starwolf_oakley: (Default)
[personal profile] starwolf_oakley posting in [community profile] scans_daily
I posted this in 2009. It's from the LAST LAUGH mini-series, where Oracle and Nightwing discuss superheroes using lethal force... sort of.



Basically, Oracle wonders if not doing anything to permanently stop the Joker makes them culpable for the horrible things he does.







Tim Drake is the one interrupting.

An explanation for the "Sending Gordon flowers" part.

Date: 2011-01-16 05:35 am (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
It doesn't make them culpable, anymore than the police would be culpable if a murderer escaped from prison and killed again. You can blame the prison for lax security, you can blame the justice system for not giving him the death penalty, you can't blame the cops who captured and arrested the guy. It's not their job to punish criminals.

Date: 2011-01-16 05:43 am (UTC)
k_red: (Default)
From: [personal profile] k_red
The only difference, I guess, is that the police are sanctioned and work for the government, while the vigilantes operate outside of any official backing. They're tolerated because they do good, but if they started killing people I suppose there probably would be severe repercussions and a falling out between them and the civilians/police who respect them (i.e. Gordon with Bats). Not saying I agree with the whole "heroes don't kill" thing, just trying to see it pragmatically in their world.

Date: 2011-01-16 06:07 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] thelazyreader
They do break bones and dislocate joints on a regular basis, and that's not frowned upon. If not kill him why not cripple the Joker in some way that would reduce his effectiveness at killing from that point on?

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Date: 2011-01-16 06:17 am (UTC)
auggie18: (Default)
From: [personal profile] auggie18
In the Joker's case, I'm willing to bet people would let it slid. The man has killed children. Many, many children.


No way the public isn't on Babs' "just this once" side.

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Date: 2011-01-16 11:27 pm (UTC)
realpestilence: m&s by lit_gal (Default)
From: [personal profile] realpestilence
Very good point! Plus, which heroes should be allowed to use lethal force, and against which villains? Because all of either group are not created equal. Who's going to decide the hit list?

Date: 2011-01-16 09:52 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Agreed. Though perhaps one should wonder how much the Wayne Foundation contributes to maintaining and reinforcing the security at Arkham.

Date: 2011-01-16 06:21 am (UTC)
mistervader: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mistervader
Sorry. Was too busy staring at Babs to read any speech bubbles.

Date: 2011-01-16 06:25 am (UTC)
mommy: Arshtat; Suikoden V (The same thing we do every night.)
From: [personal profile] mommy
What happened to Dick's hair? Did he get into Tim's hair gel?

Date: 2011-01-16 07:08 am (UTC)
merseybeatler: Your king volcano. (Default)
From: [personal profile] merseybeatler
Eh, I'm sure they realize he's too important to the Batman mythos to stay dead for long even if they did kill him.

Date: 2011-01-16 09:10 am (UTC)
golden_orange: trust me, i'm wearing a vegetable. (Default)
From: [personal profile] golden_orange
See, I've never really accepted the 'superheroes are to blame when supervillains break out and kill people because they never kill them first!' argument. I do think there are valid and convincing arguments for superheroes to be able to use terminal force against supervillains, but this doesn't strike me as one of them.

Firstly, Batman is not responsible for the crimes of the Joker (these points probably can be applied to any superhero / supervillain, but I'm using these two as they're probably the most prominent example). No one but the Joker is. And even if we accept that the Joker is criminally insane and thus holds diminished responsibility for his actions (and the key there is 'diminished', not 'none whatsoever'), I don't see how this magically transfers responsibility over to Batman instead. It is the Joker who, for whatever reason, escapes and commits crimes and kills, and it is no one but the Joker who holds any responsibility for his own actions.

Secondly, Batman is also not responsible for the fact that the authorities consistently choose to incarcerate the Joker in Arkham "Our Walls Might As Well Be Made Of Wet Cardboard" Asylum. Even when Arkham is not presented as an inherently unsuitable place to escape from, and the guards and doctors are not chronically incompetent and / or easily corrupted, this is the DC Universe. This is a universe full of super-science and magic, both of which could surely be pressed into the field of criminal containment. Yes, the Joker is bound to easily break out of a regular prison or asylum -- so why haven't the authorities in the DC universe invested in super-prisons or asylums?

Thirdly, Batman is not responsible for the state's refusal of the death penalty or for administering it himself. Clearly, the state considers the Joker able to be rehabilitated or cured (quite why the state considers this in light of the evidence is not so clear) rather than deserving of the death penalty, and so sentences him accordingly. Batman isn't a judge, jury or executioner, and I'd say shouldn't be more than any police officer (which, while not a perfect comparison, is probably the closest we have to a vigilante superhero like Batman). There's reasons why no legal system considered as fair allows the people who investigate and pursue the criminals to be the same people who stand in judgement over them.

Of course, all of this is irrelevant anyway, since the Joker's never going to stay in any prison for long -- he's the Joker, he's hugely popular and shifts loads of comics and movie tickets and merchandise. But then, this applies to his death as well -- even if Batman kills him, as if he's not going to come back from the dead anyway for the same reasons. This is all suspension of disbelief stuff, I fancy.

Date: 2011-01-16 09:51 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Annoyingly, even when they DO stick the Joker in a non-Arkham, designed by Mr Miracle, located in the flipping Antarctic, location, where he's supposedly drugged to the gills, he STILL escapes anyway.

Date: 2011-01-16 03:04 pm (UTC)
tsunamiwombat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tsunamiwombat
Didn't he need Anarky to bust him out of that one?

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Date: 2011-01-16 04:35 pm (UTC)
sistermagpie: Classic magpie (Default)
From: [personal profile] sistermagpie
Exactly. It gets into so many weird areas because just because Batman takes it upon himself to get involved in catching the guy doesn't mean he has any more or less responsibility than a person on the street to kill him. If Gotham continues to choose to handle him this way, that's not on Batman.

But it continues to be a problem because they've made Joker into this crazy OTT murderer and since we associate Batman as his nemesis it seems like Batman should do something about it. It encourages this idea of the people of Gotham, especially the law, as being helpless bystanders watching these two gods fight, and that's not really the way it should be, imo.

It's annoying because frankly, it's not like most of the Joker's killing sprees are more interesting to read about than any other thing he might do. It's not more creative because there's a high body count, it just draws attention to the fiction of him having to always be on the loose. Nobody even seems to remember most of his crimes unless they or someone in their family was permenantly hurt by them.

Date: 2011-01-17 01:34 am (UTC)
mcity: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mcity
There was a high-tech prison in the Arkham Asylum game. Force fields, surveillance, all paid for by Bruce Wayne. Joker managed to break loose within ten minutes of the game's start.

Date: 2011-01-16 02:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] screamsheet.wordpress.com
I think the problem with the Joker is that the writers have ruined him over the past few decades. Everyone seems to want to boost his body count to make him more dangerous each and every time. As with Batman being an emotionally stunted dick, I think a lot of it comes from The Dark Knight Returns, where the Joker murdered hundreds of people - except that was an extreme example of his killing sprees and was even called out as such in the book (not to mention that The Dark Knight Returns is a crapsack alternate future, not what the mainstream DCU should be).

No one presented this argument when the Joker's killing sprees would be in the single digits, or when his appearances were kept fairly rare. But now we've got Joker story after Joker story after Joker story where he winds up being a bigger mass murderer than Stalin, and the argument is becoming more and more common. The writers seriously need to show some restraint in dealing with this character, because the more over the top it gets, the less believable it becomes that anyone would just lock him away.

Date: 2011-01-16 02:42 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
I still like the notion I read somewhere years ago that the Joker should be killed, by the REAL Joker, who'd left someone he'd driven insane as the Joker to fill in for him whilst he went off and did his own thing for a while, but has become disgusted by his replacements descent into mindless mass murder. Where's the whimsy? Where are the themed capers? (Outside of Paul Dini stories)

The Joker has no problem with killing when it's funny, but seriously, beating Robin to death with a crowbar? And then covering it up? That's neither funny NOR Joker-ish.

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Date: 2011-01-16 02:55 pm (UTC)
misterbug: (Default)
From: [personal profile] misterbug
With THAT hair, I keep expecting Dick to suddenly transform into a silly imp in a purple suit and cackle "Gotcha!" at Babs.

Date: 2011-01-16 04:17 pm (UTC)
blunderbuss: (Default)
From: [personal profile] blunderbuss
See, this is the inherit problem that DC comics have made for themselves.

They want to have a cast of people that refuse to kill because of moral codes, because of idealism, because of the hope of reform, and so forth. Sure, fair enough.

The problem is, they ALSO want a villian who keeps constantly doing more and more depraved things for the 'ratings', but always keeping them around for the next comic, meaning that they never really recieve justice.

You really can't have both in play without making the good guys look like shmucks. Sure, they're not responsible for what Joker does, but the fact that no one has seen Joker's endless escapes and finally tried something to stop him for good just makes them look inept instead of heroic. FFS, Babs will be in a wheelchair forever but Joker is still mostly unscathed!

If you're going to have heroes, make their accomplishments actually have WEIGHT and finality. Have Joker suffer something as powerful as being in a wheelchair for life. Have his escapes and murders be rare. Just goddamn ANYTHING than just skip off to jail and break free a week later.

Date: 2011-01-16 04:34 pm (UTC)
darrylayo: iPhone (iPhone)
From: [personal profile] darrylayo
The Batman is personally culpable for The Joker's murders because:

1) The Joker has stated many times that he was inspired by The Batman.

most importantly

2) The Batman is the only person, force or thing capable of capturing or containing The Joker, even temporarily. The first time is one thing, but as a multiple-proven escape artist, quadruple-digit murderer, it becomes the duty of the only agent in the world who can even hope to stop the criminal to put his foot down and stop him for good.


If you lived in Gotham City, you know somebody who was killed by The Joker.

Date: 2011-01-16 05:56 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Neither of those in any way make Batman culpable.

1) The fact a lunatic is obsessed with you does not make you guilty for their crimes.

2) The fact that the authorities which Batman, rightly, hands the Joker on to, are about as efficient as the Keystone Kops at keeping him in check is no reflection on Batman, if they did their job, it wouldn't be an issue. Plus, Batman is not an "agent" of anyone, that's sort of the point of being a vigilante, he has no duty except to his own conscience, and that is sworn against killing.

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Date: 2011-01-16 09:43 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] hyperactivator
I restate my opinion that the Joker should be killed by one of the random civilians that he threatens who just happens to have a legal gun.

Either that or casually at a fancy dinner party by Doctor Doom at the start of a crossover.

Date: 2011-01-16 11:34 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Robin Joker Another day....)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Yes, have to say that the Joker not having been killed whilst in Arkham/jail or in the holding pen at GCPD HQ is MUCH more annoying than Batman not killing him.

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Date: 2011-01-17 01:57 am (UTC)
tacobob: Mordecai Not Very Impressed (Default)
From: [personal profile] tacobob
Nah, the worse thing about killing the bad guys, is if they did, all the good guys would have to get real jobs! And I don't think Mister Grayson fits in his 'Flying Grayson' costume anymore!

A little video to add to the topic

Date: 2011-01-17 02:19 am (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Ra's al Ghul)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
And for those who want to see Batman just cross that line with the Joker, well here you go. This happens to be a great fan film and is among my favorites, along with The Question, Blue Beetle, and Green Hornet fan films.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQU0DnCAnDU

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