scans_daily: Some panels from Amazing Spider-Man #650

cyberghostface (

scans_daily,
@ 2010-12-17 11:47 pm UTC

Entry tags:

char: black cat/felicia hardy, char: carlie cooper, char: mary jane watson, char: spider-man/peter parker, creator: dan slott, creator: humberto ramos, title: amazing spider-man

Some panels from Amazing Spider-Man #650

I might be posting more later, but until then, here are two panels from the latest issue of ASM.

I'll just let the fail speak for itself here.

(To clarify, the exchange is from MJ's POV. It's to show stupid she is in comparison to Carlie, who "gets" Peter)

If you wanted an additional slice of Spidey!fail...

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hawkmoondirge
2010-12-18 05:17 am UTC (link)

This....this makes me sick.

I thoufght, THOUGHT, this would be an amazing step in Spider-man's new direction. Hobgoblins back, Gargan isgetting pimped into a super scorpion, and I actually like the art.

But no, I get crap like this from Slott of all people, and I loved his Mighty Avengers work. This is disappointing.

As for the whole Carlie thing, my two cents. She has no character. Literally. She is a mary sue, in it's worse form. she's there, perfect and better than mj....but we don't know why. It's poor styory and instead of branching her out with flaws and emotion we get (Insert critic's rantings here) from this (Explicit)

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sherkahn
2010-12-18 05:23 am UTC (link)

I skipped over the Carlie stuff. It takes some practice, but if you learn to focus your mind you will see that she is just an empty place holder. AS i read these pages every character has a "voice" I can picture in my head. Except her... nothing that resonates as a person.

Hobgolblin's flying camera had more character with one ping and one page.

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hawkmoondirge
2010-12-18 05:26 am UTC (link)

Well it is Phil Urich, who wasn't all that bad (loved him in Spider-girl) Hopefully Robert Kingsly is still on the table.

And to clarify, yes this is from Mj's view point, but it doesn't help to over emphasize this crap. Is she smart, yes but not a genius like Peter. We ALL know this.

BTW the Black Cat thing, not really fail. Actually, I happen to like Black Cat's apperances. Perhaps they (Felicia and Pete) are beuing set up for each other or some bullocks.

Argh, I want my Gargan arc!

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	no subject thanekos 2010-12-18 05:34 am UTC (link)
	Won't be too long, if you didn't know. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 2 comments) (Show 2 comments)

	no subject hawkmoondirge 2010-12-18 05:43 am UTC (link)
	Ugh knowing that, Gargan will be seen as an idiot who eats people still.... (It was the suit, The suit eats people, not gargan) (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

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badficwriter, 2010-12-18 07:57 am UTC (Expand)

Mary Sue.

nefrekeptah
2010-12-18 05:39 am UTC (link)

Okay, this is getting annoying.

Carlie is a new character. She has been established as a new love interest for Peter. She doesn't have much else established, mostly because she is still new, although it has been established that she is smart, is still new to the relationship and is still a little awkward around Peter, and is often called away for work.

She is not perfect. Nobody has said that she's "better" then Mary Jane. The story has not warped to revolve around her character (she barely even appeared in the last two issues), Peter has not declared her "The One for him" and he certainly hasn't forgotten about MJ because of her.

It seems to me that the Mary Sue accusations are less about anything Carlie has actually done, and more about the fact that she's a love interest for Peter who's not Mary Jane.

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Re: Mary Sue.

cyberghostface
2010-12-18 05:45 am UTC (link)

Oh please.

Marvel has gone out of their way to tell the reader how great Carlie is. She appeared on the cover of "Spidey's Greatest Loves" before she even started dating Peter, and her story had her solving a murder when she was a little girl.

The characters go out of their way to go "Wow, Carlie's so great!" Mary Jane goes "Wow, Peter's finally found out how to pick 'em!" Peter goes "Wow, someone finally gets me! When I make a joke about Pavlov's dog, she laughs! I wish I knew her in high school!" Hell, even when Aunt May was possessed by Mr. Negative, she still thought the two should date. I could go on but I'm sure someone else will come up with more examples.

And then there's the fact that she's named after the daughter of the architect of the new status quo.

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Re: Mary Sue.

cyberghostface
2010-12-18 05:47 am UTC (link)

Just found this post from our own stillanerd on cbr:

How is Carlie a Mary Sue?

Based on this description...

A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly.

Carlie Cooper has been set up, far too obviously, as Peter's next big "love". She's been too highly favored by her writer(s), lacks noteworthy flaws (not family-related problems, flaws), and looks to be there to serve an internal editorial agenda -- not as a response to any demonstrable, widespread customer enthusiasm.

I once came up with a list of things about Carlie Cooper which, IMO, put her dangerously close into Sue territory aside from what you've mentioned:

• There's been character derailment of Peter's other love interests, not just towards Mary Jane Watson, but also towards the Black Cat, Michelle Gonzales (although this is a character with her own unique set of problems) and even, in the flashback story in The Many Loves of the Amazing Spider-Man one shot, Gwen Stacy. That latter story seemed specifically designed to show Gwen — a character who has often been claimed by Marvel and some fans alike to have been "the one" for Peter — as being a meek, ineffectual worry-wart, while Carlie is presented as a gutsy and precocious wunderkind.

• Not only is Peter Parker attracted to her, his former roommate, Vin Gonzales, also had a crush on her, and Johnny Storm of the Fantastic Four also thought she was attractive and flirted with her.

• Other characters, such as Aunt May, Harry Osborn and even Peter himself, have remarked just how "perfect" or "wonderful" she would be for him.

• There have been quite a few instances in which she berates Peter for not spending enough time with her, overlooking her or always flaking out on her, which, of course, makes Peter feel guilty — this despite the fact that most of these incidents occurred when Peter and Carlie are merely just friends and not officially dating in any capacity.

• One could say her occupation as a forensic investigator for the NYPD, who helps to tip off Peter about various cases, shows that she has a role beyond just existing to be the ideal mate — except for the fact this is clearly being used to show she's Peter's ideal match since she's presented as being Peter's intellectual equal who just so happens to work in law enforcement, thereby establishing the two of them having "a lot in common."

Other ones include:

*Aside from Peter thinking he wishes he met back when he was younger and how much they have in common, it's also suggested that he feels he is undeserving of her.

*Her display of super-genius with her quick development of a knock-out gas that resembled Mr. Negative's "Devil's Breath" in order to capture her own dad (although, to be fair, that was certainly a bad-ass character defining moment for her) thus putting her on par with Peter's scientific skill.

*She's immediately established as the glasses-wearing science geek who, behind those specs, is really a knock-out.

*She's also named after Joe Quesada's own daughter, although apparently the spelling is different.

Each one of these, by themselves, do not necessarily mean Carlie is a Mary Sue; but when it's taken together in its totality, it definitely can appear that way to some people.

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	Re: Mary Sue. stillanerd 2010-12-18 05:57 am UTC (link)
	Thanks, Cyber. Saved me the trouble. I'd also add that just the fact that Marvel is having Mary Jane--the former Mrs. Peter Parker no less--act like Carlie's biggest cheerleader for a Peter/Carlie pairing is a clear indication of how desperate Marvel is in the wake of OMD/OMIT. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	Re: Mary Sue. silverzeo 2010-12-18 06:00 am UTC (link)
	........... curse you Joe..... (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	Re: Mary Sue. pervymax 2010-12-19 05:29 am UTC (link)
	+1 (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	Re: Mary Sue. stillanerd 2010-12-18 05:54 am UTC (link)
	Slight correction: Peter said "I can make a joke about Schroedinger's Cat, and she gets it1" Same idea, though. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

Re: Mary Sue.

nefrekeptah
2010-12-18 06:22 am UTC (link)

Yeah, that all sounds less like Mary Sue reasons and more like "the writers trying too hard to establish Carlie as a new love interest." Even if you could call them a Mary Sue, then obviously the writer's learned his lesson, because we're not getting any of that in Big Time.

And then there's the fact that she's named after the daughter of the architect of the new status quo.

And Brian K. Vaghun named Molly Hayes after his little sister, what's your point?

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Re: Mary Sue.

cyberghostface
2010-12-18 06:30 am UTC (link)

Yeah, that all sounds less like Mary Sue reasons and more like "the writers trying too hard to establish Carlie as a new love interest."

You say tomato, I say tamahto. Same thing.

And Brian K. Vaghun named Molly Hayes after his little sister, what's your point?

Carlie being named after Joe's daughter is the straw that broke the camel's back. It's in a completely different stratosphere than Molly.

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	Re: Mary Sue. freezer 2010-12-18 07:34 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, that all sounds less like Mary Sue reasons and more like "the writers trying too hard to establish Carlie as a new love interest." A Sue by any other name... (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 6 comments) (Show 6 comments)

	Re: Mary Sue. long_silence 2010-12-18 05:58 am UTC (link)
	New character? She's been around since BND started, that was over 100 issues ago in ASM 545. She hasn't developed an actual personality in the past 3 years. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 13 comments) (Show 13 comments)

	Re: Mary Sue. pyrotwilight 2010-12-18 06:02 am UTC (link)
	Wow. I forgot about how many issues have come out. Pretty damn "ugh" worthy. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	Re: Mary Sue. nefrekeptah 2010-12-18 06:58 am UTC (link)
	My mistake. Eecpt, just by looking at what's happened to her on Wiki, looks to me that she does have an established character - an honest cop who'll turn in her own father when he turns out to be a criminal, who always tries to do the right thing no matter how much it costs her. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Expand) (Hide 10 comments) (Show 10 comments)

	Re: Mary Sue. big_daddy_d 2010-12-18 09:26 am UTC (link)
	She hasn't developed an actual personality in the past 3 years. Now that just makes it that much sadder. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

	Re: Mary Sue. fifthie 2010-12-19 07:03 pm UTC (link)
	Nobody has said that she's "better" then Mary Jane. Except for Mary Jane saying that Carly is better than Mary Jane. mostly because she is still new She's been around for three years in a comic published 3x monthly. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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