scans_daily: Tim's first visit to Hong Kong

whitesycamore (

scans_daily,
@ 2010-11-09 07:49 pm UTC

Entry tags:

char: edmund dorrance/king snake, char: lady shiva/sandra woosan, char: lynx/ling, char: robin/red robin/tim drake, creator: bob smith, creator: chuck dixon, creator: tom lyle, title: robin

Tim's first visit to Hong Kong - pt. 3

In part 3 of 4 Tim finally arrives in Hong Kong, gets some vague sexual promise/threat from Shiva, and is terribly disappointed with Clyde (parts 1 and 2 here).

Tim, Shiva, and Clyde track the plane carrying the deadly cargo to a field in Hong Kong.

Looks like Tim's been over ruled! I like how "Shiva's a homicidal maniac" counts as an excuse in Tim's book (yes, I get that he really just means that he expects more from Clyde).

Meanwhile, Dorrance expresses his displeasure with Lynx. She promised to make Robin very dead, but she failed.

We'll find out what Lynx's punishment is later. It's not very gentlemanly though, I'll tell you that much.

On this page Tim makes an embarrassing misunderstanding, and looks crazy weird in the bottom panel.

How much later, I wonder? Five years later might be good - just in time to save Tim from the ninja Ra's has sent to deflower him.

Actually I think you'll find that many white people, Christians, and white Christians have proved very keen on killing, Shiva.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to include any pictures of Shiva's training due to the page limit. She teaches Tim to control his emotions and fight with more finesse - that's it, basically.

That's right; Dorrance plans to unleash the bubonic plague on the city he purports to love - all because he's butt-hurt over the transfer of sovereignty. He explains how his plan is supposed to work:

A plague-filled water clock. My god.

In part 4 we'll see all three of our protagonists fight for what they want; Tim to save the city, Clyde for revenge, and Shiva for supremacy.

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	no subject lonewolf23k 2010-11-09 08:22 pm UTC (link)
	"Actually I think you'll find that many white people, Christians, and white Christians have proved very keen on killing, Shiva." Not to mention a reverence for life is also a very big part of the Asian faith of Buddhism. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 10 comments) (Show 10 comments)

	no subject warpedhand 2010-11-09 09:09 pm UTC (link)
	To be fair, Shiva more than likely knows that Robin is there for training, and knows the Robin is Batman's sidekick. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 3 comments) (Show 3 comments)

	no subject whitesycamore 2010-11-09 09:14 pm UTC (link)
	Oh, she know all right. So really she should be saying "how very Batman of you". (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

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icon_uk
2010-11-09 11:06 pm UTC (link)

She hardly knows Batman though, they've only met once, during the "Death in the Family" arc, during which Batman drugged her with truth serum and forced her to admit whether she was Jason's mother or not. She has little respect for Batman at this point, aside from wasting what skills he has with non lethal combat.

"Very white of you" is an old saying from colonial times, when some white folk said it intending it as a genuine (if grotesquely condescending) compliment to non-whites. Since then it's become a cliche ridiculing assumed superiority because of ethnicity.

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	no subject nezchan 2010-11-10 12:06 am UTC (link)
	My father uses it as an ironic joke. Similar to his use of "Clever, these Chinese". (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject psychopathicus_rex 2010-11-10 05:13 am UTC (link)
	I kind of got a flashback to 'The Mask of Fu Manchu', with Karloff as the villain, where he gloats to one of the captured protagonists that he will send him to his 'cold, Christian paradise'. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 4 comments) (Show 4 comments)

	no subject icon_uk 2010-11-10 08:16 am UTC (link)
	One of my favourite movie quotes ever Sir Lionel Barton: "You're Fu Manchu, aren't you?" Fu Manchu: "I am a doctor of philosophy from Edinburgh, I am a doctor of law from Christ College, I am a doctor of medicine from Harvard. My friends, out of courtesy, call me doctor." (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 3 comments) (Show 3 comments)

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psychopathicus_rex
2010-11-10 01:58 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, that's a good one. It's kind of a shame that the movie is so obscure these days, because it really is pretty good. It's understandable, of course - it's very, VERY racist in a particularly tone-deaf, colonialist sort of way that even the original source material rarely approached - but still a pity, because it would likely be hailed as a minor masterpiece otherwise. One online review of it I read made an interesting point regarding the above quote - Fu Manchu is obviously a genius to have gotten all those degrees, but he got them all at WESTERN universities, implying, basically, that it's our 'superior knowledge' that allowed the lowly Chinaman to succeed in life. It's subtle, but it's there. (Anyway, it's a great quote regardless.)

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icon_uk
2010-11-10 08:58 pm UTC (link)

Interesting, though I don't get that from the line, even if I can sort of see it as a reading. The implication to me is that he's almost dismissive of the Western education and it was absurdly easy for him (Note that most of his plans involve Orient-based flora, fauna and the like) The only thing he got out of them was familiarity with the Western world and the title "Doctor".

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psychopathicus_rex
2010-11-10 11:01 pm UTC (link)

I suppose that's also plausible - sort of like those high-ranking members of Al Qaida (however you spell that) who went to college in America and came back loathing the West more than ever. What I generally get out of Fu Manchu, however much he occasionally rants and raves about 'the accursed white race' (and he does it a LOT in that movie), is that it is he himself who is dangerous; he's not a reflection of a dangerous thing, he IS the dangerous thing. Sure, he may cloak himself in Asian-flavored menace, he may have legions of Dacoits at his command, but that's all circumstance - he's no more an 'Asian' villain than he is any other kind of villain; it's simply his background, not what he IS. What he IS is danger, pure and simple. That's what makes him a great villain, to my way of thinking - it's almost impossible to underestimate him, and you never doubt that, however final the fate that you appear to send him to, the world will indeed hear from him again.

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	no subject remial 2010-11-10 12:31 pm UTC (link)
	you mean the central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself"? :D (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject pyrotwilight 2010-11-09 09:46 pm UTC (link)
	Tim: Oh. I giggled far too hard. XD (Reply to this)

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benicio127
2010-11-09 10:22 pm UTC (link)

"How Christian of you. How white of you."

Oh Chuck Dixon. Aren't the majority of serial killers white men?

Back to Tim, you know the more I think about it, the more I think him coming out could be done pretty organically. I know you and I had talked about how his current comments re: women (the female gang leader, frex) in Red Robin seemed a bit forced into a heteronormative box, but does anyone else feel this way?
I'm sure there's a reason why the scans you've posted made me think of this...

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airawyn
2010-11-09 10:34 pm UTC (link)

I felt like those bits were forced, too, but it could just be my slash goggles. I really feel that Tim is gay and I'd love it if they made it official. I mean, I don't expect him to actually hook up with Kon or any of the other popular 'ships, but I think he could come out very naturally. Steph even made a comment back before War Games that she had to initiate all physical stuff with them.

Which could also be that he's asexual or simply reserved, of course. But I think it'd make an interesting editorial choice to let him come out. Sure, there'd be "Batman and Robin" gay jokes in the media, but those have been around for decades. It'd give him a different role in the books (in a meta sense; I doubt coming out would change Tim very much) than just mini-Bruce or Nightwing 2.0.

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	no subject benicio127 2010-11-09 10:43 pm UTC (link)
	It'd give him a different role in the books (in a meta sense; I doubt coming out would change Tim very much) than just mini-Bruce or Nightwing 2.0. Well, he's already a great role model, but he'd also be one of the most prominent male gay characters DC has if it happened. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

	no subject airawyn 2010-11-09 10:54 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, exactly. At a time when people are starting to pay attention to the difficulties gay teens face, DC would have a gay teen for a role model who's one of the most respected kids in the superhero community. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject benicio127 2010-11-10 03:53 am UTC (link)
	Oh soooo much agreed. Great point. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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bradhanon
2010-11-10 12:35 am UTC (link)

Personally, and this is not to argue with your reading, I've long gotten a bit more of a bi vibe off of Tim than full-on Kinsey 6. He strikes me as one of those guys who lives so much in his head that, if he really feels a connection to someone, their physical sex is a secondary consideration at best. Just my take, of course... though come to think of it, there is rather a dearth of canonically bi superheroes, isn't there?

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	no subject icon_uk 2010-11-10 12:52 am UTC (link)
	Grace of the Outsiders and... err... ummm... (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject airawyn 2010-11-10 02:46 am UTC (link)
	I could buy him as bi. I agree that he's more about the personal connection than the physical. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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benicio127
2010-11-10 03:52 am UTC (link)

Though! I guess I'm also thinking of those who had hetero experiences because they were in denial/that was expected of them/etc.

But, yeah if you read bi, I can get on board for that!
And there's Daken and Mystique, but they aren't considered heroes as much as villains. And HQ and Ivy, both bi for sure. But again, villains.
Devin Grayson said she always considered Dick Grayson to be bisexual, with a higher orientation towards women.

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	no subject icon_uk 2010-11-10 08:17 am UTC (link)
	Yes, but she also said that he has a "Fight or fuck" reaction to any physical contact, so I take a rather dim view of her pronouncements. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject liara_shadowsong 2010-11-11 02:26 am UTC (link)
	Even if Devin Grayson's suggestions are... erm... coughs discreetly I still think Dick is bi - with a high affinity for redheads. You know, Babs, Kory, Roy... (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject liara_shadowsong 2010-11-11 02:24 am UTC (link)
	Hm... I've always gotten a vibe of Tim being about a 5 on the Kinsey scale, maybe a 4... more likely to be attracted to men, but with at least some possibility of being attracted to a woman, even if perhaps unlikely. Regardless, I have a near impossible time as picturing him as straight as opposed to bi, gay, or asexual. shrugs (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject icon_uk 2010-11-09 11:07 pm UTC (link)
	"How Christian of you. How white of you." Oh Chuck Dixon. Aren't the majority of serial killers white men? See reply to whitesycamore above, it's not meant literally. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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whitesycamore
2010-11-10 10:03 am UTC (link)

Oh, Tim being gay is completely credible, no doubt (of course I think a 13 year old boy of any orientation would be freaked out and reluctant if he woke up to find Shiva on his bed. That woman is objectively scary).

But I totally agree that "dibs on the sexy gang leader who probably has a crush on me" is not a very Tim-like way of expressing his sexuality. And then the thought box with "even sweaty and furious, Lynx is still gorgeous", or whatever it was... You know I love Nicieza, but that sounds like something Dick or even Bruce would think. Not Tim. Not during a fight. Boy's mind just doesn't work that way.

And for some reason those kind of comments from Tim weird me out. Particularly with the way he had her wrists all bound up at the time, and with the close-up of her angry struggling, and Tim thinking about how he planned to "humiliate" her. OOC and just skeevy somehow. Seriously, if Tim must have a kink, surely it should be voyeurism!

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	no subject benicio127 2010-11-10 01:50 pm UTC (link)
	Seriously, if Tim must have a kink, surely it should be voyeurism! Hahaha omg yes. It's another thing he and Babs have in common! (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject liara_shadowsong 2010-11-11 02:27 am UTC (link)
	Seriously, if Tim must have a kink, surely it should be voyeurism! Hahahahahaha... yes, agreed. That one, I can see. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject psychopathicus_rex 2010-11-10 05:15 am UTC (link)
	I kinda dig Dorrance's 'gentlemanly sadist' vibe here. HE'S too much of a gentleman to harm a lady, but that doesn't stop him from handing her off to his sidekick. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 6 comments) (Show 6 comments)

	no subject icon_uk 2010-11-10 12:48 pm UTC (link)
	Thing is, he's not remotely a gentleman, and the vibe I get here is much more "You're not worth MY attention, so someone else will do something violent to you, because I wield that kind of power and authority, and you don't." (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 5 comments) (Show 5 comments)

	no subject psychopathicus_rex 2010-11-10 02:00 pm UTC (link)
	Well, yes, but he obviously THINKS of himself as a gentleman, and tries to behave like his version of a gentleman would. It wouldn't be the first time that 'gentleman' was misinterpreted to mean 'complete bastard with a superiority complex'. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 4 comments) (Show 4 comments)

	no subject whitesycamore 2010-11-10 02:07 pm UTC (link)
	It wouldn't be the first time that 'gentleman' was misinterpreted to mean 'complete bastard with a superiority complex'. This deserves to be a cross stitch homily. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject psychopathicus_rex 2010-11-10 02:27 pm UTC (link)
	It WOULD look lovely up on the parlor wall, wouldn't it? (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject icon_uk 2010-11-10 07:17 pm UTC (link)
	Well, he's a Peer of the Realm, which is no guarantee of anything of course... (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject psychopathicus_rex 2010-11-10 10:39 pm UTC (link)
	In HIS mind, it clearly guarantees quite a lot. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	no subject wonderwomanhero 2010-11-10 08:37 am UTC (link)
	NO LYNX!!!!!!!!!!!!! Elle Driver of China. Lol. (Reply to this) (Thread) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

	no subject whitesycamore 2010-11-10 10:31 am UTC (link)
	I find Lynx's punishment really grim and disturbing. I just feel that Dixon intended it to be an "ironic" comeuppance for Lynx being so self-assured about her own sex-appeal or something. Gross. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject wonderwomanhero 2010-11-15 02:00 am UTC (link)
	Yeah...but having people get their eyes ripped out...not by their own will...disturbs me... (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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