angelophile: (Batman - Subtext you say?)
[personal profile] angelophile posting in [community profile] scans_daily

Three pages from Amazing Fantasy Vol. 2 #1.

Arana Page 1

Arana Page 1

Arana Page 2

Arana Page 3

The very first appearance of Araña, and, re-reading this earlier today, it occurs to me that when I first read this book I took Lynn’s line about “waiting for my girlfriend” on face value and assumed that Anya was queer. I haven’t really had cause to reassess that reading since. Writer’s intent or no, does it count as subtext when it’s right there on the page?

I probably gave Marvel too much credit, in retrospect, for creating a queer Latino teen superhero, especially since, in recent months they’ve been trying to erase everything but the superhero part of that character description.

Date: 2011-02-25 01:08 pm (UTC)
stolisomancer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stolisomancer
I don't know if I'd go that far. She taught Toro English in Young Allies and proudly identified as Puerto Rican there.

As far as Anya goes, I'm slightly more concerned about the high angst level of her solo book than anything else. I'm kind of surprised more of that doesn't get posted here, particularly since Paul Tobin just used it to introduce Chat to the mainstream MU.

Date: 2011-02-25 01:48 pm (UTC)
stolisomancer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stolisomancer
Just so I'm clear, when you say "Vixenification," do you mean she's getting lighter-skinned? It took me a second to figure out what you were going for with that, since Spider-Girl's got some of the least fanservice-y covers I've ever seen.

Date: 2011-02-25 03:48 pm (UTC)
turtlefu: (Default)
From: [personal profile] turtlefu
I don't mind the rename or her supposedly white washing (which I don't even see nor agree on), but I completely agree about Tobin's writing.
He writes such good MA stories, but the tone of his 616 book is so dark and unnecessarily grim!
I used to think he was a good writer, but I know now that he isn't.

Date: 2011-02-25 04:30 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
So in other words, he IS a good writer, just not in the context of the 616 Marvel Universe. Like, say... 'Superman Adventures' Mark Millar and 'Everything Else He's Ever Written Nearly' Mark Millar.

Date: 2011-02-25 06:41 pm (UTC)
stolisomancer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stolisomancer
Even then, Tobin did great work on the Venus/Namora backup in Fall of an Avenger. I'd say he's a perfectly good writer who's made an incredible misstep, and hey: it happens.

Date: 2011-02-25 06:40 pm (UTC)
stolisomancer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stolisomancer
I used to think he was a good writer, but I know now that he isn't.

...yyyyyeah, you might need to reexamine that statement.

Date: 2011-02-25 04:42 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I think you have to consider the change to Spider-Girl a purely sales based move. At the time Grim Hunt wrapped, Arana was either gonna have her own book or be the lead in Young Allies, and a recognisable name will pull in sales better, frankly.

I mean, look at her debut. She appeared in Amazing Fantasy's relaunch, and that apparently warranted her gaining her own title, in her name, which didn't last long. So Spider-Girl's gonna net her at least a few more sales.

Also, Young Allies did feature her in the Spider-Girl name and costume, so.. Yeah.

Date: 2011-02-25 04:37 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I'd say that's my biggest problem with her book at the moment. Four issues in and she's already lost her father and has to fight against the same girl who was trying to murder her as part of the plot to bring her pappy back.

For me, that's A) too much angst - I know they're likely trying to throw together similarities between her and Pete, and B) I think throwing her into a fight against Ana Kravinoff so soon in her title's history is a mistake, because it steeps the book too heavily in lore defined by a story that happened.. What, four months back, and that Marvel are assuming people have read.

Date: 2011-02-25 06:46 pm (UTC)
stolisomancer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stolisomancer
Yeah, it's way way too much angst for a character who legitimately didn't need it. I'm willing to give him points for a realistic depiction of grief and Anya's friends being perfectly supportive, but the entire thing is unnecessary to start with. It's well-written fallout from a bad plot decision.

The Ana Kravinoff thing didn't really bother me, because that final couple of pages in the latest issue makes Anya genuinely badass. "You're in my web. Let's go."

Date: 2011-02-25 01:12 pm (UTC)
punishermax: (Default)
From: [personal profile] punishermax
Quick question:

What's the acceptable term here? I always thought queer was generally used in an insulting context and gay was the accepted term.

Just curious so I don't make an ass of myself here by using the wrong term.

Date: 2011-02-25 01:21 pm (UTC)
salinea: renee/kate hugging (femslash)
From: [personal profile] salinea
Queer has been an insult for a long time; but it's also been reclaimed a lot, making it okay in some contexts (if you're not sure about it, probably you should avoid it). Queer also has a broader meaning, often use as an umbrella term for everything not-straight; so it's often interchangeable with LGBT : whereas "gay" tends to mean only gay men & sometimes lesbians, "queer" encompasses bisexual & transgender people.
ETA: In some context, queer can also encompass identities like asexual people,polyamourous people & kinksters. Personally I rather love how broad it is ;)

Date: 2011-02-25 01:26 pm (UTC)
punishermax: (Default)
From: [personal profile] punishermax

Date: 2011-02-25 03:16 pm (UTC)
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)
From: [personal profile] nezchan
I've rarely heard it encompass transgender, and many I've known would consider it insulting to use it for that aspect of their lives. Their sexual preferences, on the other hand, that'd be fair game.

Most of what I've heard it for is sexual preferences. Gay,straight, bi, omni, etc., but mostly in the "community" sense.

Date: 2011-02-25 04:50 pm (UTC)
catbird: (Default)
From: [personal profile] catbird
I have heard it encompass transgender, and I would also add that it's a very popular term among the more politically inclined, for example I've seen many left/anarchist/punk locales call themselves "queer-friendly" to basically mean that they don't discriminate against people based on their gender or sexuality.

Date: 2011-02-26 01:57 am (UTC)
bluefall: an ape in the Thinker pose (ponder-y ape)
From: [personal profile] bluefall
In my experience it's been pretty much completely reclaimed. Like to the point where college courses are "queer studies" and whatnot. Obviously it still gets used as an insult, but only inasmuch as anything can be used as an insult if you say it with enough hatred and contempt, even if it's usually neutral or even a title of pride (compare "Jew" or "Irish" for example).

Date: 2011-02-26 02:16 am (UTC)
salinea: (that's the question)
From: [personal profile] salinea
I think it's especially reclaimed in the context of academia actually. I'm not a native speaker of English so I won't try to say what's completely reclaimed or not (it certainly seems to be the most successfully reclaimed insult I know of); but I think I heard of people not being completely comfortable with it a few times, so I thought it'd be best being cautious.

"Jew" & "Irish" didn't start out as insult, it was never their primary meaning, so I don't see how it's comparable.

Date: 2011-02-26 02:33 am (UTC)
bluefall: (jumpa questions this)
From: [personal profile] bluefall

You can make beer out of barley. You can make beer out of wheat. Their differing origins doesn't particularly impact the similarity or validity of comparison of one beer to another after production.

Date: 2011-02-26 02:45 am (UTC)
salinea: Magneto going *?* (wtf)
From: [personal profile] salinea
.... whut?

I think your analogy is too drunk to drive.

Date: 2011-02-26 03:00 am (UTC)
bluefall: blue-tinted autumn leaves (Default)
From: [personal profile] bluefall
... two things can have different origins and nevertheless be pretty similar...? How is that unclear?

If you prefer I can use paint. You can make white paint out of lead, or you can make white paint out of powdered milk. Either way, you get white paint, which logically one could reasonably compare and contrast with other white paint, regardless of origin.

Or we could talk about animals. Bats can fly, and so can birds. Bats started out as small rodents, birds started out as dinosaurs. And yet saying "bats flap their wings to fly, like birds" is totally reasonable, even despite their wildly disparate evolutionary histories.

Or hey, how about comics? Superman is an alien from another planet who was created by a couple of American dudes in the 1930s, and Thor is a deity handed to us by the ancient pre-Christian Norse. And yet regardless of this wild difference in their beginnings, "Thor is incredibly strong, like Superman" is still a perfectly sensible and automatic thing to say.

Does that help?

Date: 2011-02-26 03:12 am (UTC)
salinea: Storm facepalming (oy)
From: [personal profile] salinea
Okay, let me rephrase, it's not that I don't understand what you say, it's just that on the strength of the analogy alone, I don't find the logic persuasive.

"Queer" used to be a normal word for "strange, odd", that got devoyed as a slur against gay people, that we eventually reclaimed as a word for LGB(perhaps/perhaps not T) people. It wasn't ours in the first place, but we made it ours in order to taunt those who hated us.

"Jews" is the word for Jews, was always the word for Jews since the diaspora. Sometimes it is used against us with hatred and venom, preceded with qualitative like "dirty"; but it was always, in the first place, our word, which we were born with (except for the few of us who converted into it); and which we can't leave behind even for the few of us who do convert out. We didn't reclaim it from the days were anti-semitism was pervasive (in the places where it's past), because it never belonged to the haters in the first place.
"Jew" was never a slur, even when spoken with hatred. "Kike" is. We don't try to reclaim it.

I don't believe Irish was ever a slur either.

Date: 2011-02-26 03:23 am (UTC)
bluefall: Babs, looking grumpy and unimpressed (Babs is a grump)
From: [personal profile] bluefall
All true.

And yet none of that makes any difference whatsoever to the fact that the way "queer" is both used as a neutral term by the group referred to and as an insult by bigoted outsiders is similar to the way "Jew" is both used as a neutral term by the group referred to and as an insult by bigoted outsiders. And therefore, if a person has an understanding of the way that "Jew" can be used both positive/neutrally and negatively, they can be told that "queer" is similar in modern usage in order to quickly and easily understand that word's application as well.

This is kind of what the word "like," "compare" and the whole process of analogy is for. Things are like other things. It doesn't mean they're the same, it means they're similar in an illustratively useful way. That is what "like" means.

Date: 2011-02-26 03:35 am (UTC)
salinea: (pensive)
From: [personal profile] salinea
"queer" is both used as a neutral term by the group referred to and as an insult by bigoted outsiders is similar to the way "Jew" is both used as a neutral term by the group referred to and as an insult by bigoted outsiders. And therefore, if a person has an understanding of the way that "Jew" can be used both positive/neutrally and negatively, they can be told that "queer" is similar in modern usage in order to quickly and easily understand that word's application as well.
okay, now i think i understand what you mean; and i guess kinda-maybe-a-little-bit.

Date: 2011-02-26 03:29 am (UTC)
bluefall: blue-tinted autumn leaves (Default)
From: [personal profile] bluefall
(on reread i realize that may read a little hostile, which is not my intent, and i apologize.)

Date: 2011-02-26 03:35 am (UTC)
salinea: (polite)
From: [personal profile] salinea
(no problem & likewise)

Date: 2011-02-26 07:50 am (UTC)
proteus_lives: (Default)
From: [personal profile] proteus_lives
"I don't believe Irish was ever a slur either."

Then you never heard it coming from a hateful Englishman. I was sitting in a bar and this Brit fellow said "Irish" like you would say "dogshit".

I heard never heard such contempt and ugliness packed into one word.

Date: 2011-02-26 03:13 pm (UTC)
salinea: (Default)
From: [personal profile] salinea

did you read what I wrote?

I always thought Anya Sofia liked girls

Date: 2011-02-25 06:40 pm (UTC)
jazzypom: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jazzypom
What with the hooyay between Rikki and herself. I do like the comic, although I miss her Young Allies title, and the fact that there isn't much Spanish (I liked the fact that in Young Allies, it was pretty organic). But I'm willing to see where it's going to go.
Edited Date: 2011-02-25 06:44 pm (UTC)

Date: 2011-02-25 08:42 pm (UTC)
proteus_lives: (Default)
From: [personal profile] proteus_lives

Date: 2011-02-25 09:12 pm (UTC)
hamimi_fk: Random girl (Himeko ouch)
From: [personal profile] hamimi_fk
Okay, so I totally flailed happily at the idea that maybe Arana might be pitching for the fun side (well, fun for me, at least), but after reading some of the comments here, I'm glad I haven't been able to follow the comics with her since she debuted with her own title (no money, sadly).

I mean, white-washed? Now her nationality is becoming questionable when she's cleared stated she's Puerto-Rican? Ugh. Disgusting.

Though, I will disagree with some of the complaints about too much angst. I love angst, though, there can be 'too much' (though, it takes a LOT of it for me to say that). So I'm torn about how I feel that I haven't been able to keep up with Arana's 'storyline'. =\

Still, seeing these pages made my day. ^_^

Spider Girl Gay?

Date: 2011-02-25 09:18 pm (UTC)
nefrekeptah: (Ohshit)
From: [personal profile] nefrekeptah
I'd... have to say that it's just you. Nowhere in anything I've read is there any evidence that Anya is lesbian. And seeing as how her friend here spends quite a bit of the regular Arana series gushing over Anya's arch-enemy (long story) it's safe to say she isn't either.

And after reading a bit from my door-stopper huge Ult. Spider-Man Collection book, the "Teen" dialogue here just makes me cringe.

Date: 2011-02-25 09:48 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
That's how I read it too.

Maybe because people don't tend to say "girlfriend" unless they mean "romantic partner" here?

Date: 2011-02-26 01:43 am (UTC)
bluefall: A surprised-looking cat (puzzled Krosp)
From: [personal profile] bluefall
Yeah, I don't know how else to even read that. Not just because "girlfriend" for "friend who is a girl" is something nobody younger than fifty has ever said in my presence in my life, but also because the guys are immediately like "oh you mean Anya." Presumably she has more than one female friend, so for them to immediately know who she's talking about suggests a rather more specific definition.

Plus the annoyed way she emphasizes the word really reads as the word being the reason she's annoyed, and that only makes sense if it's because "girlfriend" implies a particularly strong obligation to not stand a person up.

I'm really surprised to say it, but this looks like flat-out completely casual canon to me.

Date: 2011-02-26 06:59 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] psychopathicus_rex
I think some harder evidence than this would be required to classify her as a lesbian. 'Girlfriend' is an awfully broad term, after all - it CAN mean 'romantic interest who is a girl', or it can also mean 'friend who is a girl', and both uses are fairly widespread, as far as I can tell.


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