mad: Batsanta and Superman (Batsanta and Superman)
KILLJOY CANUCK ([personal profile] mad) wrote in [community profile] scans_daily2010-10-29 02:40 pm

Gabby's Playhouse: Discussing Sexism on the Internet

So, recently Kate Beaton made some comments on Twitter about how sometimes guys that like her work will respond with comments she finds creepy/uncomfortable/offensive.

Gabby's Playhouse then did a webcomic entitled "How Every Single Discussion About Sexism and Woman-Type Stuff on the Internet (and real life) Has Ever Happened And Ever Will Happen, Always, Forever, Until the Earth Finally Falls Into The Sun. (Or until the patriarchy is finally dismantled.)"



Comic by Gabbysplayhouse.com
[Source.]

I don't quite get that last panel, but the rest of it is kinda recognizable.

[personal profile] falseaesop 2010-10-29 07:11 pm (UTC)(link)
I like this in and of itself is sexist by catagorizing all men on the same boat of being insensitive dicks.
valtyr: (Cap plays chess)

[personal profile] valtyr 2010-10-29 07:22 pm (UTC)(link)
I like this in and of itself is sexist by catagorizing all men on the same boat of being insensitive dicks.

Where in the comic does it say 'the insensitive dicks depicted here represent all men'?

[personal profile] laddical 2010-10-29 07:26 pm (UTC)(link)
The sweeping generalization that this is how every conversation on sexism ever goes and the blank faces filled only with gender symbols while dividing the two factions along strictly gender lines goes a long way to giving that impression.
nezchan: From Sita Sings the Blues (women's issues)

[personal profile] nezchan 2010-10-29 07:28 pm (UTC)(link)
This, for some strange reason, reminds me of how every public discussion of women's issues ends up with someone, without a trace of irony, bemoaning, "But...the poor men!"

Just sayin'.

[personal profile] laddical 2010-10-29 07:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Huh. I... I don't see any self-pity or gender-pity in my statement. Merely a response to the question of why someone might interpret this comic as saying all men are insensitive dicks. In this comic, all women are right and all men are wrong; there is no cross-over wherein some women support the male blogger and some men support the female artist. Where there is no specificity, only generalization, it's not hard to get the idea that "the insensitive dicks depicted here represent all men."
halialkers: Cartoon of stick figure at computer with caption "Someone is wrong on the Internet," (A drama queen thou art)

[personal profile] halialkers 2010-10-29 07:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Look at it again. It's referring to a person that the writer of the post doesn't know from Adam saying "that comment's worth fucking you for". She objects, rightly. A sexist circlejerk ensues and all the sexists rally to support each other. It's not referring to the people who would not say such a thing, but the people who rally to defend the ones who do, of which that's something a bit too common in our society as it is.

[personal profile] laddical 2010-10-29 07:46 pm (UTC)(link)
And I believe you are correct. But the risk associated with art like this is that some people will focus on something and take away something that wasn't the author's intent, and I was trying to explain why someone might read it that way.
halialkers: Tyrannosaurus side view with S-curve, long deep muzzle (Tyranos)

[personal profile] halialkers 2010-10-29 07:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Except that your comment did not come across as referring to a subgroup of people possibly seeing it as such, it came across as your being the spokesperson for all men, who are all lumped into one category. The miscommunication arises from this.

[personal profile] laddical 2010-10-29 07:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Please be clear that I am not falseaesop and he is not me and I don't share the opinion he asserted, I merely tried to answer valtyr's question.
halialkers: Homer Simpson setting cereal on fire with caption "Epic Fail: For Some things there are no excuses." (Epic fail)

D'oh:

[personal profile] halialkers 2010-10-29 07:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Fail on my part, I apologize for the mistake.
stig: "It Was A Boojum..." (Default)

[personal profile] stig 2010-10-31 02:02 pm (UTC)(link)
Although, to go off on a tangent, that's the risk associated with ALL art. E.g., I doubt very much that Leonardo da Vinci was hoping that he'd become the titular theme of a series of books on paranoid arglebargle and foofarah when he first painted The Last Supper.
junipepper: (Default)

[personal profile] junipepper 2010-11-02 09:01 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, this! I was just going to make almost the same comment.
airawyn: (Robin 4/Stephanie)

[personal profile] airawyn 2010-10-29 07:29 pm (UTC)(link)
Wow, you guys are doing a fabulous job of convincing me that not all men are sexist dicks.

[personal profile] falseaesop 2010-10-29 07:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Sorry, I felt insulted by this. Particularly the panel where women and only women are giving logical fact based arguements and the man is ignoring them all, followed by all men following a I AM SPARTICUS call to ignorance.

The thing about this comics is you could switch the sexes in the arguement being presented in his comic wihtout a whole lot of change (dick statue not withstanding).

Take it from a guy who has been stalked by a woman (restraining orders creepy following around, looking through my windows at 3am, actual fucking stalker) women can be just as creepy as degenerate men on the internet.

So lets reverse the rolls. Lets say guy tries to disuade a creepy fangirl, the fangirl takes offense and blog posts about how the guy was being sexist. Guy tries to explain how he making a statement about her, not her gender, girl ignores all logical argument and starts screaming about feminism, other women flock to her cause. Guy feels defeaed by the overwhelming force and is sorry he said anything in the first place.

Would you say that comic is being sexist in its depiction of the sexes?

I don't like this comic, I'm not saying guys can't be creepy dicks, I just think this comic while trying to make a statement about sexism isn't self aware enough to realize that it itself is sexist.

And yes I AM aware that I, in my rambling way can be said to be fufilling the "Let me explain how you are wrong blah blah blah blah" role. I just don't think this comic is being fair.
airawyn: (Default)

[personal profile] airawyn 2010-10-29 07:47 pm (UTC)(link)
How often a day do you fear for your physical safety because you're in the presence of a strange woman?

[personal profile] falseaesop 2010-10-29 07:59 pm (UTC)(link)
*sigh* Alright, you want to talk about fear? I ended up really screwed up because of a relationship alright? I dated a girl, she got very clingy, I broke up with her and she started stalking me. I mean seriously stalking me. Following me around town, looking in my windows at night, calling me all the time even though I made it clear the relationship was over.

I am a big strong man, a foot taller than her, and even though she had military service I have no doubt in a physical confrontation I could have hurt her... but I never touched her, never. I am not a violent person, I walk away from confrontation.... but still stopped going places because I didn't to run into her. Because she'd try to talk, I'd try to leave, she'd start throwing a fit and I was powerless FUCKING POWERLESS to do anything about it. Could I have hit her? Yes, but that'd be wrong so what could I do? Nothing, fucking nothing, nothing but try to sneak around my own life to avoid her. I changed numbers, I fucking moved, but she still kept showing up.

The police were no help, they seemed amused by the whole thing, big strong guy who is worried about this small woman. Years I put up with this shit fucking YEARS. I haven't been in a relationship for six years, even though I've had women ask ME out... because I have trust issues out the fucking wazoo from this shit. I live alone, I avoid the movie theatres because she works at them and I never know which one she's going to be at because even now 8 years later she still fuckign corners me and tells me "She loves me". So yes for the past six years I've been to scared of intamacy to let anyone get close to me, I haven't had sex in six years. The only close friends I have are the ones I had before that relationship because I don't fucking trust people anymore.

So yeah, please tell me about fear.
airawyn: (Default)

[personal profile] airawyn 2010-10-29 08:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Wow, is that information not relevant to this discussion.
megaspork: "Hello Mr. Hat!" (Default)

[personal profile] megaspork 2010-10-29 08:28 pm (UTC)(link)
...You asked how often a day he fears for his safety from a strange woman. How is that not relevant? He described in detail how he has done so for 6 whole years, in great detail.
He answered your specific question, being a singular person who you asked this question of. The logic to where it is not relevant at all must be astounding since I explained why in three seconds.
valtyr: (cap close up)

[personal profile] valtyr 2010-10-29 08:31 pm (UTC)(link)
No it's not. An ex-girlfriend is not a strange woman. Yes, it sounds like a terrifying experience and he has my sympathy, but it has nothing to do with fearing for his physical safety in the presence of strange women.
megaspork: "Hello Mr. Hat!" (Default)

[personal profile] megaspork 2010-10-29 08:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Yet he also explains that as a result of that one woman... he is fearful of other women in general as a result, having that one 'strange' relationship has made him fearful of others being just like her.
The situation in a general sense (one person has made a person fearful of all other people similar to them) is comparable to the kind of crimes that would make one fearful of strange people. Not quite on the same level of course, but it is relevant in the sense there are similar logical paths to what happened.
Airawyn hit the point in the post below mine of what I meant.
valtyr: (cap close up)

[personal profile] valtyr 2010-10-29 08:43 pm (UTC)(link)
Trust issues =/= fearing for physical safety though.

The phrasing sounds more like he's afraid to get into relationships because he'll be abused (which is, yes, serious and upsetting, but not relevant to the question), not that he's afraid strange women will attack him if they're alone together.
megaspork: "Hello Mr. Hat!" (Default)

[personal profile] megaspork 2010-10-29 08:48 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't know, the fact she was stalking him to the point of peaking in windows in his place conveys the idea she might break in...and no one thinks of that and not fear for their lives.
valtyr: (cap close up)

[personal profile] valtyr 2010-10-29 09:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, sorry, I think he's physically scared of the ex (and rightfully so) and has trust issues with strange women (not unreasonably). I don't read it as he's physically scared of strange women. Which was what the question was. And like, obviously his situation was and is awful, but it's not really relevant to the culture of fear which a huge number of women experience.
megaspork: "Hello Mr. Hat!" (Default)

[personal profile] megaspork 2010-10-29 09:46 pm (UTC)(link)
After some thought, I realized I can see what you're talking about now Valtyr. It's the fear of the party versus the fear of the street gang comparison that I was blanking over. I can agree to that at least, directly the situation is different in that sense.
I think part of it was my own experiences with my younger sister in the past...We've worked out things since then, but when I was in high school and babysitting her (she's 4 years younger)... there were a few times that I had to physically grapple her off me before she stabbed a screwdriver in my eye for pointing out she had a bed time since she wasn't making grades. x_x;
valtyr: (rescue)

[personal profile] valtyr 2010-10-29 10:06 pm (UTC)(link)
See, I think the problem is that people always relate stuff like this to their experience; and if you're a dude who's been abused by women, then a comic about how men are assholes to women is going to seem unfair, of course. (And I'm sorry about your experiences with your sister, they sound alarming.)

But I think it's important to remember that individual experience isn't group experience, and realise if it's not about you, it's not about you. I doubt anyone in this discussion thinks all men are assholes and all women are reasonable; but this is about the situations where a bunch of men are being assholes to women, so that's what's there.
darrylayo: (Default)

[personal profile] darrylayo 2010-10-29 11:09 pm (UTC)(link)
I've been abused by women but still can relate to the fact that the overarching culture of patriarchal oppression bears down harder on women in general and over all.

I don't think that a personal and anecdotal experience, no matter how horrible, counterbalances the entire history of human culture, which has so much oppression of women and hatred for women ingrained in it, that most people go to their graves not "understanding" "the problems."

I think it's a terrible derailment to call B.S. on a critique of misogyny because of personal experiences of being harmed by women.

Or the short version: Just because women have harmed you doesn't mean that the patriarchal system of destroying women doesn't exist.
airawyn: (Default)

[personal profile] airawyn 2010-10-29 08:36 pm (UTC)(link)
If that has made him fear for his safety from every single woman he meets, then it's relevant, but I still don't need to know about his intimacy issues or the last time he had sex. That's way too much info for this discussion.
megaspork: "Hello Mr. Hat!" (Default)

[personal profile] megaspork 2010-10-29 08:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah, then we're in agreement with what is relevant. :)
I can agree there was a little too much information involved, though I can understand why he decided to. I think it was more of a matter of showing how badly it effected him, so that it didn't seem like he was joking.
airawyn: (Default)

[personal profile] airawyn 2010-10-29 08:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, sorry I got snippy. I don't think he's joking and I believe his experiences are genuine and awful. Men don't have a monopoly on being cruel to other people. I just felt uncomfortable with that level of detail.
megaspork: "Hello Mr. Hat!" (Default)

[personal profile] megaspork 2010-10-29 09:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Sok, I got a little snippy too. :) At least we came to an agreement on things, that's how things start changing, right?
airawyn: (Default)

[personal profile] airawyn 2010-10-29 09:18 pm (UTC)(link)
It's a start! :)
(deleted comment)
valtyr: (cap close up)

[personal profile] valtyr 2010-10-29 08:32 pm (UTC)(link)
She asked him about fearing for his physical safety in the presence of strange women. His answer said nothing about that.
greenmask: (Default)

[personal profile] greenmask 2010-10-29 09:09 pm (UTC)(link)
You have my sympathy for this situation and I hope that you escape it.

If you'll allow it and are willing to continue this conversation, I'd like to point out a line in your comment that expresses the difference between your experience, and the life experience of the platonic 'woman'.
christianconnor: (Amanda OMG)

[personal profile] christianconnor 2010-10-29 08:09 pm (UTC)(link)
"How often a day...?"

I know that strange men can often be intimidating and situations can be frightening ... but that frequently?

...wow

We really can't ever apply reverse-the-roles for these situations can we?
greenmask: (Default)

[personal profile] greenmask 2010-10-29 08:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Every man we meet could be a rapist.

Including the ones we already know.
lilpocketninja: (Default)

[personal profile] lilpocketninja 2010-10-29 08:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Statistically speaking, especially the ones we know.
greenmask: (Default)

[personal profile] greenmask 2010-10-29 08:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Ugh. Don't remind me.

(Except do, because, public knowledge!)
lilpocketninja: (Default)

[personal profile] lilpocketninja 2010-10-29 08:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, sorry. :/ Eugh this whole thread is so depressing and the comic is so awesome.
greenmask: (Default)

[personal profile] greenmask 2010-10-29 08:34 pm (UTC)(link)
It is!

Except for missing the "I wasn't offended so sexism doesn't count" ladies, who are often quite a feature of debate regarding feminist offence.
cleome45: (luthor1*)

[personal profile] cleome45 2010-10-30 03:06 am (UTC)(link)
Just came back from a brisk round of that on another fan board.

Thankfully, vodka exists. It was very helpful afterward. :/
greenmask: (Default)

[personal profile] greenmask 2010-10-30 11:25 am (UTC)(link)
Ugh. Bummest of bummers.

Cheers!
benicio127: (Lois love)

sorry, sorry thread hijack

[personal profile] benicio127 2010-10-29 11:07 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm so happy to see you joined S_D, I <3 your brain! (I'm georgethecat on tumblr)

Totally bad moment to be excited because ugh, but yay you!



[personal profile] twigcollins 2010-10-29 08:31 pm (UTC)(link)
This is not remotely a reality in my life as a woman.
greenmask: (Default)

[personal profile] greenmask 2010-10-29 08:33 pm (UTC)(link)
Fair enough.
whitesycamore: (Default)

[personal profile] whitesycamore 2010-10-30 01:35 am (UTC)(link)
Ok. But for many women it is, and for good reason. For example women who grew up with a family member who was a rapist, or women who suffered partner violence, or y'know, any woman who was raped and just wasn't expecting that.

Those experiences can put one a little on edge.
cs_winchester: (Default)

[personal profile] cs_winchester 2010-10-30 03:15 am (UTC)(link)
Or any woman who lives in an apartment and has no choice but to walk her small dog after dark because not to do so could be considered animal cruelty.

(And I didn't live in an apartment when i got the dog but I had to move to a gated community to hide form my ex, in case anyone wants to say "Don't get a dog if you live in an apartment")
airawyn: (Default)

[personal profile] airawyn 2010-10-29 08:32 pm (UTC)(link)
This is a fantastic essay about how women see men.

The Gift Of Fear is a really good book on personal safety that addresses the threats women have to deal with. The author says, "Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them." (He also takes on workplace violence and bomb threats, among other things. I'd recommend it to anyone to read.)

So no, you can't really reverse it. A crudely sexual comment from some guy on the internet can feel like a physical threat to a woman. And I know that many guys are decent (and there's women who are dangerous) but the odds are against you guys.

And that's before you even start talking about GENERAL sexism issues, like workplace inequality and such.
christianconnor: (Default)

[personal profile] christianconnor 2010-10-29 08:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Thank you - I've bookmarked both links.

Will read the essay as soon as I stop (a) accidentally cutting my hand on sharp soup tin and (b) setting fire to kitchen towel while trying to mop up spilled soup.
benicio127: (Lois love)

[personal profile] benicio127 2010-10-29 11:55 pm (UTC)(link)
I honestly wonder about the one in six women have been sexually assaulted statistic. Because I truly think it's much higher than that. The majority of women I know have been sexually assaulted in some way, including myself. And that's not even counting stalking and intimidation that myself and other girlfriends have faced.
I honestly believe that statistic has a lot to do with underreporting (due to shame, stigma, distrust of police, etc.) I could honestly see that statistic being much closer to one in four.
kingrockwell: he's a sexy (Babs Gordon)

[personal profile] kingrockwell 2010-10-30 12:21 am (UTC)(link)
I've actually heard it given as one in four before.
whitesycamore: (Default)

[personal profile] whitesycamore 2010-10-30 12:47 am (UTC)(link)
I've heard it given as 1 in 4, too. But when I think about it seriously, I'm pretty sure the majority of women in the world have been/will be sexually assaulted in some way or another, even if it didn't take a form most people would consider "serious". Don't forget being in denial as a reason for under-reporting. A lot of the time people let really fucked up stuff slide because they don't want to make a big deal over it, because they don't even think it IS a big deal.

And I know that some people think identifying oneself as a victim of sexual assault is over-sharing or TMI or whatever, but for what it's worth I think it's a brave and helpful act. So yeah, I'm one too and we are not at all rare.
benicio127: (Lois love)

[personal profile] benicio127 2010-10-30 02:53 pm (UTC)(link)
*hugs*

Absolutely, there's underreporting. I did a huge series on domestic violence in a small town and the domestic violence that was reported was much more than similar eastern Ontario cities. And part of that huge series was why not only women don't report, but also why at the trial process they'll recant.
And then the reasons why they do recant were myriad and varied, too, and don't have to just do with fear of their abuser at all. Sometimes it's because their significant other has gone through a program to help him change his ways and the women recant because they just want to get their family back together. It's very complicated and the worst part of it is that more likely than not women get blamed (for their predicament!) at every level.
minyandu: "I made this!" (Default)

[personal profile] minyandu 2010-10-30 02:33 am (UTC)(link)
You know, think about reporting someone equals going over the whole experience, which is never pleasant, and spending time on the law process that can drain your energy and mess with your mood, I'd rather spend 5 minute beat that guy to a pulp...But still you have the ability to beat down a guy doesn't mean you don't feel offended or insecure or afraid.
Sex is something very intimate, requiring great trust and responsibility because you are exposing you vulnerable part, physically or emotionally, to each other. Being sexually assaulted by someone, even just being groped on a bus, can really do serious damage because it means you are losing you right to you own body, and that's a very basic part of people's mind and self-esteem.
And I seriously don't think women is the only victim of sexism to female. Police ignoring men get home violence, boys going depress and suicide because they think they are not macho enough or get bullied for it, Some people choose to rape men or boys because it give them more satisfaction of dominance, etc. I don't really have the number but these all truly exist, right? The sexism to women also push men to an insecure stage because losing any kind of so-called manhood means losing the basic building block of being a man=human to them. It's a very nasty backfire of sexism. I'm no man, and I seriously doubt if this worth it. I find living to those be-like-a-girl standards is ridiculous if those standards means I can't do something I like. I don't know how guys are thinking about this, seriously. I play with boys a lot because I got bigot by girls for reason I don't know in kindergarten and still I don't understand some guy.

Sorry for the long post benicio127, I know I've been digressing way far from your post and the webcomic...OTL
merseybeatler: Your king volcano. (Default)

[personal profile] merseybeatler 2010-10-30 05:54 am (UTC)(link)
My dad dated a chick who attempted to poison him after he broke up with her for being a creepy stalker. A few months later, after being dumped by my dad's best friend, that same woman gave him a chocolate cake as a 'no hard feelings' gift. They found slivers of sharp metal baked into the cake.

So yeah, women can be scary motherfuckers, too. My dad got over it, but his friend is still kind of paranoid around women.
big_daddy_d: (pic#)

[personal profile] big_daddy_d 2010-10-30 11:15 pm (UTC)(link)
....holy shit... Why isn't this woman locked up?
merseybeatler: Your king volcano. (Default)

[personal profile] merseybeatler 2010-10-31 04:49 am (UTC)(link)
She may well have been in the years since, I don't think anyone I know has had any contact with her for decades. At the time my dad and company were young, poor, and making a living off forging 18th century belt-buckles and leather flyswatters, and probably not living in particularly legal housing.
valtyr: (Cap rain)

[personal profile] valtyr 2010-10-29 07:57 pm (UTC)(link)
followed by all men following a I AM SPARTICUS call to ignorance.

all men

WHERE.
airawyn: (Default)

[personal profile] airawyn 2010-10-29 07:59 pm (UTC)(link)
You know what, I'm not going to argue with you. If you really give a shit, go here and do some reading: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/
recognitions: (Default)

[personal profile] recognitions 2010-10-29 08:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Dude, you're so far beyond proving the comic author's point for them.
s0mnambulance: (Default)

[personal profile] s0mnambulance 2010-10-30 12:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Agreed. I was amused by the webcomic, and think that it brings up some interesting points...but at the same time, I think that it does generalize, and I too would call it sexist. As falseaesop concludes, I do believe that this would receive a very different reaction if the roles were reversed. I think that most of the rebuttals to this point ("Well have you ever been..." or "It's different for women..."), however true, speak nothing to the sexism of the webcomic.

I'm a man and took a couple of feminist literature courses in college. During that time, I met a variety of women who were very serious about gender equality and opposing the patriarchy. Some of these people were rational and understood that sexism can be a two-way street (Kristeva's work on feminism endorses this view somewhat). Others turned EVERYTHING into arguments about the patriarchy, called anyone who watched a movie with a nude scene a misogynist, and basically earned eye-rolls from everyone else in the classroom--even their peers.

When I see a defense for this webcomic not being sexist, I'm reminded of the latter category. Again, I enjoyed reading this and believe that the scenario is representative of what women actually experience publishing their art/writing etc. to the Web--but I also believe that it was a bit heavy-handed and, yes, sexist in its generalizations.

When I read old crime novels, I recognize that women are portrayed negatively, and that such portrayals are degrading to women. I recognize this, lament it, and enjoy the book anyway. Same with this webcomic. Fun read, but yeah, it's sexist.
kingrockwell: he's a sexy (Mod Hat)

[personal profile] kingrockwell 2010-10-30 03:24 pm (UTC)(link)
You are in a feminist community. There is no place for strawfeminist arguments here. Your having taken classes about gender studies in college does not make you an expert on gender, especially over those who have actual lived experience with sexism.

And it isn't yours to decide who's being "rational" about feminism and who's overreacting. Sexism is about an imbalance, where men are privileged over women. It doesn't go both ways. Women do not have the power in society to back up their "prejudice" against men, that is not sexism.

And caricaturing sexist men in a comic about sexism is not itself sexist. It is representing the men who are relevant to this particular example. Any other men are unrelated to the topic. Women are the marginalized group in our society, they are the ones against whom sexism is leveled, so they are the ones relevant in showing who sexism affects.

It should not be this comic's obligation to include a few men backing up the ladies' complaints to make the "not-sexist" men feel good about themselves. If the complaint leveled isn't about something you do (even though you're doing it right now), then don't make it about you.

How the posters above cannot recognise their own utterly sexist attitudes defies belief.

"Every man we meet could be a rapist. Including the ones we already know."

What a delightful statement! If it was reversed to be some demeaning attribute about women, this forum would be up in arms. But labeling all men as potential rapists is just fine?

"And caricaturing sexist men in a comic about sexism is not itself sexist. It is representing the men who are relevant to this particular example. Any other men are unrelated to the topic."

So a crude joke about a blond and a bar stool, or similarly sexist quip, is fine because it's only representing the "relevant women"? Please, you wouldn't accept this justification the other way around.

"Women are the marginalized group in our society, they are the ones against whom sexism is leveled, so they are the ones relevant in showing who sexism affects."
"Sexism is about an imbalance, where men are privileged over women. It doesn't go both ways."

Whilst I'd of course accept that women are far more likely to encounter sexism on a social level, Sexism against men is rife in the legal system:

  • - Harman's legally enforced "positive discrimination" provisions under the Equality Act, in addition to existing company quota policies.
  • - Countless grants and training schemes available only to women.
  • - The long standing maternity v paternity leave gap, at least until April 11.
  • - Grossly imbalanced rights relating to children, including child custody and support.

Of course Sexism is alive and well and a significant problem in our society. But the pot-kettle-black male stereotypes propagated here and increasing legal discrimination against men ensure that this is very much a 2 way issue.

A quote from a "Wymen's" forum I came across recently (linked as an example of the difficulty in differentiating between extreme views and satire): "Every time a man has sex with a woman, he is raping her." I'd LOL if this wasn't expressed in absolute sincerity and subsequently applauded by all other commentators ("I hadn't thought of it that way before. But you're absolutely right. It is rape.").

The quotes herein are not "spreading the word of inequality". They're simply anti-male. In what way does that help?

This was bona fide (http://womensspace.wordpress.com/2008/01/27/carnival-of-radical-feminist-anti-pornography/#comment-83129), I just didn't have the link to hand. Here's the actual quote - watch as the commentators climb over each other to declare how vile the male sex is:


  • Hectate: "That's what sex is: a means to control and subjugate wymmyn. It’s a form of abuse, plain and simple. The worst part is, they were all rapists and didn’t even know it. My heart weeps for the wymmyn those men ended up with. They’re rape victims. All heterosexual wymmyn are."
  • Satsuma: "Yes, I believe that’s true. All heterosexual women are rape victims. I never put this thought into words, but now that I read Hecate’s post, it makes perfect sense to me."
  • Debs: "Wow (again) Hecate’s words make perfect sense to me too. Hecate should get a blog and write about this stuff, I want to read more! I believe that too, “all heterosexual women are rape victims.” It’s so hard to say, but that’s probably because it’s true."
  • Etc ...


That thread is a good example of the group man-bashing that these discussions descend into, as appears to have also happened here. Gabby posts a fairly decent bit of satire and soon a bitter few start spouting lines like "Every man we meet could be a rapist.". Ripe for it's own satirical response, non?

I clearly acknowledged the major obstacles that Sexism creates for women and believe a cultural shift is needed to address this. However, I take exception (and anyone here would in the reverse) to hateful generalisations torward men (without so much as an inkling of irony in the context of a discussion about Sexism!) and the repeated assertion that it's a one-way street - see my points above.

But feel free to post another "Huh d'huh" reply, Miz Mad. Or perhaps -shock- appreciate that this thread leaves something to be desired in terms of overcoming stereotypes.
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2010-10-29 08:09 pm (UTC)(link)
But my dick is sexist... it only reacts to cute guys! :)

[personal profile] laddical 2010-10-29 08:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Here. Have a fresh baked internet.
greenmask: (Default)

[personal profile] greenmask 2010-10-29 08:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Also cute-ist. You're a villain.
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2010-10-29 08:22 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm British, the "villain" part was more or less mandatory.
greenmask: (Default)

[personal profile] greenmask 2010-10-29 08:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I am always forgetting that aspect of our heritage.
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2010-10-29 08:51 pm (UTC)(link)
It's always nice to have it to fall back on though....
greenmask: (Default)

[personal profile] greenmask 2010-10-29 08:52 pm (UTC)(link)
True!
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)

[personal profile] nezchan 2010-10-29 09:07 pm (UTC)(link)
And occasionally "villein", one would assume.
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2010-10-30 12:48 am (UTC)(link)
Oi, I'm nobody's serf thank you very much!
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)

[personal profile] nezchan 2010-10-30 12:51 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, I'm sure if there were an Elseworlds that contained Lord Grayson, you could be convinced to try it out for a spell.
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2010-10-30 12:57 am (UTC)(link)
If there were a Lord Grayson around, I wouldn't want to be a serf, I'd want to be practising all my dark magic skills and prepping the dungeon for a new guest... So a spell would be involved, but not in the sense you meant.
merseybeatler: Your king volcano. (Default)

[personal profile] merseybeatler 2010-10-30 05:57 am (UTC)(link)
I was under the impression that all gay British men were Quentin Crisp.
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2010-10-30 09:16 am (UTC)(link)
If I had half the remarkable courage of Quentin Crisp (an effeminate homosexual at a time when even being that in the UK was illegal), I think I would be a much more admirable person.

We also have Sir Ian McKellan on our side now.
merseybeatler: Your king volcano. (Default)

[personal profile] merseybeatler 2010-10-30 02:30 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, yes, that's right! Love Ian.


Queen Gandalf:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3gR0m2mCGs
airawyn: (Default)

[personal profile] airawyn 2010-10-29 08:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, but your dick likes tied-up guy Robins. I have no disagreements there.
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2010-10-29 09:09 pm (UTC)(link)
icon_uk bows respectfully
thebigapricot: (Default)

[personal profile] thebigapricot 2010-10-29 07:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Boo fucking hoo. It's not about every conversation on sexism. It's specifically about internet conversations go. And um, hello kettle - you're black.

[personal profile] laddical 2010-10-29 07:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Pardon me for leaving out an adjective.

Also: this is not my point of view. It is a specific response to a specific question. A devil's advocate, if you will.
gargoylekitty: (ragekitty)

[personal profile] gargoylekitty 2010-10-29 08:18 pm (UTC)(link)
The devil doesn't need advocates. Stop.
icon_uk: (Default)

[personal profile] icon_uk 2010-10-29 10:23 pm (UTC)(link)
The devil doesn't need any more advocates, surely? :)
kingrockwell: he's a sexy (Ferdinand)

[personal profile] kingrockwell 2010-10-29 11:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, if we could get the existing ones to quit it, that'd be cool too!
ext_79087: robin-thighs (robin thighs)

[identity profile] wasabi.livejournal.com 2010-10-30 02:20 am (UTC)(link)
I want to practice Supernatural Law.
angelophile: (Default)

[personal profile] angelophile 2010-10-29 08:55 pm (UTC)(link)
If you express a view, it will be assumed that is your opinion.

Be sure what you are saying is how you feel. You're judged by what you say, not the intention behind it. No one has the ability to tell whether you mean what you say by reading your words and it will be assumed you do. Otherwise, why say it? "This is an opinion I don't have, but I'm saying it." Wut?
valtyr: (Cap rain)

[personal profile] valtyr 2010-10-29 07:37 pm (UTC)(link)
As I said to [personal profile] halialkers below, it doesn't say that the Y chromosome has a monopoly on assholishness. It says that mainstream discussions on sexism tend to involve a lot of loud male assholes telling a lot of women what is and is not sexist. Which is true. Which has just happened.

The fact you've decided the best response to this is to get indignant about how men are being maligned isn't great, really. If you're a man, but not an asshole who likes to tell women that they're wrong about sexism? This comic is not about you.

while dividing the two factions along strictly gender lines

How horrid to suggest that sexism frequently falls out on gender lines. :|



[personal profile] laddical 2010-10-29 07:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Where did I get indignant? You asked a question; I responded with why some people might see it that way.
valtyr: (meow)

[personal profile] valtyr 2010-10-29 07:47 pm (UTC)(link)
Your initial response to the post? "I like this in and of itself is sexist by catagorizing all men on the same boat of being insensitive dicks." Reads indignant to me. Affronted, if you prefer, I'm not hung up on the word.

The point is, you chose to focus (whether indignantly or in a state of serene calm) on the treatment of men when the comic is talking about how a bunch of assholes just told some women they were all wrong about sexist and what's offensive.

[personal profile] laddical 2010-10-29 07:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Please double check the names of posters before you assume the words of one for the other. I was not the one who wrote that; all I did was respond to your question.
valtyr: (wear an eyepatch and smoke a cigar)

[personal profile] valtyr 2010-10-29 07:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, my apologies; I'd thought it was odd you made two top-level comments. In that case, limit my response to:

"As I said to [personal profile] halialkers below, it doesn't say that the Y chromosome has a monopoly on assholishness. It says that mainstream discussions on sexism tend to involve a lot of loud male assholes telling a lot of women what is and is not sexist. Which is true. Which has just happened."

halialkers: Cartoon of stick figure at computer with caption "Someone is wrong on the Internet," (A drama queen thou art)

[personal profile] halialkers 2010-10-29 07:37 pm (UTC)(link)
All generalizations are false.

You do realize this is, technically speaking, proving the point that the comic itself made? The comment in reference to it is rather inappropriate and in real life might well lead to drama llamas of a potentially very nasty sort.
jeyl: (Default)

[personal profile] jeyl 2010-10-29 07:35 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, all men in the hollywood system at least.
halialkers: Cartoon of stick figure at computer with caption "Someone is wrong on the Internet," (A drama queen thou art)

[personal profile] halialkers 2010-10-29 07:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Erm.....if someone says "I wanna fuck you because I like this comment" that's creepy no matter how you slice it.
liara_shadowsong: (Default)

[personal profile] liara_shadowsong 2010-10-29 07:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Motto.

[personal profile] falseaesop 2010-10-29 07:49 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree, saying something like that would be creepy as all hell. I have never said anything like that, but I have seen both men and women make statements like that, even here on this community.
halialkers: Man with wing-like clothes on plane-thing caption "I reject your reality and substitute my own," (I reject yours for mine is better)

[personal profile] halialkers 2010-10-29 07:52 pm (UTC)(link)
But you object to a comic that addresses what too often happens if someone objects to that kind of comment? One does not follow from the other.

[personal profile] falseaesop 2010-10-29 09:34 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't object to the premise rather the specific form their argument took.
thebigapricot: (Default)

[personal profile] thebigapricot 2010-10-29 09:45 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, I'll bite. What does that even mean?
valtyr: (fishing)

[personal profile] valtyr 2010-10-29 10:17 pm (UTC)(link)
Maybe they thought this was an MRI comm?
stubbleupdate: (Default)

[personal profile] stubbleupdate 2010-10-30 10:23 am (UTC)(link)
It's a tone argument, right? I claim my No Prize.
superfangirl1: (Default)

[personal profile] superfangirl1 2010-10-30 05:00 am (UTC)(link)
Actually had that happen to me and when I argue about it. They said it was my fault somehow by being in a semi all male forum.

Being a tease. :/ Which I guess being friendly and nice is flirting.
khamelea: (Default)

[personal profile] khamelea 2010-10-29 07:50 pm (UTC)(link)
I think that the title of the comic itself is a clear enough indication of the hyperbolic tone that it's intentionally adopting.
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)

[personal profile] fifthie 2010-10-29 08:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Panel 23 by the second comment, amazing.
gargoylekitty: (HA!)

[personal profile] gargoylekitty 2010-10-29 08:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Mte.
sallymustard: (Default)

[personal profile] sallymustard 2010-10-29 08:25 pm (UTC)(link)
LOL exactly.
kingrockwell: he's a sexy (Mod Hat)

[personal profile] kingrockwell 2010-10-29 08:23 pm (UTC)(link)
No. It is representing the men who are relevant to this particular example. Any other men are not relevant to the topic. Women are the marginalized group in our society, they are the ones against whom sexism is leveled, so they are the ones relevant in showing who sexism affects.

It should not be this comic's obligation to include a few men backing up the ladies' complaints to make the "not-sexist" men feel good about themselves. If the complaint leveled isn't about something you do, then don't make it about you.