Valkyrie on Feminism and "natural appetites"

[proteus_lives]

Greetings True Believers!

Here 3 funny scans from Avengers Academy #3. Various superheroes are visiting the kiddies to teach them various stuff. One class has the female cadets learning from the mighty Shield-Maiden herself!

Her advice is...to the point.

Plus, a Juggernaut funny!



Class is in session.





I want a Hercules and Valkyrie mini now.

The kiddies are also in a "super-scared straight" program where they visit The Raft and talk to the Thunderbolts.

Reptil has a question for Cain.



Hehe, is Reptil to polite to ask him to say, "I'm the Juggernaut bitch!"

Comments

[whitesycamore]

And I really don't think she implied that sex with men gives them points - she just says that women will inevitably be disappointed by it.

But that flat out isn't true; she's talking about female sexuality as though it were uniform, and every time I've heard these ideas expressed in real life they've been coupled with a sneering implication that women who are very invested in sex with men are weak, spineless and not very bright.

And honestly, her dialogue and posture in that particular panel seem intended to evoke a charicature of the heartless dominatrix laughing at the puny men. That seems anti-feminist to me, seeing as that charicature is itself a parody of a specific type of female sexuality.

[valtyr]

Well, I must admit, I've never met a woman who's never been disappointed by a man. But I'm not going to say such a woman doesn't exist, I suppose.

I don't think she's talking about female sexuality as though it were uniform; I think she's saying men are still going to disappoint. She's generalizing to everyone about her own experience, but I didn't feel she was sneering at other women - in her own words, not even all her fellow Valkyries take vows of chastity, and given what she's discussing I'm sure she'd mention it if the only ones who didn't only had sex with women. It is possible to say "I think this is right," without saying "Everyone who thinks differently is wrong." She's certainly advocating not having sex with men because they'll disappoint, but I don't see the implication that women who feel differently are weak, spineless and not very bright.

I don't know about the dialogue and pose; can you elaborate? I appreciate the black leather and metal could be reminiscent of fetish gear, but that's always her costume. Her pose, by comics standards, doesn't seem particularly sexualized; she's not twisting or pouting or being coy for the camera.

[whitesycamore]

Well, I must admit, I've never met a woman who's never been disappointed by a man. But I'm not going to say such a woman doesn't exist, I suppose.

It's not true that men will inevitably disappoint. I certainly didn't imply that men can never be disappointing. But more often than not, I find men satisfying. YMMV.

And I'm sure I haven't met a woman who has sex with women and has never been disappointed. In fact I'd go out on a limb and say most women have probably also been disappointed by a vibrator at least once...

[valtyr]

We're getting down to fine semantics here; I interpreted that as 'sooner or later, men will disappoint you' rather than 'men will always disappoint you in every situation', so that could be why we feel differently about that.

I'd've preferred it if she'd laid stress elsewhere; for a woman who's strongly feminist, men will disappoint intellectually quite a lot of the time, and it would have been nice to place emphasis on that. Then, perhaps she feels that as a heterosexual woman, she can get intellectual conversation from other women, but sex, not so much, so it's important to address that. (I'm not sure if the three students are hetersexual, or if it's been eastablished.) But I wish she hadn't said that 'most of all'.

But at the same time, I like her saying that men aren't necessary to complete a woman, and that she advises skipping them entirely and using toys - again, not that this needs to be the One True Message, but it's a good message to have out there mingling with the others. (It would be lovely to have a diversity of feminist messages out in comics; then the few that are there wouldn't need to please everyone.)

[whitesycamore]

We're getting down to fine semantics here; I interpreted that as 'sooner or later, men will disappoint you' rather than 'men will always disappoint you in every situation', so that could be why we feel differently about that.

Ah, I think you might be right about the root of our disagreement. I definitely interpreted her as saying that all men will inevitably disappoint you. I still think that is probably the intended meaning, but I can see why your interpretation is also valid.

I'd've preferred it if she'd laid stress elsewhere; for a woman who's strongly feminist, men will disappoint intellectually quite a lot of the time, and it would have been nice to place emphasis on that. Then, perhaps she feels that as a heterosexual woman, she can get intellectual conversation from other women, but sex, not so much, so it's important to address that. (I'm not sure if the three students are hetersexual, or if it's been eastablished.) But I wish she hadn't said that 'most of all'.

Word. I think it's the "most of all in the bedroom" bit that also struck me as Cartoon Dominatrix-y - a sort of "you pathetic men could not hope to satisfy us awesome goddesses" spiel, which particularly grates on me because I identify somewhat as a dominant woman, and that is not at all how I experience my sexuality.

[proteus_lives]

"Word. I think it's the "most of all in the bedroom" bit that also struck me as Cartoon Dominatrix-y - a sort of "you pathetic men could not hope to satisfy us awesome goddesses" spiel"

She should ask Kelda about Bill, born of Bills.

[shadowpsykie]

She should ask Kelda about Bill, born of Bills.

,.... *whimper* oh Bill....

[proteus_lives]

He's chilling in the Hall of Heroes. He'll be back in Kelda's arms one day.

[valtyr]

On the last bit, one could interpret it as simply Valkyrie's own issues - a mortal man would probably have trouble keeping up with her. ;) I think for this character, what she said is good; but you're right it shouldn't be taken as a completely accurate Here Is How To Do Feminisim or anything. Again, I think it comes back to the lack of diversity in feminist messages - I'm just so glad to see a woman in comics declaring that the patriarchy sucks and the media spoonfeeds damaging messages to girls, and no-one even disputing it. :)

[cleome45]

I mostly agree with all of this.

Plus, given that usually the only kind of feminism we see in these things is the straw kind, I'll be pretty pleased if somebody could tell me that the storyline didn't end with Tigra having to give some speech about how some women overreact when most men are really groovy people deep down and just need our understanding and guidance and yadda yadda yadda.

Also, the art is nice. There's actually still mainstream cartoonists who can draw more than one or two facial expressions-- correctly?!

[single womanly tear of joy goes here]