mad: Batsanta and Superman (Batsanta and Superman)
[personal profile] mad posting in [community profile] scans_daily
So, recently Kate Beaton made some comments on Twitter about how sometimes guys that like her work will respond with comments she finds creepy/uncomfortable/offensive.

Gabby's Playhouse then did a webcomic entitled "How Every Single Discussion About Sexism and Woman-Type Stuff on the Internet (and real life) Has Ever Happened And Ever Will Happen, Always, Forever, Until the Earth Finally Falls Into The Sun. (Or until the patriarchy is finally dismantled.)"



Comic by Gabbysplayhouse.com
[Source.]

I don't quite get that last panel, but the rest of it is kinda recognizable.

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Date: 2010-10-29 07:05 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] hyperactivator
I love the fragility of the men in this.

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Date: 2010-10-29 07:11 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] falseaesop
I like this in and of itself is sexist by catagorizing all men on the same boat of being insensitive dicks.

Date: 2010-10-29 07:22 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (Cap plays chess)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
I like this in and of itself is sexist by catagorizing all men on the same boat of being insensitive dicks.

Where in the comic does it say 'the insensitive dicks depicted here represent all men'?

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(frozen)

Date: 2010-10-29 07:14 pm (UTC)
halialkers: Mao Zedong smiling with caption "ROFLMAO" (ROFLMAO)
From: [personal profile] halialkers
I'll simply remind people that the most visible so-called feminists in 2010's elections have been none other than Sarah Palin, Christine O'Donnell, and other self-avowed representatives of so-called Christian womanhood. Were I feeling particularly uncharitable I'd note that it's unfortunately possible the USA's first female President (possibly its last President of any sort depending on how far you give her credit for actually governing were she to have the job) would be none other than Sarah Palin.

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Date: 2010-10-29 07:18 pm (UTC)
pizoxuat: From Hark, a Vagrant #202, Dude Watching With the Brontes, by Kate Beaton. (Default)
From: [personal profile] pizoxuat
Thank you? For that reminder? What?

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(frozen) D'oh:

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(frozen) Re: D'oh:

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(frozen) Another bit of fail on my part:

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(frozen) Double-D'Oh:

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Date: 2010-10-29 07:17 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] laddical
From Robot 6:

A useful rule of thumb when discussing the work of a woman artist, positively or negatively, is to ask yourself if what you’re about to say would apply to identical work that just so happened to have been created by a man. If the answer is “no,” then you’re not talking about the work at all.

I'm a man, and I've used the "have a million of X's babies" line in reference to all kinds of things, male, female, and sexless. Plain and simple, for me and most people who use it, the sex of the target and the actual *act* of procreation do not enter into it.

But...

Kate has the right to be upset by what upsets her, regardless of Intent (it's fucking magic!). If she doesn't like it, she doesn't like it, and people who are aware of it should find other ways to express their squee towards her.

And while I've said such a thing to other posters in various forums about something witty they've said, I know how they'll interpret it because, even if it's virtual, I do have *some* relationship with them. I would never go up to - virtually or physically - Kate, or Ron Moore, or Mark Waid, or Nicole Kidman, who don't know me from Adam and use this line on them. THAT is kind of weird, to me.

Date: 2010-10-29 08:19 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
I'm going to repeat what I just coincidentally tweeted here:

The thing about "your work is so good I'd have your babies" is that the sentiment being expressed is "you're so much better than me/the averead, I want to express my subservience to your greatness".

Equating co-creating a child and birthing it with being pwned ("owned") by someone = totally flipping sexist, no matter who you say it to or who you are.

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Date: 2010-10-29 07:18 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: (ask the questions)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
no gay men? :(

gay men more often than not side with women, or in the very least provide a lense for both sides to relate to :)

then again it mighgt still not get through the logic force field :)

Date: 2010-10-29 07:53 pm (UTC)
liara_shadowsong: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liara_shadowsong
Maybe the gay men were just off-panel? Or they decided to stay out of this particular instance? And anyone of either sex with a logic force field will not listen to logic from anyone, opposite sex or their own; I bet the only people commenting there were the handful that happened to need another minute to catch on to the presence of said field. :P

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Date: 2010-10-29 07:26 pm (UTC)
lencannon: shy guy (Default)
From: [personal profile] lencannon
This is very accurate. I read Ms. Beaton's original tweets about the subject and she was totally on-point. The rebuttal blog she retweeted (very generously, in fact) was stupid as fuck and everyone saying that it isn't weird to tell a stranger you want to make babies with them should take a flying leap.

Also kate beaton comics are so great.

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Date: 2010-10-29 07:30 pm (UTC)
thanekos: Kouhei " Principal Garren " Hayami, the Libra Zodiarts, is bugged. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
you know, this is how i always figured shakesville worked.

Date: 2010-10-29 08:33 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] twigcollins
Shakesville works?

Date: 2010-10-29 07:32 pm (UTC)
retro_nouveau: art by Chris Batista, scan by <user name="superfangirl1"> (102)
From: [personal profile] retro_nouveau
All true. This planet is doomed to forming two lines, XX on one side and XY on the other. :(

Men are from Mars, women are from Venus ... and it ain't any easier over here on Saturn, let me tell ya.

Date: 2010-10-29 07:54 pm (UTC)
liara_shadowsong: (evil)
From: [personal profile] liara_shadowsong
What about on Krypton? [/completely missing the point]

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Date: 2010-10-29 07:33 pm (UTC)
mullon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mullon
Right, if anybody needs me I'll be in my bunker until the storms passes.

Date: 2010-10-29 07:35 pm (UTC)
proteus_lives: (Default)
From: [personal profile] proteus_lives
Got room for one more?

I got canned goods and shotgun shells!

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Date: 2010-10-29 07:34 pm (UTC)
halialkers: Picard looking left and gesturing with caption "WTF is this shit?" (WTF is this shit)
From: [personal profile] halialkers
Trying again as my first comment was a bit er......too irrelevant: What kind of jackass makes a comment like that and is surprised someone is offended by it? I mean there's little good that comes of comments like that on the Internet, where most communication is in a text-only medium and there is little reason of necessity to trust people. Telling someone you wanna fuck them over the Internet, unless it's a personals ad, is entirely inappropriate, though US culture has patented defending the indefensible.

Date: 2010-10-29 08:00 pm (UTC)
liara_shadowsong: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liara_shadowsong
Yes. That sort of comment is really only appropriate if it's to someone you know, who will know you are joking, and who you know will know you are joking and not be offended by the joke. There are many things that are a bad idea to say, out loud or in print, unless you already know for certain that the circumstances are such that you will not come off as creepy and offensive. Those circumstances do exist, but some people automatically assume that a situation is one of those when it isn't, and that bothers me.

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Ahem:

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Re: Ahem:

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(frozen) Counterpoint

Date: 2010-10-29 07:34 pm (UTC)
seriousfic: (Default)
From: [personal profile] seriousfic
Jensen Ackles: Here is my performance in the syndicated TV series Supernatural, in which I play Dean Winchester.

Fangirls: Your performance is so good I want to fuck you.

Maybe we should just call a moratorium on all fucking-based compliments?

(frozen) Re: Counterpoint

Date: 2010-10-29 07:42 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (meow)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
a) I'm not sure it's his performance.

b) Yeah, it's kinda creepy to say that directly to someone. (I think saying it about someone, in a place you have no expectation they'll see, is rather different.)

c) We're not talking just about someone wanting to fuck Kate Beaton, this comment is critiquing the form of the debate surrounding it.

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Date: 2010-10-29 07:49 pm (UTC)
lieut_kettch: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lieut_kettch
On Kate Beaton's posts:

I know saying you wanna have someone's babies somewhat implies that you'll need to have sex with them, but I think the point is not that you find them sexually attractive, but that you think their DNA is awesome and it'd only upgrade your family's genepool if his or her DNA were somehow incorporated into it. The sex part doesn't really factor in.

I'm a straight male, and I've often said I'd want a male comic writer or artist's man-babies.

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strannik01: (Default)
From: [personal profile] strannik01
Lordy...

If a woman thinks you are being creepy, you are being creepy. This isn't about some objective truth, it is about a person's feeling, which are innately subjective. So, to anybody who gets offended that their comments creeped someone out - don't. Apologize and move on.
ravenous_raven: Combo headshot of Cass Cain, Steph Brown, and Babs Gordon, the 3 Batgirls, "Bow to the Goddammned Batgirls" in a corner (Default)
From: [personal profile] ravenous_raven
Exactly. It doesn't matter if you meant anything to be sexist/racist/offensive or not. Take a slice of humble pie, admit your mistake, and apologize. Otherwise, persisting in your comments is harassment and defending yourself is ignorant.

And I applaud nor non-amusement

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Date: 2010-10-29 08:01 pm (UTC)
sallymustard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sallymustard
Haha this is perfect!

Date: 2010-10-29 08:36 pm (UTC)
cuntfucius: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cuntfucius
The tears over it are even more perfect.

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Date: 2010-10-29 08:16 pm (UTC)
ext_462267: (pic#561898)
From: [identity profile] jogadoresesquecidos.blogspot.com
I'd DEFINETELY not want to be at the receiving end of that 'compliment'...

Date: 2010-10-29 08:22 pm (UTC)
geoffsebesta: (Default)
From: [personal profile] geoffsebesta
That's some pretty dang good cartooning right there. I especially like the bits with feeding the paper into the internet.

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PS

Date: 2010-10-29 08:25 pm (UTC)
seriousfic: (Default)
From: [personal profile] seriousfic
Not to be too flippant, but how about we replace the offending "I want to have your babies" with "I want to adopt kittens with you"? Not much danger of misinterpretation there.

Re: PS

Date: 2010-10-29 08:26 pm (UTC)
ext_462267: (pic#561898)
From: [identity profile] jogadoresesquecidos.blogspot.com
Kittens YAY!

I want to raise kitties with you?

No wait, that can still me misinterpreted... :(

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(deleted comment)

Date: 2010-10-29 08:30 pm (UTC)
gargoylekitty: (brutus)
From: [personal profile] gargoylekitty
I might have missed it, but where was it implied that it's only creepy when it's a man giving such compliments to a women and not just something creepy overall that?

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Date: 2010-10-29 08:31 pm (UTC)
gargoylekitty: (facepalm)
From: [personal profile] gargoylekitty
I especially love the part where the comic gets further proven to have a valid point in this post.

And by 'love', I mean 'what the hell...'

Date: 2010-10-29 08:33 pm (UTC)
halialkers: Homer Simpson setting cereal on fire with caption "Epic Fail: For Some things there are no excuses." (Epic fail)
From: [personal profile] halialkers
Having contributed to that myself, I must agree that it's a very well-done webcomic.

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Date: 2010-10-29 08:33 pm (UTC)
christianconnor: (Default)
From: [personal profile] christianconnor
If I feeling more frivolous, I'd be counting how many panels of the webcomic we'd ticked off already in this post.

But the fact that it's all so familiar is just dispiriting. Is the needle on the bigmassivehuge internet harddisk at CERN just skipping every couple of months?

I have to keep reminding myself "better than a hundred years ago", because the internet is not offering any sense of progress, of forward momentum, of learning.

Bleargh.

More kittens please.

Date: 2010-10-29 09:00 pm (UTC)
omimouse: Digital painting of a mouse wielding a spear (Default)
From: [personal profile] omimouse
-waves hand-

Through scans_daily, wow_ladies, and ontd_political, myself and my husband have changed for the better on this front. I started life on the internet as one of the women who always jumps into this sort've thing with the, 'but women are so *catty*' type of bullshit.

At some point I stopped posting and just started reading. Somewhere in there I started beating my head into my desk and wondering if it was too late to go back and apologize to a lot of people in a lot of posts on race and sexism. As I talked with my husband about these issues during this time period, something clicked inside his head.

I know it's hard to see any sign of progress or forward momentum at times, and that this is just two people we're talking about here, but there *is* change and some people *do* learn.

Me too!

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Re: Me too!

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Date: 2010-10-29 08:37 pm (UTC)
bradhanon: (Serious editor)
From: [personal profile] bradhanon
NICE cartoon, thank you for linking and posting it. (And is it me, or does something about the composition and layout remind anyone else of Nina Paley?)

As to the issues involved, I have to agree with what some other folks have said: If someone says "That compliment actually creeps me out", the thing to do is not tell them they're wrong. I think most of us, at some point, have said something that the person we said it to has found inappropriate. And I think that most of us, like courteous individuals, generally apologize and either retract the statement, or rephrase it in a more appropriate way.

Also, WOW at the derailing above. That is textbook. What's frustrating for me is that I can see how the point-missing fellas might get that impression; it's a very easy mindset to fall into. It's badly wrong, of course, but it's also popular; the entire Teabagger movement is based on similar thinking. What startles me is how one can fail to notice that one is perfectly reenacting the cartoonish parable one has JUST READ.

Date: 2010-10-29 08:41 pm (UTC)
liara_shadowsong: (do not want)
From: [personal profile] liara_shadowsong
Teabaggers scare me. T_T That is all.

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Date: 2010-10-29 08:42 pm (UTC)
recognitions: (it's monday)
From: [personal profile] recognitions
Wow. I was just here a few hours ago, and now this happened.

Date: 2010-10-29 08:43 pm (UTC)
ext_462267: (pic#561898)
From: [identity profile] jogadoresesquecidos.blogspot.com
RICHAAAARD!

All hail Richard! \o/

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Date: 2010-10-29 08:42 pm (UTC)
cuntfucius: (USELESS)
From: [personal profile] cuntfucius
Okay, so here we go.

Kate Beaton has WEBCOMICS.
Kate Beaton has an LJ.
Kate Beaton has A LOT OF INTERACTION WITH FANS.
Kate Beaton has had fans, many or most of them male from her personal experience, say something to her that she feels is demeaning to her work, not how she wants to be seen or represented, and is just plain offended by it.
In said quote, Kate Beaton says "DEAR INTERNET", not just "DEAR MEN."
However, MEN all over the internet flip their shit, from her fanboys on various chans to angry rebuttals reblogged and retweeted.

As a lesbosaurus, I will say that it bothers me when girls, particularly straight girls, say things like "Get in my pants now" and "I want to have your babies" when I say something they agree with. Mostly because I am like "dude no way, you'd freak out and get homopanic most likely if I hit on you directly, and P.S. why do you think that's the only kind of validation I want from you? Because I like girls?" Kate, as a heterosexual (ID'd? I'm pretty sure) woman, must face this with men.

Is it any less creepy when fangirls repeat memetic ideas and behavior about RL movie stars or whatever when their response to someone saying something intelligent (which is different than, let's say, displaying yourself for your looks like in modeling or w/e, and even then we can get into nuances about talent and art), with "GET INSIDE ME NOW" and whatnot. But they do not have the similar consistent communication with the object of their affection as Kate Beaton's fans have with her. Men who have this kind of interaction with their fans also might feel creeped out like Kate does by some comments, or just plain annoyed.

Similarly, this comic shows that the systemic response of repeated ideas and parking lot mentality is an IMBALANCED structure in the sexes. It does not mean that it does not exist in the reverse.

Easy squeazy lemon peezy, right?

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Date: 2010-10-29 09:06 pm (UTC)
stolisomancer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stolisomancer
Seems like common sense to me. If the compliment is well-intended but its target finds it creepy, it's still creepy, and it's not worth starting an argument over.

(Although I was just reading this interview with her at Comics Alliance, and now I feel bad that my first reaction upon loading the link was "Hey, she's really cute.")

Date: 2010-10-29 09:09 pm (UTC)
ext_462267: (Default)
From: [identity profile] jogadoresesquecidos.blogspot.com
Oh but she is! But we both know that's not exactly the point.

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Date: 2010-10-29 09:19 pm (UTC)
midnightvoyager: (Crazy Jane)
From: [personal profile] midnightvoyager
I enjoy mechanical pencils. You can get a really fine point on them and make really fine lines, you know? I'm not sure why, but I vastly prefer a fine point when shading. Perhaps it's an oddity with my style.
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Scans Daily
Founded by girl geeks and members of the slash fandom, [community profile] scans_daily strives to provide an atmosphere which is LGBTQ-friendly, anti-racist, anti-ableist, woman-friendly and otherwise discrimination and harassment free.

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