benicio127: (whut)benicio127 ([personal profile] benicio127) wrote in [community profile] scans_daily,
@ 2010-11-03 04:25 pm UTC
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Entry tags:char: robin/red hood/jason todd, char: talia al ghul, creator: jeremy haun, creator: judd winick
AKA the final issue of this mini-series and the issue where I was like omgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomg

[personal profile] cuntfucius, [personal profile] levy and [personal profile] whitesycamore will be giddy about this.




Four pages.









Whoa! WHOA! WHOA!! Hotter than I expected. Ahem! He wakes up and she's gone. She leaves him with a note and another very important gift, which I was so, so, so glad to see in this.



Oh hey, look! Jason uses gmail. Mary Borsellino will be pleased to know about the dagger in this.
Here's her entry from evenrobins.net on Jason's dagger. Quoting from the entry:
Red Hood’s weapon of choice is a dagger with a waved blade. This edge design has been popular in numerous cultures throughout history, with a variety of connotations attached to the distinctive shape.

In simple, practical terms, a waved blade allows for a longer overall edge distance than would be present in a straight dagger of the same length. Waved blades in longer weapons, such as Flamberge swords, have the added advantage of causing the other weapon in a duel to vibrate, thereby making one’s opponent uncomfortable. This would not be true to any noticeable degree in a weapon such as Red Hood’s knife, however.

The origin of Red Hood’s knife within the Batman comics themselves is most likely the story “The Lazarus Pit!” from issue #243 in 1972. One of the original Ra’s Al Ghul stories by the O’Neil/Adams/Giordano team, this issue saw Batman forced to duel against a man who owed debts to both Ra’s and Batman. Both opponents weilded waved daggers.

As Judd Winick, the writer responsible for the entire Red Hood arc, utilised the Al Ghul family as a significant plot element, it seems likely that this classic storyline was one of the key inspirations behind Red Hood’s dagger.

Just as with the history of waved daggers in the real world, however, the element of pure aesthetic interest must be taken into account. Placing a waved dagger in a panel is more visually interesting and suggests a greater degree of ritual — whether the reader is aware of the legacy of the Keris blade or not — than a simple knife can.

Whatever the reasons may be, Red Hood’s dagger has developed iconography of its own, and now casts a shadow of specific meaning forward over any future appearances of such weapons in future Batman stories.



I'm so sad to see this mini-series end.


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jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Batgirl, Cassandra Cain)


[personal profile] jaybee3
2010-11-03 09:31 pm UTC (link)
Just to add to my previous thoughts (after I try to wash the images from my mind - unlike others I NEVER shipped this).

But, even knowing the slogan of Scans Daily, is it's "never just you". Am I the only one who has a problem with this? Who really DOESN'T like it? Not from Jason's POV (duh, he's a teenage male and she's a MUCH older hot chick offering herself to him) but from Talia's? The version of Talia that we had previous to this series never even looked at men other than her Beloved let alone had sex with him. Now in 6 issues we have Winick having the daughter of Ra's having casual sex with some minion and then has sex with the son of her "Beloved"? Would the Talia we saw in the 70s-90s, even up to Hush, do this? Heck, I don't think the EVIL Talia Morrison's been writing would do this - she still seems as hung up over Bruce as ever.

Remember the days when Talia used to be an actual rival to Selina as Bruce's top love interest with writers/readers? I guess that's gone now. Selina has slept with father/son before (the Bradleys) and was criticized for and derided for it ever since but she's never gone farther than kiss one of the Robins (to explicitly make Bruce jealous). This is a whole different kettle of fish.

Or am I the only who sees this? And everyone else is just LOVING this - oedipal/incestual (she is the mother of another of his sons) stuff?

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shewhohashope: close up of a sad female face (Comics: Talia)


[personal profile] shewhohashope
2010-11-03 09:39 pm UTC (link)
I liked random minion! And I don't think Talia's obsession with Bruce ever stopped her having non-romantic relationships with other men. 70's/80's Ra's refers to him as the only man to have ever engaged her emotions.

Of course, I love Talia and want nothing more than for her role to not be in competition as Bruce's number one love interest.

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benicio127: (whut)


[personal profile] benicio127
2010-11-03 11:53 pm UTC (link)
I also liked the "minion" guy, too!

And I'm just going to quote the fuckyeahtaliaalghul maintainer on this, because she says it much, much better than I could:


It was never ever stated that Talia had only ever had sex with Bruce! As much as this may freak out the kind of people who will turn to slut-shaming on the slightest provocation, just because someone, even a woman is obsessively in love with someone, it does not necessarily imply that she doesn’t have sex with unrelated third parties. Or sort-of-related third parties, as the case may be.
The most enraging thing? Saying that this ruins Talia character because it puts an end to her as a love interest for Bruce.

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shewhohashope: woman in dress holding a gun (Comics: Talia al Ghul)


[personal profile] shewhohashope
2010-11-04 12:00 am UTC (link)
He's great! And probably the healthiest relationship Talia has at the moment, all considered.

Outing myself somewhat, but my rage did not allow me time to proofread, so I just went to edit that. Nothing to shame you on lack of editing like being quoted.

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sistermagpie: Classic magpie (Me)


[personal profile] sistermagpie
2010-11-04 12:23 am UTC (link)
I don't think Talia having sex with other guys would ever be a reason she couldn't be Bruce's love interest, but I admit, if I were a guy I'd find everything she did in this comic a good reason to knock her out of the competition for my love interest!

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pepperspray101: Cass Cain is searching for an answer (cass cain)

I just hope Cass isn't next....


[personal profile] pepperspray101
2010-11-05 02:47 am UTC (link)
Ya know I don't think it ruins her character by putting an end to her being a love interest to Bruce (that ship sailed long ago! Forget Bruce, why's it always gotta be about him?) I think it just makes her like every other villainess of Eastern origin. Once again, writers are reinforcing the annoying stereotype of Exotic Sexy Evil lady of the Orient whose sexual activities/sexy image are the only thing to make her somewhat interesting/relevant in the story. This wasn't an issue for Tomasi or Fabian or other writers of the past. She was still an evil villainess you would rather not mess with. But as it is, all I can say now is...Here we go again.

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mad: I AM THE LIZARD QUEEN! (Default I am the Lizard QUEEN!)


[personal profile] mad
2010-11-04 04:43 am UTC (link)
Yeah, see, I also like the idea of Talia not constantly pining for Bruce.

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icon_uk: (Doug)


[personal profile] icon_uk
2010-11-03 09:55 pm UTC (link)
Whilst I generally agree that this is a very warped relationship to set up, I'm not sure I agree with the "Remember the days when Talia used to be an actual rival to Selina as Bruce's top love interest" comment.

Whilst I remember those stories, even as a youngun Talia struck me as pretty much a complete cypher in most of her appearances (and not the good sort of "cypher" as in adorable blond linguist).

Whilst it's easy to see what she saw in Bruce, there really was very little we ever found out about her which would remotely explain why Bruce would be attracted to her, especially her annoying habit of ALWAYS GOING BACK TO EVIL DADDY.

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shewhohashope: woman in dress holding a gun (Comics: Talia al Ghul)


[personal profile] shewhohashope
2010-11-03 10:09 pm UTC (link)
there really was very little we ever found out about her which would remotely explain why Bruce would be attracted to her

I never understand why people say this. Bruce is attracted to Talia because, in his own way, he's as fucked up as she is. He explicitly (several times!) mentions admiring her loyalty to her family! Where someone more stable would be more concerned about the abusiveness of that relationship as well as the unhealthy nature of her attachment to him.

I don't know where people are getting this idea of Bruce as an entirely independent, mentally stable guy with no weird parent issues, who would be horrified by Talia.

Last edited 2010-11-03 10:09 pm UTC

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cuntfucius: (my neck my back)


[personal profile] cuntfucius
2010-11-03 10:12 pm UTC (link)
I don't know where people are getting this idea of Bruce as an entirely independent, mentally stable guy with no weird parent issues, who would be horrified by Talia.

Lol, I know, right? Bruce romanticizes Talia in his mind (or USED to) just as much as she romanticized her. Bruce's entire schtick is wanting to help the helpless, but also respecting those that can look after themselves (because they relieve him of that duty). Talia manages to walk the line between both in an almost impossible way. Talia, as time has gone on, has become more and more mentally unstable, entrenched in her Father's ways, and Bruce has seen her as more "hopeless." There was a time where it was different, though.

Bruce is incredibly codependent.

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(no subject) - [personal profile] cuntfucius, 2010-11-03 10:12 pm UTC (Expand)
icon_uk: (Sonny Strait Nightwing)


[personal profile] icon_uk
2010-11-03 10:39 pm UTC (link)
Because, in the time period you're talking about, when Selina and Talia vied for Bruce's affections, he WAS pretty much an entirely independent, mentally stable guy with no weird parent issues. Yes he was Batman, but he was Bruce Wayne too, who ran the Wayne Foundation, had raised Dick Grayson to college age, dated regularly, had been known to smile unprovoked, crack the odd joke with Superman, and was generally a much more personable, and stable entity than his post-Crisis/Year One self.

And loyalty too one's family ceases to be THAT admirable when the family consists of a genocidal immortal who has cooked up plans for world domination.

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mad: (Batman)


[personal profile] mad
2010-11-04 04:57 am UTC (link)
Someone once put it to me that for Bruce, having someone suddenly offer him all this love and affection (and having that someone be attractive and intelligent) is pretty powerful. He's not someone who lets his emotional guard down easily, not someone who finds it easy to be close and intimate with someone, so to have someone know who/what he is as Batman and still want to love him? I can see him reaching out to her romantically/sexually, even if it is short-lived due to their obvious moral and ideological differences.

Of course, there's also the theory that Bruce is only ever attracted to women who he would not actually be able to sustain a long-term relationship with. So, there's that, too.

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cuntfucius: (my neck my back)


[personal profile] cuntfucius
2010-11-03 09:55 pm UTC (link)
No, a lot of people don't like it! You're definitely not alone. This is going to be WAY more hated than loved.

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aeolos_sakya: Aeolos Sakya (Aeolos Sakya)


[personal profile] aeolos_sakya
2010-11-04 02:02 am UTC (link)
I'll admit that, when I read the scans, my first thought was "That's just wrong, dude!!"
I like the whole story, but I'm not sure what to think about the Jason/Talia sex scene.
So, remember, i'ts never just you ;)

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pepperspray101: Cass Cain is searching for an answer (cass cain, searching)


[personal profile] pepperspray101
2010-11-04 02:35 am UTC (link)
(after I try to wash the images from my mind - unlike others I NEVER shipped this).

YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONE.

*BANGS HEAD AGAINST THE WALL while cursing up a storm* GODDAMNIT WINICK!! YOU ARE SUCH A FUCKING...@#&%#$@!!!!

and yes, god, YES. Talia to me, just always seemed like a lady who once she set her eyes on a man she thought worthy, wouldn't BOTHER WITH ANYONE ELSE, I mean..wtf? minions? really? a lady of her prestige, rejecting rich or strong suitors...and she takes on a no-name minion. WTF.

Talk about A STEP DOWN!

And now JASON? AAUGH, its worse because she saved him as a YOUNG teen! She was motherly at one point. and now...UGGGH, THAT'S NASTY. I'm sorry, guys, but FUCK THAT SHIT. FUCK IT!!,

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schmevil: (modly mouse)

Mod note


[personal profile] schmevil
2010-11-04 03:52 am UTC (link)
Getting awfully close to a personal attack on Winick there.

Also, you're absolutely welcome to hate this turn of events, but please don't stray into slut-shaming.

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pepperspray101: Re-L's eye that says "Look Again" (Look Again)

Re: Mod note


[personal profile] pepperspray101
2010-11-04 07:38 am UTC (link)
lol, yeah I only had enough sense to cover up my cursing with symbols. Sorry about that.

But I'm actually offended at the thought of slut-shaming. As I pointed up above and elsewhere, this is more of a OOC gripe I have. It's not that she's having sex with other guys that bothers me, its the KIND Of guys she's having sex with, and mostly because I do believe it contradicts previous characterization. If it were Selina, I wouldn't be surprised and wouldn't care but since its Talia who in the past has been depicted as super picky about who she chooses to even interact with...ugh, the whole thing just seems forced & gratuitous just for the sake of showing someone having SEX. Who better to do it, than the sexy, exotic female of the Orient!

Ugh...

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whitesycamore: (pic#913785)


[personal profile] whitesycamore
2010-11-04 08:15 am UTC (link)
I'm not sure how being rich or powerful relates to a man's suitability for a casual sexual relationship. Jason you have a point about. But the minion? That is absolutely fine, and clearly shows Talia getting what she wants, not cooing and writhing around on panel for the benefit of the reader - so I find it much less offensive and exoticised than some of her interactions with Bruce.

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pepperspray101: Seiji Date reading a book (reading)


[personal profile] pepperspray101
2010-11-05 02:56 am UTC (link)
Good point on the casual sex, though, again, my earliest impressions of Talia was that she was damn picky about her men in general. Then again, we have little to no precedents to go by to say what she would and would not want.

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nonners: (dagger)


[personal profile] nonners
2010-11-04 01:15 pm UTC (link)
Am I the only one who remembers that Talia slept with Bane?

'Cause she did.

It was pretty hot, I guess.

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pepperspray101: Cass Cain is searching for an answer (cass cain, searching)


[personal profile] pepperspray101
2010-11-05 02:57 am UTC (link)
Didn't it turn rapey?

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nonners: (dagger)


[personal profile] nonners
2010-11-05 03:00 am UTC (link)
It got weird, but not rapey. The actual sex part was consensual, as far as I could tell.

Her dad was going to make her marry him, which could have gone in a bad way, but the context I got was that they only slept together once, and it was consensual. The proposed marriage, however, was not.

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(no subject) - [personal profile] pepperspray101, 2010-11-05 03:29 am UTC (Expand)

Awesome Slut-Shaming!


[personal profile] shenanigan
2010-11-04 08:12 pm UTC (link)
The version of Talia that we had previous to this series never even looked at men other than her Beloved let alone had sex with him.

How DARE She!

Jesus fucking christ. The woman's vagina does not belong to Bruce Wayne. If she wants to fuck her way across every damn man in the DCU, it is her right. Arguing otherwise makes you a misogynistic douchebag engaging in slut-shaming.

Argue that the father-son triangle is creepy all you want. BUt you can do it without moaning about Talia's awful casual sex. JFC.

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benicio127: (Lois love)

Re: Awesome Slut-Shaming!


[personal profile] benicio127
2010-11-04 08:35 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for this comment!!

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jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Batgirl, Cassandra Cain)

Re: Awesome Slut-Shaming!


[personal profile] jaybee3
2010-11-04 08:43 pm UTC (link)
OK. Taking away all sexual partners not related to her "Beloved" (which is fine if she going to be written that way consistently going forward and not just this one writer).

But can we argue that the father-son triangle is creepy and that she abused her position of trust with someone who she's known since he was a child and who has been badly brain damaged (among other things) and who she herself has pushed to vengeance for years? Because I have seen some commentators (not you) take the position that there is NOTHING wrong with this to the point where even the extra squick-factor makes it appealing (and it's all cool and hot because Jason is drawn as a very adult male the same age as Dick Grayson even though he's not and is barely older than Tim). Which I don't get. At all.

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Re: Awesome Slut-Shaming! - [personal profile] levyrasputin, 2010-11-06 10:19 am UTC (Expand)
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