30 days of Scans meme Day 9: Least favorite male character

[turtlefu]

I know a lot of people won't be happy with me on this, but...

Jason Todd

He is a douche. Simple. He is a bad person. He is a stereotypical 90's anti-hero stuck in modern day comics. He is a character who should have never, NEVER been brought back from the dead. His death actually meant something, and now it means almost nothing because he's back. I simply CANNOT sympathize with him on any level.
He's an asshole, and the reasoning is that he was brought up on the streets, but plenty of people (and characters) have grown up on the street and NOT become horrible people. It's like he's using it as an excuse.
He made me lose all respect for Donna Troy. He makes me eye-roll every single time he is in a comic.
I can't stand him and I really just wish somebody could punch reality and make him go away!

As a bonus:
Not a fan of Tim. I understand he's supposed to be an amazing detective (better than Batman? RIIIIIIIIIIIGHT), but now he's an even better fighter than DAMIEN!? Damien was trained, since birth, by the League of Assassins. How is Tim a better fighter than him?

From the Marvel Universe: The Sentry. Gary Sue character all around who was way too powerful. Glad he's dead and out of the MU. Hope he never comes back

Comments

[hawkmoondirge]

I have to disagree with the faact you say his death is meaningless. His return makes him a walking symbol of batman's greatest failure, and provides the foil for batman. What if you did have a tragic child hood, how would most people adapt? I like him, however I do see why you dislike him. As for the Donna Troy thing, blame countdown. It's easier to stomach everything.

But in the scan you listed he does come off like a raging A-hole

[benicio127]

NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

*loves Jason more*

....................

*runs over to fuckyeahbatkids to do the Jason Todd activity book* There, there, Jay... there, there...

[kagome654]

His death meant squat, which isn't to say that his resurrection was necessary or meaningful, but I don't think his death had the impact that many people claim it did.

[schmevil]

Have to agree. The 'meaning' his death took on was imho largely imposed from outside the book, and not that significant inside its pages. Jason quickly became a shortcut to bat angst, and little more.

[janegray]

Motto.

Supposedly, Jason's death taught Batman that it was wrong to bring children into his personal war. So what did Batman do? He brought three more children into his personal war.

Jason's death taught him nothing, it changed nothing.

[icon_uk]

I more or less agree about Jason, except my apathy kicks in big time.

Damian was trained, since birth, by the League of Assassins to fight to maim and kill, Tim has learned from Bruce, Dick and others, to win the fight by whatever means, and to plan ahead, and to LEARN. Damian never really had to learn as those he fought rarely returned to try again, the same skill set suited him each time against each opponent. By virtue of the no-kill rule, it could be argued that Bruce, Dick, Tim, Cass etc have to be smarter and more versatile than the average assassin.

Where Damian is reactive and aggressive, Tim is careful and cautious, he'll steer the fight to where he can have greater advantage. Plus in the case of Damian, he knows how he fights, so whilst he lost the first time, the second time was bound to be different.

[grazzt]

Damien was trained, since birth, by the League of Assassins. How is Tim a better fighter than him?

Because Damien is only, what, ten? Eleven? A few extra years of muscle growth (to say nothing of a longer reach) can be a nice advantage in combat.

Besides, who is the last really uber fighter the League of Assassins put out? I recall scans posted here of Batman taking out their seven deadliest fighters, at once, with barely any effort at all. And Ubu is pretty much a joke at this point. I suppose they could have gone the Cass Cain route if they wanted him to really rock in combat, but I think Ra's wants his heir to be capable of speaking and reading.

[anewchallenger]

People forget that the skills of a master ASSASSIN =/= hand to hand combat.

[cuntfucius]

Why did you lose respect for Donna Troy? She just gave him a chance, and he blew it by pretty much showing his more psychopathic traits while she was on a pointless adventure with him and telling her to screw off after she saved his life multiple times. Then they never spoke again and countdown never happened, basically.

I love Jason, but I think he's very misused in the sense that he could be a much greater moral foil to the batfamily and instead everyone just acts dickish in his vicinity at him and he just shouts the same stuff over and over again.

[cuntfucius]

Also I have huge issues with how Jason is used for weird fatalistic classist commentary at times. I think he has great potential, and like Morrison said, perhaps redeemable (it doesn't mean he shouldn't serve time, but I mean he can start to ~see the light~), and I just love the guy. He gets overwoobified, like many handsome men in fiction, so I ignore his "draco in leather pants" fandom and just enjoy him for who he is ♥

[turtlefu]

That's sorta my point.
He grew up on the street so he's a bad guy?
Aren't there other people who grew up in poor communities in the DCU yet still turned out fine?
And that right there is probably my least favorite part of Jason. His "Draco in Leather Pants" fandom is just...*sigh*

And I do think he could be redeemable but no writer will ever do it properly.

[benicio127]

He grew up on the street so he's a bad guy?

I think that's a problem with certain writers, not the character, though. His re-creator (Winick) has made him an anti-hero, but Tony Daniel is the one who stressed that Jason's past, including the fact that he comes from the streets, his father was a criminal, his stepmother a drug addict and his real mother betrayed him, the resurrection, the Laz Pit dunking, the perceived betrayal by Batman, etc. are all what have made him bad and irredeemable. Daniel even said he wanted to specifically make Jason irredeemable and eradicate any grey in the character. (The moral ambiguity being that he does bad things to achieve a better means: ie. killing criminals to make Gotham safer).
The growing up on the streets thing -- he rejected the idea of becoming a criminal simply by being Robin. (As well, Batman put him in a school for wayward boys, which turned out to be a front for criminal activity, and he rejected it and even called Batman out on it).


And I do think he could be redeemable but no writer will ever do it properly.

Oh I absolutely think Judd Winick could do it! I think he's also being told by editorial what to do with the character now though. :(

[starwolf_oakley]

Switching subjects regarding "Draco in Leather Pants." I never understood why "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows" didn't have a "The Redemption of Draco Malfoy" chapter. Yeah, Draco was mean, but were we really supposed to think he was "bad"? JKR kept dropping hints that Draco wasn't "evil" but somehow didn't go anywhere with it.

[janegray]

Well, Draco did try and stop his fellow Death Eaters from killing Harry (first he refused to recognize him when Harry was captured with a semi-deformed face, then he tried to convince Crabble and Goyle not to go after Harry), and then he risked his life to drag one of his two heavy friends (I forgot which one) to safety when the room was set on fire instead of ditching him and running.

I still can't say I like Draco. What he did felt very "too little too late" to me. But yes, he did at least try to do some good in the last book.

[arysteia]

Part of my problem is the whole circular nature of the argument. Is he "bad" because he came from the streets (possibly a class argument), or is his being from the streets a partial excuse for being "bad" (possibly a liberal guilt argument)? Strongly linked yes, but not quite the same thing, and it all gets so muddied.

[whitesycamore]

He gets overwoobified, like many handsome men in fiction, so I ignore his "draco in leather pants" fandom and just enjoy him for who he is

Hey, I overwoobify him because of his violent tragic death and because he was meta-textually doomed by editorial, not because of his staggering hotness!

[cuntfucius]

You see, I AM of the opinion that Jason is adorable and needs hugs. I just also know that he's an unpleasant dildo ;(

[whitesycamore]

LOL.

"Bruuuce, Jason's being a dildo!"

[anewchallenger]

"I know a certain Robby Robin who's sleeping with Daddy tonight!"
"Wha?"

...

What, we're not going the 'make it distrubing by finishing the South Park quote OOC' route here?

[benicio127]

His asshole-ness is one of the reasons why I love him so!

[sinorhizobium]

THIS. It's also the reason I love Damien.

[benicio127]

*fistpump for Jason love!*

[benicio127]

Word to all of this. The Batfamily interactions since UtH are either over-the-top or safe and/or focus on physical fighting rather than on the emotional aspect between the characters. There's more fighting going on than there is character development, particularly when it comes to Dick and Jason, who actually had a relationship prior to Jason's death. These two have yet to have a really good storyline dealing with all their shit (Dick's lack of trust, guilt; Jason's jealousy of Dick, anger and need to belong). The best there's been was in Outsiders.

And then, argh, Morrison made it like Countdown did happen. Dammit, Morrison, why?! It was so much more fun when it didn't really happen and it was just a big crackfest in another continuity...

[starwolf_oakley]

Ah, Jason. The character that makes people wonder if he only turned out bad because he was low class. He even went to Mia/Speedy to say "You and I are from the streets, for reals, dawg." Thus leading to all sorts of questions about classism in the Bat-Mythos.

Link to an argument about "classism in the Bat-Mythos."
http://aaron-bourque.livejournal.com/48091.html

If this is the TEEN TITANS issue I'm thinking of, Jason calls out Tim on his "great" detective skills. "Bruce would know if someone was following him. You found out because he *wanted* you to find out."

[cuntfucius]

I think classism in DC and in the Bat Mythos goes wayyyyy deeper and further than just the Jason links/implications, but the separation of certain types of crime and poverty in any argument on class is just ... I don't know, ignoring a lot of intersecting issues.

It's more of the narrative fatalism around his character that annoys me. That suddenly they keep having Bruce be like "I KNEW AT DAT MOMENT...HE WAS BAD... THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG" whenever he thinks of him in the past, that everyone reminisces on how Jason was always dangerous and the FAILED Robin and whatever and like all of Bruce's responsibility is taken off of him because Jason was like that little blonde girl in The Bad Seed apparently.

[hawkmoondirge]

Oh god I remember when alfred was like "Master Bruce knew Jason had a mean streak", it was sooooo f-ed up. He hardly failed as a robin, he was killed because he was written unlikably and it's stuck. Jason was the one who slapped Donna Troy back to normal when she led the teen titans.

[benicio127]

Oh, I don't think the mean streak thing was entirely wrong, though! That was a line from Under the Hood and Winick really knows the character. (He is his re-creator!) I don't think he has ever implied that Jason failed, but there was the whole killing situation with Garzonas.

I think Jason does and did have a mean streak, but to a certain point, because if you look at the Garzonas situation, I don't know what *other* people would have done in the same situation, but I kind of loved Jason all the more for what he did do.

[minyandu]

Ah, this is just why I hate some writers let other characters who know sooooo little about Jason mention him as the BAD ONE, or the FAILED ONE. For god's sake his Robin time may not be successsful but that's waaayyy too far from failure and bad, and DARN IT HE DIDN'T DIE OF FAILURE. I just don't get that if they were trying to make me hate Jason or trying to make me hate the characters they used.
And simplifying Jason isn't getting the effect these writers want. You simplify bad, you simplify good at the same time. I only saw those scans Dick argueing with Babs about Jason's method, I didn't know the whle story, since I already knew Dick know unstopable rage and fear which can really drive you to kill, and as the big brother if Bruce failed Jason he somewhat have a similar responsibility, he has a different way on work from Bruce, I assumed he would try other ways rather than just going all HE'S WROOONG. It's like the writer want someone argue about that, so he just shove Babs and Dick to do the job, since they're always argueing about something.
Yeah, still, I only saw those two pages. But, that part weird me out not just the treatment of Jason, also the treatment they shove to those they label as his counter part.

[freddylloyd]

Yes, classism in the Batman mythos goes back to Bob Kane's aspirations to the millionaire playboy lifestyle.

[halloweenjack]

The one single, solitary time that I could stand Jason was in the Alan Moore-Dave Gibbons Superman Annual, "For The Man Who Has Everything", and that was 100% attributable to Moore. Never liked him otherwise.

I will say this..

[big_daddy_d]

Little Jason in Batman and Sons is very entertaining.

[levyrasputin]

He's an asshole, and the reasoning is that he was brought up on the streets, but plenty of people (and characters) have grown up on the street and NOT become horrible people. It's like he's using it as an excuse.

welll well well, you have a point here, that's why I'm persuaded Jason would be a better character if kept more grey.

What I find enjoyable about him is that he somewhat escapes Bruce's control and evolved into something he'd never want him to become, but yet, it's some sort of alternative answer to Batman. In a way, he makes the Batfamily more complete, and it took me a lot to appreciate him but now I see him like this and enjoy him a lot.

[oximore.livejournal.com]

The funny thing? He is my favorite character in the DC universe & probably one of the less stereotyped when written properly. With a background like his, I can get why he's angy at the world. He got plently of reasons to be angry. But it's just my opinion.



"Not a fan of Tim. I understand he's supposed to be an amazing detective (better than Batman? RIIIIIIIIIIIGHT), but now he's an even better fighter than DAMIEN!? Damien was trained, since birth, by the League of Assassins. How is Tim a better fighter than him?"

That I agree with. It's just ridiculous.