thehefner: (Default)
[personal profile] thehefner posting in [community profile] scans_daily
A couple months back, I got into yet another debate with someone about why I hated Batman using a gun in Final Crisis. I meant to post this at the time as a canonical response, but got distracted with IRL stuff and general geekery at my Two-Face fanblog. Besides, I figured this might be controversial, since it's a controversial real-life topic combined with a controversial comic topic, taken from a comic that was deeply controversial at the time it was released: Batman: Seduction of the Gun.

B:SotG was an anti-gun one-shot published as a benefit issue for the John Reisenbach Foundation for gun-control education activities, a fact which wasn't revealed to readers until the end. DC was flooded with angry letters from gun owners and Second Amendment advocates, many of which were published in the early Knightfall issues. Many letters were along the lines of "My heart goes out to the Reisenbach family, what a tragedy, BUT STILL GUN CONTROL IS BAD I FEEL BETRAYED FOR ACCIDENTALLY DONATING MONEY TO THIS CAUSE." I could do a whole post about that comic and the response it got.

So it might be a bit unfair to use these pages as my reasoning why Batman would never use a gun, and would always find another way to save the day because he's frickin' Batman. It's a very biased perspective. But in this case, I believe it also entirely fits with Batman as a character, and how he's always reacted to guns and gun violence.

WARNING: this is the single most graphic description of exactly how the Waynes died.

Some context: Hudson, a teenage friend of Tim's, decided to show off his father's gun to the guys. In classic After-School Special fashion, he started horsing around and it went off in the friend's living room.

I think it's the first two panels on the last page that really make this, in that it shows how much Bruce elevates Thomas Wayne in memory. Never mind that Thomas was human, and could easily have been killed another way. The point is, that's just how ingrained this ideal is into Bruce's character.

That said, I'm sure there's a point to be made about how Final Crisis was so powerful because he managed to overcome his feelings to do the right thing, yadda yadda yadda. If the story worked for you, well, there's nothing I can say. But for me--and I suspect for many Batman readers--this is why we can never imagine Bruce pulling the trigger on anybody. I could sooner see him shoving the god-bullet into Darkseid by hand. Because he's the goddamn Batman, after all.

Date: 2011-03-28 11:43 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
When Dick told Bruce he wanted to become a policeman, Bruce's more or less first and very disapproving comment was "You'll have to carry a gun".

A while later when Dick comes to the cave still wearing his Police uniform, Bruce coldly tells him he is NEVER to bring his gun to the cave again.

Vigilante has never been a League member that I recall, and Hitman was turfed out of the JLA auditions within a minute. (Plus Bruce showed complete detestation for Punisher the one time he's met him)

And it was established from Jason 2.0's introduction that Bruce actually taught his Robins how to use firearms, especially a rifle (with anaesthetic darts) because he appreciates they could be useful in extreme situations and doesn't want a Robin killed because he lacked an option. Dick and Tim have also commented since then that they CAN use a gun, but they don't out of respect for Bruce.

Date: 2011-03-28 11:56 pm (UTC)
sigmund_droid: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sigmund_droid
You sir are a walking encyclopedia of all things Batman, kudos.

I was about to respond with something like "BATMAN NO LIKE PUNISHER!" and then proceed to dodge every question afterwords about the context.

Date: 2011-03-28 11:58 pm (UTC)
sianmink: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sianmink
Bruce got issues. >.>

Now I'm imagining scenarios where Bruce's parents were murdered in different ways. Imagine if they were killed with a trident.

Date: 2011-03-29 12:24 am (UTC)
bradhanon: (Serious editor)
From: [personal profile] bradhanon
I'm a gun owner myself, and I absolutely loved the bit in JLA/Avengers where Batman spends like twenty minutes just beating the living shit out of the Punisher. Liking guns doesn't mean I like macho sociopaths. :)

Date: 2011-03-29 01:30 am (UTC)
lieut_kettch: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lieut_kettch
Bruce has met Frank at least twice: first, in the the second issue of the Batman/Punisher series; then later on off-panel in JLA/Avengers.

Date: 2011-03-29 05:14 am (UTC)
kusonaga: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kusonaga
I don't know, I get his fear and all, but the scene with Dick that you describe feels like a gross overreaction. He's a policeman. You (as in Bruce) respect policemen (the good ones, anyway), even help them. Policemen carry guns. Is he going to ask Gordon to leave his firearm in the office when they meet?

Date: 2011-03-29 06:53 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] omgwtflolbbqbye
Another way to look at it though, and it's sort of the impression that I always got, was that Bruce is ok with cops and people like Gordon using guns cause he recognizes that they put themselves on the line to do a dangerous and much under appreciated job. But unlike him, cops don't have the kind of training or resources he does, so he sees the gun as a necessary precaution in that case, especially if they are using it to protect other people.

I could imagine him being a bit hostile towards Dick using a gun just cause he would figure Dick doesn't really need the gun with his training as Robin. And also, unlike most everyone else on the planet, Dick knows the personal reasons and emotions behind Bruce's attitude towards guns, as irrational as they are, so he should still know better than to bring one into Bat's private sanctuary anyways.

Date: 2011-03-29 04:18 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Using a gun is one thing, but carrying one holstered safely is different.

It's also strongly suggesting that Bruce feels Dick lacks the self control to NOT use his gun (probably a la "Sledge Hammer") which is an insane and rather insulting POV.


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