benicio127: (whut)benicio127 ([personal profile] benicio127) wrote in [community profile] scans_daily,
@ 2010-11-03 04:25 pm UTC
Entry tags:char: robin/red hood/jason todd, char: talia al ghul, creator: jeremy haun, creator: judd winick
AKA the final issue of this mini-series and the issue where I was like omgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomg

[personal profile] cuntfucius, [personal profile] levy and [personal profile] whitesycamore will be giddy about this.




Four pages.









Whoa! WHOA! WHOA!! Hotter than I expected. Ahem! He wakes up and she's gone. She leaves him with a note and another very important gift, which I was so, so, so glad to see in this.



Oh hey, look! Jason uses gmail. Mary Borsellino will be pleased to know about the dagger in this.
Here's her entry from evenrobins.net on Jason's dagger. Quoting from the entry:
Red Hood’s weapon of choice is a dagger with a waved blade. This edge design has been popular in numerous cultures throughout history, with a variety of connotations attached to the distinctive shape.

In simple, practical terms, a waved blade allows for a longer overall edge distance than would be present in a straight dagger of the same length. Waved blades in longer weapons, such as Flamberge swords, have the added advantage of causing the other weapon in a duel to vibrate, thereby making one’s opponent uncomfortable. This would not be true to any noticeable degree in a weapon such as Red Hood’s knife, however.

The origin of Red Hood’s knife within the Batman comics themselves is most likely the story “The Lazarus Pit!” from issue #243 in 1972. One of the original Ra’s Al Ghul stories by the O’Neil/Adams/Giordano team, this issue saw Batman forced to duel against a man who owed debts to both Ra’s and Batman. Both opponents weilded waved daggers.

As Judd Winick, the writer responsible for the entire Red Hood arc, utilised the Al Ghul family as a significant plot element, it seems likely that this classic storyline was one of the key inspirations behind Red Hood’s dagger.

Just as with the history of waved daggers in the real world, however, the element of pure aesthetic interest must be taken into account. Placing a waved dagger in a panel is more visually interesting and suggests a greater degree of ritual — whether the reader is aware of the legacy of the Keris blade or not — than a simple knife can.

Whatever the reasons may be, Red Hood’s dagger has developed iconography of its own, and now casts a shadow of specific meaning forward over any future appearances of such weapons in future Batman stories.



I'm so sad to see this mini-series end.


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cuntfucius: (Sailor Wonder Girl says!)


[personal profile] cuntfucius
2010-11-03 09:47 pm UTC (link)
I honestly don't think Jason or Talia are mentally stable at this point in their relationship, which I think makes this more sad than hot. I really enjoy the relationship between these two, but I do feel that Winick just... tacked on this hook-up in a way that I personally didn't find very believable. Seemed like something that would appear on a CW show. I understood Jason's motivation for it completely -- hot, loving woman figure comes on to him, he's up for it. But I'm not convinced of Talia's doing here. Seems more like she was being pushed hard by Winick's hand to do this rather than convincing the reader that she has the genuine hots for Jason in that way.

Talia has been taught to use sex as a weapon, yes, but she's being written in a slightly exotified way. I've got mixed feelings on this one, and unlike most people in here, it has nothing to do with the age difference or his role as Bruce's adopted son.

That being said, I still love the dynamic, am not squicked, but am instead just pretty convinced the unfortunate awkwardness of this scene is the lack of clarity for both characters, who seem to transform into a different person under every new writer.

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shewhohashope: woman in pink holding an injured boy. (Comics: Talia and Jason)


[personal profile] shewhohashope
2010-11-03 09:52 pm UTC (link)
I agree with you on this one. There would be a way to get it to be really believably (and not offensively) done, just by putting a little more focus on Talia, but unfortunately, this is Jason's story, and we are never going to get one that is solely Talia's because that's not how comics work. With regard to Jason, his epic mother issues made this almost inevitable.

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cuntfucius: (Jen and Hank)


[personal profile] cuntfucius
2010-11-03 10:00 pm UTC (link)
It's very believable on Jason's side to me, but yeah, Talia is what I'm having the issue with. And it's not like I could not conceive of a hook-up between these two at all in any believable way -- I could. Just not in the teen drama way it was just presented (god, I hate awkward "look at each other and then just randomly kiss" panels, idkwhy). We really DON'T get into Talia's mind here, so it seems like she just "gave" Jason some sex as a "gift." Which, yeahhhh, Talia's got messed up views on sex, I could see her doing this for Jason and not herself, but that doesn't make it any less sad or messed up or annoying to me (annoyed on her behalf, of course).

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mona: talia al ghul, sittin' pretty in a hood and some nice bronze age art. (talia)


[personal profile] mona
2010-11-04 06:05 am UTC (link)
god, I hate awkward "look at each other and then just randomly kiss" panels, idkwhy

unspeakable unstoppable pheromonal passion! blooming from out of nowhere and leading wordlessly into totally smooth and sexy sex! compulsory heteronormativity yay. <== I always hate them too, basically, especially when they lead straight into sex scenes like this one did.

anyway I agree with everything both of you are saying :|

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whitesycamore: (pic#913785)


[personal profile] whitesycamore
2010-11-03 09:56 pm UTC (link)
"I understood Jason's motivation for it completely -- hot, loving woman figure comes on to him, he's up for it."

Eh, that's feels like a rather stereotypical view of male sexuality. I could just as easily say that Talia's motivation here is obvious, if I were to make a generalisation about other women's sexuality based on my own experiences. I mean, from my perspective I need more convincing about why Jason would want to have sex with Talia than the other way round.

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cuntfucius: (my neck my back)


[personal profile] cuntfucius
2010-11-03 10:03 pm UTC (link)
It is THE only beautiful, loving woman figure in his life -- after severe trauma and damage, she brought him back, nursed him, and gave him the tools to help feed his trauma (in a way where both Talia and Jason thought it was HELPING it). She pulls him in and kisses him. I think Jason was at a vulnerable enough point in his life that the combined attraction and attachment to Talia, and her obvious care for him and the fact that she was PROUD of him and focused on him in a way that he felt Bruce wasn't (especially after seeing Tim replace him) makes this easy to believe on his side. It doesn't mean he wouldn't have felt conflicted for it, but I could see him going for it when it's presented to him and he's not thinking too hard about it, and instead acting on his attachment and kind of desperation.

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whitesycamore: (pic#913785)


[personal profile] whitesycamore
2010-11-03 10:16 pm UTC (link)
I completely understand why he cares for her, I just thought that his parental issues and her rather maternal behaviour towards him might have made being sexual with her too weird.

Jason is also an important figure for Talia though. In a way he symbolised her hope and her love for Bruce while she was nurturing him. He was her pet project, both because she thought it would make Bruce love her and also because he was something that *belonged* to Bruce. He was important to her because Bruce loved him, and in that way her affection for Jason became a sort of extension of her feelings for Bruce.

Now that her father is dead and she feels betrayed by Bruce, Jason is one of the only people that she cares for and who obviously loves her back. I absolutely get why she would feel attracted to him under those circumstances.

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cuntfucius: (my neck my back)


[personal profile] cuntfucius
2010-11-03 10:19 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I can see Talia's attraction to Jason (just like I can see Donna's :DDDDD wtf mother figures). It's more about her motivations here, insinuating that it's to "get back" at Bruce -- I feel like this was written in between revenge-sex under the guise of being about Bruce but it was actually about her and her needs, deep down, her trauma and his trauma, and their loneliness and rejection from the man they love the most.

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whitesycamore: (pic#913785)


[personal profile] whitesycamore
2010-11-03 10:25 pm UTC (link)
You think?!

Oh, if sex with Jason is supposed to be motivated by revenge then that is completely horrible. Nothing bugs me more than the meme that women ALWAYS have an ulterior motive behind any sudden sexual impulses. If the line about punishing Bruce is supposed to relate to the sexing at all, then I prefer to think it was just an ill thought-out pick up line rather than a genuine expression of her motives.

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cuntfucius: (my neck my back)


[personal profile] cuntfucius
2010-11-03 10:27 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I like to think it was Talia TELLING herself that, too. Both might not be entirely too comfortable with their attraction to one another, and it's not like this is being portrayed as healthy and wonderful. Just more like... I don't know, a very human and vulnerable moment.

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thebigapricot: (Jeanette)


[personal profile] thebigapricot
2010-11-04 12:36 am UTC (link)
It's almost as if they are sealing a pact in their love/hate relationship with Bruce. These two people who have both loved Bruce and now feel rejected by him. I agree I'd like to get more into Talia's head to see what she's thinking but for Jason this is his final step into becoming what Talia said "someone who will do what Batman won't do". If he's going to take on the role of the anti-Batman it is easy for him to take another step over the line and sleep with a woman perceived as being "Batman's".

And I just laugh at the dopes on the comic boards outraged with him fucking Talia because he's "a boy barely of age". They have a problem with that but not him killing a bunch of people?

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benicio127: (whut)


[personal profile] benicio127
2010-11-04 01:07 am UTC (link)
If he's going to take on the role of the anti-Batman it is easy for him to take another step over the line and sleep with a woman perceived as being "Batman's".

Exactly! And she repeatedly says: "cross the line" -- it's a great analogy.

Oh, their misogyny got out of hand. I complained to the mods there about the fact that at least three people -- two of them women -- complained about the use of the term "ho" and then the mods deleted all of our comments. I don't like going to CBR at all, but I feel like it's one way to get a voice across as a fan of Jason. (And since, as Gail Simone put it, most of the industry reviles S_D)

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benicio127: (whut)


[personal profile] benicio127
2010-11-03 11:58 pm UTC (link)
I completely understand why he cares for her, I just thought that his parental issues and her rather maternal behaviour towards him might have made being sexual with her too weird.

Jason is all about the mommy issues! This really brings the messed up Oedipal Complex right around full circle.

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levyrasputin: (gar-pleeease)


[personal profile] levyrasputin
2010-11-04 09:23 am UTC (link)
yees I absolutely buy Jason's mind going to the guts immediately, I'd probably reacting the same as him given the same situation - emotional instability + loneliness + affection toward her + pure hormonal drive - and I'm not by any mean squicked by that.

It's just Talia that sounds too... uhm.. calculating? no it's not the right word but whatever, she looks like she has planned on this to happen and I don't get why.

I could see it coming from miles and while I love the idea and I'm okay with the characterization Talia has been given so far (though I liked it better in the first issues), the execution let me down a bit for the lack of raw emotion from Talia's side.

I actually don't know how to feel about this!

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sistermagpie: Classic magpie (Me)


[personal profile] sistermagpie
2010-11-03 10:04 pm UTC (link)
He does have a thing about mother figures. One could make a case for this type of thing feeling like a betrayal or feeling like sexual abuse. Not saying that's how he's experiencing it, but somebody could write it that way. Particularly with those weird, dark hints in BftC about something nasty that potentially happened to Jason in the woodshed.

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whitesycamore: (pic#913785)

Re:


[personal profile] whitesycamore
2010-11-03 10:31 pm UTC (link)
The same thought occurred to me, but he seems so comfortable with her in the scans above that I think it's safe to say he experienced it at as a positive thing. Perhaps we're overestimating the degree to which he sees Talia as a mother figure anyway - she definitely seemed to relate to him more as a friend and mentor than a parent after he was healed by the Lazarus pit.

I actually really like how they are drawn lying side by side in their embrace, exactly equal and neither higher or more on top than the other. I think that's supposed to suggest a mutuality and equivalence between them.

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ktnb: a snow covered bridge and tree (non-fandom: winter time)

Re:


[personal profile] ktnb
2010-11-03 11:29 pm UTC (link)
Particularly with those weird, dark hints in BftC about something nasty that potentially happened to Jason in the woodshed.

I don't remember what this is referencing, and I feel strangely bad about that. Do you remember whereabouts in the story this was?

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sistermagpie: Classic magpie (Me)

Re:


[personal profile] sistermagpie
2010-11-03 11:37 pm UTC (link)
It's, iirc, in the scene where Dick plays Jason Bruce's message from beyond the grave. Jason had already heard it, but Dick plays it for him to basically say he wants to help Jason. In it Bruce makes some references to things that happened to Jason that sounded a lot like sexual abuse. It doesn't have to be, because it was intentionally vague, but it seemed like Bruce was saying Jason had been damaged by some specific bad trauma before he was Robin.

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ktnb: a snow covered bridge and tree (non-fandom: winter time)

Re:


[personal profile] ktnb
2010-11-03 11:42 pm UTC (link)
You know, I hadn't read it like that before, but looking at it again now, I totally see where you're coming from. Oh Jason.

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