those examples "glorify" assaulting women, and what do they have to do with Willingham's thoughtless words?

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kingrockwell: cool times; a man in a black shirt places a blue fedora on his head while throwing a jacket over his shoulder. (Ferdinand)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] kingrockwell
2010-06-11 01:34 am UTC (link)
Because nothing happens in a vacuum and putting the comments in the context of a society that allows them and makes excuses for them is important when discussing systematic oppression. His comments are contributing to this culture, they are a part of this culture. They glorify and enable this culture.

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nefrekeptah: (awesome)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] nefrekeptah
2010-06-11 02:28 am UTC (link)
... but they're not examples of how our society allows and makes excuses for them. They're examples of how pervasive and how horrible it is, yes, but not about how our society can be permissive of it. A better example would be how men often get off light, or are found innocent when tried for battering their girlfriends, or the idea in our society that a woman is somehow at fault for getting raped.

And I still don't agree with "glorify and enable" - that would imply that he's saying that beating up on woman is not only permissible, but a great thing to do and that everyone should do it, and I don't see that here.

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kingrockwell: cool times; a man in a black shirt places a blue fedora on his head while throwing a jacket over his shoulder. (Ferdinand)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] kingrockwell
2010-06-11 02:42 am UTC (link)
Your also forgetting that he's directing violent language toward women who are voicing their dissent toward violence against women. That's what this whole thing was about, demanding the case, demanding acknowledgement, demanding that someone sat up and took notice that something is wrong here.

Shutting down cries against violence toward women glorifies and enables violence toward women.

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fifthie: tastes the best (terezi loves red)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] fifthie
2010-06-11 07:39 pm UTC (link)
Your also forgetting that he's directing violent language toward women who are voicing their dissent toward violence against women.

Okay yes, here it is, thank you, this, cut it, print it, post it at the top of the page in 48pt boldface underlined italicized glittertext, this is exactly what I've been trying to figure out about what exactly it is that is so fucked up here.

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punishermax: (pic#748010)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] punishermax
2010-06-11 01:41 am UTC (link)
The problem though bro, is that shit sounds bad cause of real events. See, he may not have been thinking of how much lhe likes the idea of women dying, but problem is he still said something that can be rightfully construed as being sexist as hell.

See saying "Yo I wanna gun down these girls" is dumb as shit cause he's bringing gender into it. Now you can say, "But max it WAS group of girls" but come on, you don't think a single male made the same announcement to him? Why'd he have to specify girls in his gunning down thing?

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benicio127: (Lois love)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] benicio127
2010-06-11 01:57 am UTC (link)
First of all, the group probably wasn't all that large in the grand scheme of things. I would be surprised if it reached over 100.

Second, who cares if they were demanding? They were asking for a memorial for their favourite character. How is his response even justifiable, I think is the better question here.

No, one example is of battering women, the other is an instance in which women were murdered. Fact is that women have actually been gunned down and face systemic violence daily therefore him signalling out a bunch of women and saying he would gun them down DOES glorify violence in women or suggest that such violence; or even thinking of doing that kind of violence by saying it in such a cavalier way is acceptable.

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skalja: Ultimate Spider-Woman posing like a BAMF (dc: superdictionary ducks)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] skalja
2010-06-11 02:02 am UTC (link)
Having been a girl-wonder.org regular at the time, I can't recall more than a handful of people saying they'd spoken up at a con -- the vast majority of us wrote letters or postcards.

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benicio127: (Lois love)

I'm just gonna re-word this coz what? Bad punctuation


[personal profile] benicio127
2010-06-11 02:07 am UTC (link)
The fact is that women have actually been gunned down and face systemic violence daily, therefore him signalling out a bunch of women and saying he would gun them down DOES glorify violence towards women or suggest that such violence, or even thinking of doing that kind of violence by saying it in such a cavalier way, is acceptable

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sandoz_iscariot: A young man looks thoughtful, his chin resting on his hand. (X-Men: Inferno)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] sandoz_iscariot
2010-06-11 02:19 am UTC (link)
constantly demanding (demanding, not asking) that Steph get a memorial

So what if they were demanding a memorial? Keep in mind that for a lot of of those fans it was more than getting something for a favorite character--getting Steph a memorial case was also a call for DC to acknowledge the systemic sexism in the comics industry that fridges female characters and treats them as less significant than their male counterparts, and to do something to change it. People should make demands for equal treatment of female characters, for the status quo to change.

And even if it wasn't something he had control over, there were many avenues he could have taken that don't involve publicly saying he wanted to gun them down.

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punishermax: (pic#748010)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] punishermax
2010-06-10 11:42 pm UTC (link)
Actually legally speaking it's totally irrelevant in cases of drunk driving and statutory rape.

AND NOW YOU KNOW.

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skalja: Ultimate Spider-Woman posing like a BAMF (spider-man: gwen eyebrow)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] skalja
2010-06-10 11:34 pm UTC (link)
It is when what someone intended to say is given more weight than how he actually caused hurt.

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nefrekeptah: (awesome)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] nefrekeptah
2010-06-11 12:20 am UTC (link)
Oh, it shouldn't be given more weight, but it's not completely irrelevant, either.

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skalja: Ultimate Spider-Woman posing like a BAMF (spider-man: jessica badass drew)

Re: Intent


[personal profile] skalja
2010-06-11 12:27 am UTC (link)
I think [personal profile] kingrockwell and [personal profile] punishermax answered this one better than I could.

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