Scans_Daily

I wasn't going to do another post today but I read this and realized it had to be shared.

From:

kamino_neko

So, the chick in the yellow kit...she's evil, right?

From:

bwhahahabeck

Not *really*, she wants to get revenge on Osborn for torturing her.

From:

kamino_neko

Doing a good imitation of it...but I guess being all vengeance-focussed will do that to you.

From:

bwhahahabeck

Yeah, she's got some of her wires crossed, but you gotta remember she's a teenager who almost killed her boyfriend and was then tortured by Osborn and made even worse.

From:

Her origin paints her as a more pissed-off Rogue.

From:

stig

I feel this script could be improved a bit if Tigra was shown up as the comedically ignorant character and Valkyrie was shown to have a point. When women in the Middle East are getting their noses cut off and their clitoris' mutilated, when women in so many areas of the West are the unspoken victims of domestic abuse, when the male-run churches think they can dictate every right a woman has to her body and her independence, when the sexist prejudice if many employers drives women out of work, when prostitution and exploitative porn still run unchecked...it's kind of cretinous for a comic aimed at a young teen audience to be written like this.

I mean, come on - Tigra emphasises 'feminist' as if it's adirty word that she knows less about than Sarah Palin? Tigra, whose most recent forays back into the limelight were 'Got phusically abused by a man in a magic cape' and 'Unknowingly seduced an alien terrorist'? And Valkyrie - a strong-willed female character who actually wears functional armour - is re-branded as the comedy man-hating feminist who 'gotta be a dyke cuz they hate men, AMIRITE FELLAS'. Why didn't they just give her a buzz-cut and have her burn a phallus in effigy, if they wanted to be wilfully ignorant?

From:

gargoylekitty

It actually sounds more like she's about to bring up sex toys than political lesbianism(ew.) and it's kinda sad that her armour passes for being more functional than average, but motto.

From:

stig

Dammit, I misinterpreted. Thank you for pointing that out. I'm still indignant, though.

From:

cmic

This is actually the second "is feminism a dirty word" (no) piece I've read this morning. Weird.

I hadn't seen Valkyrie before. I like her.

From:

You've got a point there. I was actually cringing as I clicked on the cut, because I could already imagine what comics-feminism was going to look like.

And yeah, I think Valkyrie was advocating vibrators not political lesbianism. Her message was still the same though - "sexual desiring men is so silly. Plus, every time you put out for the man-team they score another point!"

The line about mortal craftsmen still made me giggle though. Dumb Tigra, interrupting the mead-fueled vibrator lecture.

From:

valtyr

Her message was still the same though - "sexual desiring men is so silly. Plus, every time you put out for the man-team they score another point!"

I don't really agree; she specifically says sexual desire is normal and healthy (no offence intended to asexuals; female sexuality is often pathologized, so it's nice to hear it stated that female desire is not unhealthy) but that men will disappoint. And I really don't think she implied that sex with men gives them points - she just says that women will inevitably be disappointed by it.

I read it as her not advocating competition with men so much as just disregarding them and going your merry way and focusing on more important things, with the assistance of the tools of mortal craftsmen if necessary.

From:

And I really don't think she implied that sex with men gives them points - she just says that women will inevitably be disappointed by it.

But that flat out isn't true; she's talking about female sexuality as though it were uniform, and every time I've heard these ideas expressed in real life they've been coupled with a sneering implication that women who are very invested in sex with men are weak, spineless and not very bright.

And honestly, her dialogue and posture in that particular panel seem intended to evoke a charicature of the heartless dominatrix laughing at the puny men. That seems anti-feminist to me, seeing as that charicature is itself a parody of a specific type of female sexuality.

From:

valtyr

Well, I must admit, I've never met a woman who's never been disappointed by a man. But I'm not going to say such a woman doesn't exist, I suppose.

I don't think she's talking about female sexuality as though it were uniform; I think she's saying men are still going to disappoint. She's generalizing to everyone about her own experience, but I didn't feel she was sneering at other women - in her own words, not even all her fellow Valkyries take vows of chastity, and given what she's discussing I'm sure she'd mention it if the only ones who didn't only had sex with women. It is possible to say "I think this is right," without saying "Everyone who thinks differently is wrong." She's certainly advocating not having sex with men because they'll disappoint, but I don't see the implication that women who feel differently are weak, spineless and not very bright.

I don't know about the dialogue and pose; can you elaborate? I appreciate the black leather and metal could be reminiscent of fetish gear, but that's always her costume. Her pose, by comics standards, doesn't seem particularly sexualized; she's not twisting or pouting or being coy for the camera.

From:

Well, I must admit, I've never met a woman who's never been disappointed by a man. But I'm not going to say such a woman doesn't exist, I suppose.

It's not true that men will inevitably disappoint. I certainly didn't imply that men can never be disappointing. But more often than not, I find men satisfying. YMMV.

And I'm sure I haven't met a woman who has sex with women and has never been disappointed. In fact I'd go out on a limb and say most women have probably also been disappointed by a vibrator at least once...

From:

valtyr

We're getting down to fine semantics here; I interpreted that as 'sooner or later, men will disappoint you' rather than 'men will always disappoint you in every situation', so that could be why we feel differently about that.

I'd've preferred it if she'd laid stress elsewhere; for a woman who's strongly feminist, men will disappoint intellectually quite a lot of the time, and it would have been nice to place emphasis on that. Then, perhaps she feels that as a heterosexual woman, she can get intellectual conversation from other women, but sex, not so much, so it's important to address that. (I'm not sure if the three students are hetersexual, or if it's been eastablished.) But I wish she hadn't said that 'most of all'.

But at the same time, I like her saying that men aren't necessary to complete a woman, and that she advises skipping them entirely and using toys - again, not that this needs to be the One True Message, but it's a good message to have out there mingling with the others. (It would be lovely to have a diversity of feminist messages out in comics; then the few that are there wouldn't need to please everyone.)

From:

We're getting down to fine semantics here; I interpreted that as 'sooner or later, men will disappoint you' rather than 'men will always disappoint you in every situation', so that could be why we feel differently about that.

Ah, I think you might be right about the root of our disagreement. I definitely interpreted her as saying that all men will inevitably disappoint you. I still think that is probably the intended meaning, but I can see why your interpretation is also valid.

I'd've preferred it if she'd laid stress elsewhere; for a woman who's strongly feminist, men will disappoint intellectually quite a lot of the time, and it would have been nice to place emphasis on that. Then, perhaps she feels that as a heterosexual woman, she can get intellectual conversation from other women, but sex, not so much, so it's important to address that. (I'm not sure if the three students are hetersexual, or if it's been eastablished.) But I wish she hadn't said that 'most of all'.

Word. I think it's the "most of all in the bedroom" bit that also struck me as Cartoon Dominatrix-y - a sort of "you pathetic men could not hope to satisfy us awesome goddesses" spiel, which particularly grates on me because I identify somewhat as a dominant woman, and that is not at all how I experience my sexuality.

From:

"Word. I think it's the "most of all in the bedroom" bit that also struck me as Cartoon Dominatrix-y - a sort of "you pathetic men could not hope to satisfy us awesome goddesses" spiel"

She should ask Kelda about Bill, born of Bills.

From:

shadowpsykie

She should ask Kelda about Bill, born of Bills.

,.... *whimper* oh Bill....

From:

He's chilling in the Hall of Heroes. He'll be back in Kelda's arms one day.

From:

valtyr

On the last bit, one could interpret it as simply Valkyrie's own issues - a mortal man would probably have trouble keeping up with her. ;) I think for this character, what she said is good; but you're right it shouldn't be taken as a completely accurate Here Is How To Do Feminisim or anything. Again, I think it comes back to the lack of diversity in feminist messages - I'm just so glad to see a woman in comics declaring that the patriarchy sucks and the media spoonfeeds damaging messages to girls, and no-one even disputing it. :)

From:

cleome45

I mostly agree with all of this.

Plus, given that usually the only kind of feminism we see in these things is the straw kind, I'll be pretty pleased if somebody could tell me that the storyline didn't end with Tigra having to give some speech about how some women overreact when most men are really groovy people deep down and just need our understanding and guidance and yadda yadda yadda.

Also, the art is nice. There's actually still mainstream cartoonists who can draw more than one or two facial expressions-- correctly?!

[single womanly tear of joy goes here]

From:

valtyr

Well, IDK - I read Tigra's 'Yeah, I know, here goes the feminist again,' as the kind of slightly self-deprecating thing plenty of feminist women say - they don't want to rock the boat too much or invoke stereotypes or piss off the men around them, but they want to do their feminist stuff, so they say something like that. Like, I kinda laughed and sighed, because it seemed very real to me to see a strong, proud woman kind of downplay her feminism.

And I must admit, I saw Valkyrie as pretty much telling it like it us about the patriarchy, and I didn't feel she was mocked - it was presented as funny, sure, but I felt that was more in the mythological-adult-gives-teens-beer-and-inappropriate-talk way, as Hercules and Ultimate Thor have done. Tigra's objections seemed to be more about the sex and booze aspects rather than the fight-the-patriarchy talk. Although of course this is in the realm of interpretation, and I quite see how you might feel differently.

I dunno, I really liked the fact that a woman was mentoring younger women and was actually concerned they had enough suitable female role-models, and specifically invoked feminist theory to justify this. And the genius scientist is all 'oh yes, this is completely valid and correct, I'm just wondering Valkyrie is totally clear on what she's meant to be doing'. Like, everyone in these scans seem to be down with the idea that feminism and working to give young women support and role models is a good idea, and I find this refreshing.

And also a female character is speaking frankly to other female characters about female desire and sexuality, and presenting it in a non-judgmental way - wow. I really like that.

From:

And also a female character is speaking frankly to other female characters about female desire and sexuality, and presenting it in a non-judgmental way - wow. I really like that.

She was being pretty judgmental about women who might actually want to have sex with men. I really don't like her implication that actively desiring men is buying into the idea that you need a man to be happy, or that having sex with men and keeping your mind on what is "truly important" are mutually exclusive.

From:

valtyr

This is interpretation, of course, but I read that as desiring men is natural, but Valkyrie thinks it's best just to take care of said desire oneself, because men will disappoint one way or another. It didn't come across as judgmental to me. (Well, not of women.)

I don't really have a problem with her view that sex and romance are a distraction from what she considers more important things - in this case, cleaving skills. Especially placed in the wider context of comics messages; there are so many messages saying that sex and romance are the important things for girls, I like having this contrary message that not only are they not that important, they can actually distract from the important things. Sure, if all the messages in comics were about how women couldn't have sex with men and do important stuff that would be problematic, but given that they're not, I think this is a good one to have.

From:

terrykun

Yeah, it felt more like (badly done) Thundra than Val. :\

From:

thandrak

The sad thing is, Tigra was introduced as part of Marvel's feminist wave, along with Ms. Marvel and She-Hulk.

From:

I think it's meant more like she's an EXTREMIST feminist - which, to be fair, she is usually more or less portrayed as, to some degree. I mean, her first appearance - as the Enchantress playing a role, admittedly, not HER, but still - was as the head of the 'Lady Liberators', kicking the asses of all the male Avengers. It's inevitable that, in her subsequent career, she should be portrayed as somewhat... abrasive towards males, sometimes verging towards extremes. The whole 'men will inevitably disappoint you' thing sounds a good deal like the tirades that some of the more hardcore lunatic-fringe feminists launch into from time to time - like the whole 'all sex between men and woman is automatically rape because of gender inequality' thing, remember that one? Besides, I would point out that Tigra is calling HERSELF a feminist, not Val, so she - and presumably the writer - clearly doesn't view feminism itself as a bad thing, they're just poking fun at some of the more extreme practitioners of it, who Valkyrie at times seems to embody.

From:

valtyr

Please don't parrot half-remembered feminist theory you don't understand to back up your characterization of extreme feminists as 'lunatic'. It's very offensive, especially in the context of the long history of women's views being dismissed because they're 'hysterical' and 'over-emotional' when they object to oppression.

From:

I'm sorry if I offended you, but that's not at all what I meant. By referring to the 'lunatic fringe', I wasn't saying that extreme feminists were lunatics or 'hysterical or 'over-emotional' - the term, as I understand it, simply means the hard-core extremist elements of any party or group, feminists included. It wasn't meant as an insult to feminism, it's just a turn of phrase.
And I wasn't 'parroting half-remembered feminist theory that I don't understand' - first off, it wasn't a theory, it was a statement, and I remember it quite clearly. I will admit that I don't remember where I first encountered it, but I'm sure with a little research I could turn it up. If you wish, I can do so.

From:

valtyr

And I wasn't 'parroting half-remembered feminist theory that I don't understand' - first off, it wasn't a theory, it was a statement, and I remember it quite clearly. I will admit that I don't remember where I first encountered it, but I'm sure with a little research I could turn it up. If you wish, I can do so.

Yes, you were. You see, I already know who 'said' it, when they 'said' it, and the social and legal context they 'said' it in, and I understand the point they were making. I also know what they actually said. You obviously don't 'remember it clearly', because you've mangled the quote abominably as well as taking it out of context.

The "all sex is rape" quote is actually debunked on Snopes, that's how often people going 'lol extreme feminists' repeat this nonsense. Please stop perpetuating this in your attempts to dismiss what you describe as 'extreme' feminists. In fact, you could just stop trying to dismiss feminists, that would be awesome.

Also, your saying that it can't be feminist theory because it's a statement is just nonsense. Theorizing, you don't know how it works.

From:

Look, if I was wrong about the quote, then fine - you evidently know more about it than I do - but I was not trying to 'dismiss' feminists. I was simply saying that there ARE extremist feminists, just like there are extremist everything elses, and Valkyrie's portrayal here would seem to be a commentary played for humor on the sorts of things they say. That's all I was saying - that, and that the comic itself didn't seem to be anti-feminist, as Tigra was calling herself a feminist.

From:

valtyr

And speaking as someone who has already commented in this post on how I largely agree with Valkyrie's points, I find it irritating to have these views described as 'the lunatic fringe', all right?

You don't know anything about what you call 'extreme' feminism, as shown by your misquote; you're writing off something you don't know anything about. You don't have to agree with the more radical areas of feminism (I don't agree with some of them) but talking about them when you don't know anything about them just displays your ignorance and perpetuates bad information.

From:

I would venture to correct you that I know a LITTLE bit about extreme feminism - I used to be close friends with someone who self-identified as a radical feminist back in college, and we had a number of long and interesting conversations on the subject, so I at least know THAT much. The issue is more that I didn't know as much as I thought I did. I thought I was referring to a valid quote, all right? I remember reading it in the 'New Yorker', or some similar magazine. If said quote has been debunked and is no longer - or was never - valid, then fine, you evidently know more about the subject than I do, but I wasn't just randomly throwing out something - people have chided me in the past for unsubstantiated research in my arguments, so I thought it best to give an example that I knew HAD been published at some point, and that I could look up and quote if need be. If I picked the wrong one, I'm sorry - that was the one that came to mind.
And I wasn't necessarily describing Valkyrie's views as 'the lunatic fringe' - although they seem a tad on the extreme side to me, but that's just me - I was saying that they seemed to be a REFERENCE to the lunatic fringe, by which I simply meant the more radical areas of feminism. You evidently object to the term, and I'm sorry if it offended you, but as I explained earlier, I wasn't saying that extreme feminists are crazy or anything - it's just a term. If I can use it to describe extremist conservatives or extremist liberals or extremist environmentalists or any of many other political and or/social groups or movements, many of which, I should add, I AGREE with, then I fail to see why I can't also apply it to extremist feminists.

From:

karthzon

Er... was I the only one who read Tigra's emphasis as "yeah, I know, here you go on an anti-feminist tirade again, but guess what, you're WRONG"? I'm not aware of the larger context accompanying these scans, of course, but from what I can see, she's expecting Pym to be a sexist jerk about it and to be honest, she's got reason to.

From:

lieut_kettch

Val: BEHOLD! THE STARKTECH VIBROMATIC 3000! WITH RABBIT-EAR ATTACHMENT AND VARIABLE SPEED SETTINGS!

Also, who's the girl with the fishbowl on her head, and how does Val expect her to partake of her frothy mug of mead?

From:

icon_uk

She's Hazmat, sort of like a cross between Rogue, the Radioactive Man and Posion Ivy. Her body produces lethal/debilitating toxins all the time, and she needs to wear the suit to protect everyone around her from her... output as it were, it also allows her to direct her toxins as the situation requires.

From:

jeyl

"Sleeping Beauty, Bridal Magazines, The Bachelor. All oppressive tools of the patriarchy indoctrinating us to believe we need men to complete our lives."

Don't forget Star Wars: Episode III. If a woman can't have her man, she will die of a broken heart.

From:

suzene

But not until she's fulfilled her purpose by birthin' some babies!

From:

requiem2adream

... Oh. Oh my. Oh Valkyrie! ♥ I don't know anything about her but all of a sudden I want to!

Also, love the way Veil is looking up at Valkyrie like she's the font of all knowledge.

From:

shadowpsykie

heehee, loved that too

also sooo did not notice the OTHER mead there... :)

also LOVE your icon! Yay for Britanna

From:

darklorelei

Ahahaha, I was cringing as I clicked the link, but that was actually funny.

From:

valtyr

I really liked this; if this series is in part about female superheroes mentoring young women, I'll buy the hell out of it.

I quite enjoyed the contrast between Tigra's slightly self-conscious 'oh yeah, feminist stuff' and Valkyrie's 'Sisters, ignore the patriarchy!' I mean, it felt real to me, to have a woman feel kind of awkward about it, because a hell of a lot of women do. I remember once saying that I wished a film had more women in it, and a guy said "You're not a feminist are you?" in tones of withering disdain. A lot of women know that declaring outright you're a feminist, damn it, is a good way to get pigeonholed and dismissed, so they kind of downplay it when they talk about it. So yeah, I liked Tigra's line because it felt real, but I also liked Valkyrie's lines because I love a powerful woman declaring that women don't need men to complete them whatever bull the patriarchy tries to push.

ALTHOUGH: Mead doesn't really foam. And where is Tigra's tail rooted in that shot of her bending over? And the confrontation between Val and Tigra is kind of BOOBFIGHT, which slightly undermines the message here.

From:

valtyr

Oh, and putting on pajamas and pretending to be Iron Fist: win.

From:

Ah, but this is ASGARDIAN mead. It knows what's expected of it.

From:

nezchan

If nothing else, Veil seems very interested in the things mortal craftsmen have devised.

From:

shadowpsykie

i don;t get why Cage is telling Marko not to move... (cain's always been good with kids)

also why is glowy girl's hand glowing, then not glowing?

From:

She did an EMP to shut down the prison. So she could get to Osborn.

Luke might not know that, his experience with Cain is limited to fisticuffs.

From:

bjornwilde

Minor correction in the face of all the great feminist talk but mead doesn't have a head like beer or ale. It's wine made from honey.

From:

falseaesop

Then I supose it is not mead. Tigra is just enforcing a negative Asgaurdian stereotype. Valkyrie brought beer.

From:

terrykun

*fist-bump* Yes, another appreciator. :D

Milling it with spices and butter can put some foam on it, but Val seems like she'd prefer hers straight. :D

...

If you'll excuse me, I have business with some spice packets in the kitchen.

From:

janegray

I thought studies prove that boys thrive in single-sex classrooms, because (apparently) they tend to lean on their female classmates, so keeping them in single-sex classrooms (supposedly) forces them to make it on their own and work harder.

From:

gargoylekitty

I'm sure studies conflict, but I'd heard that females thrive in single-sex classrooms while males sometimes improve though not by as much and at times even end up doing worse.

From:

kenn_el

There are studies that prove that both genders fare better when segregated. Seemingly, the researchers had never before heard of hormones.

From:

halloweenjack

Val's speech is sort of undercut a little by the angle that shows us just how tidy her bikini line is, dontcha think?

From:

shadeedge

Yeah, even when reasonable, accurate points are being made by female characters regarding feminism or women-men interactions in general, it's often pretty ruined by the reminder that such characters are often designed to fulfil all those general stereotypical roles.

From:

gargoylekitty

Not particularly.

From:

crabby_lioness

I was dubious about bringing Val back, but she's rocking more now than she even did in the early Defenders. You go, sister!

As a happily married woman of (come tomorrow) 22 years Val's right on the money.

From:

cleome45

Hope it's fun for ya'!

Would you believe that it's an anniversary here, too...? (Only five years, though.)

From:

crabby_lioness

Congratulations!

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