Bat/Cat: The Dark Knight Returns

[drsevarius.insanejournal.com]

Comments

[kamino_neko.insanejournal.com]

I dunno...While Miller and Morrison gave us some of the most egregious examples, I think it was inevitable, too.

For two reasons -

1) Part of the stated backlash is a certain 'superheroes wouldn't be that great, anyway' undercurrent, which leads to trying to show that the 'human' characters - even those that are in costumes (the Batmen, the Green Arrows, and the like) - are in some way 'better' than the superpowered kinds. This can manifest in multiple ways. You can go the route of The Boys, and show the superpowered characters as depraved monsters, while the 'powerless' humans are morally upright victims of the crazy supers. Or, you can go the Batman route, and allow the 'human' characters to out think the ones with powers - 'see, they've got all these amazing powers, but they're not really that awesome, a smart normal can knock them down a peg with no effort!' (This is, I think, Miller's reason for doing it.)

2) A certain amount of verisimilitude has come to be expected - not realism, but the appearance of plausibility (so long as you don't think too hard) - and, under those circumstances, especially with the strain on the Trinity's relationships introduced by the darkening of Batman, his place in the JLA looks...well, a bit implausible. So, the Bat becomes the ludicrously powerful 'can beat God if he's given an hour to prepare' guy we know and loathe to explain it. 'How can he stand shoulder to shoulder with these gods? Well, look what he can do, even without powers!' (Which is, I think, Morrison's reasoning.)

How do you tell version one from version two? Look at how the situation is presented - is the Bat humiliating Superman, or is he holding his own against a foe far above his nominal level ?

[bluefall.insanejournal.com]

is the Bat humiliating Superman, or is he holding his own against a foe far above his nominal level ?

I dunno, I think the one does lead to the other, to a certain extent. Obviously if he's humiliating Superman he *is* holding his own against a foe far above his nominal level, but it works the other direction too, just more subtly. I think of the White Martian arc of Morrison's run, where the Big Guns - a kryptonian, a demigod, a green martian, and a Lantern - all get a big impressive battle victory against, like, one white martian each, and then Batgod takes down three without blinking. Yeah, he's not directly humiliating Superman, but what does it say about the other Leaguers that they all struggled to achieve a third of what he did offhand? What I take away from that story is "why does he even need them, they're useless compared to him," and that's definitely not the intent of the story (which is full of Hell Yeah moments for everybody) - but it remains the glaring subtext.

[enerprime.insanejournal.com]

I honestly don't think that that storyline is a good example of BatGod writing. Superman, Wonder Woman and the others were all fighting fully-powered White martians, while Batman used their specific weakness. Look at how fast GL took down one of them once Flash surrounded him with candles. White Martians aren't all that tough when surrounded by fire. Jimmy Olsen could take out a fire-surrounded WM.

[kamino_neko.insanejournal.com]

Point taken on the first part - I really should have phrased the second half of the sentence differently - You're right that 'humiliating Superman' is 'holding his own against someone above his nominal level' - and I never meant to imply that I thought otherwise. The second half really should have been qualified rather than left bare - my fault.

I can't remember the White Martian story too well, so I can't say whether I agree more with you or enerprime on it. But you're right that it's possible to have one that's meant simply as giving the Bat a badass moment could come out as lessening the others. But it's usually clear which is intended, IME, even if they don't succeed in making that the actual result.

[bluefall.insanejournal.com]

I never meant to imply that I thought otherwise.

Oh, no, I got that - I was just saying that the parallel works both ways, rather than just in the obvious direction.

I dunno, I'm rather predisposed to loathe Batgod, so I'm probably not completely objective, but I can't think of any instance of Bruce playing above his league I've seen that doesn't make someone look like a douche who shouldn't, if only by fridge logic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeLogic) inference. Perhaps taking down Darkseid in "Rock of Ages." Perhaps.

[kamino_neko.insanejournal.com]

Oh, no, I got that - I was just saying that the parallel works both ways, rather than just in the obvious direction.

Ah, OK...just so long as we're both on the same page, then. Agreed on that point, which is an interesting point.

I dunno, I'm rather predisposed to loathe Batgod, so I'm probably not completely objective

Oh, trust me, I'm with you on that.

but I can't think of any instance of Bruce playing above his league I've seen that doesn't make someone look like a douche who shouldn't

I was thinking specifically of their initial fight with the General, when Bruce was subduing him with that hypnotic voice deal. but, now that I've mentioned it specifically, I can't remember just how it ended - I remember Bruce throwing a hissy at Clark, but I can't remember if it was for kill-stealing (my initial instinct), or letting the General get away. (And, unfortunately, I can't conveniently check it right now.) And, of course, it can be taken as condescending that they rushed in to help him (though I didn't see it that way when I first read it - but that may simply be my own bias).

In any case, I do remember my thought about it, when I read it, was that he wanted Bruce to be a badass without pulling down the others, even if he didn't manage that last bit. (And he really made Bruce look bad with the shouting, even if the rest of the team came out looking bad, too - especially if it was the 'kill-stealing' version.)

Which is where the Fridge Logic comes in - if it had been intended, I don't think it would fall into Fridge Logic, but would have been obvious on a first reading. Unless, of course, my pro-Other Leaguers* preference caused me to read them in a better light than intended.

* I put it in a group, since the only Leaguer I liked less under Morrison and Kelly than Bruce is Plastic Man (Morrison just made him annoying, and Kelly had him fall into the same Uber-trap as Batman - Waid, however, made him likable, in Man and Superman, shifting Bruce to last place until the Burning Martian, when Kelly killed that).