I hope, if I have one redeeming feature...

[icon_uk]

it's that I can give credit where credit is due. I'm not a fan of much of Devin Grayson's output, but she can write a darn good character scene, Jim Lee tends to leave me unimpressed, but he can draw a darn pretty Dynamic Duo from time to time.

And so, in the interests of fairness and honesty I have to say that I liked this inteview up at newsarama

In which Judd Winick speaks about his forthcoming arc on Batman and Robin....

Nrama: But this Batman isn't Bruce. This is Dick. What are Jason's feelings about him?
Winick: Jason hates Dick Grayson. He's the good son; he's the one that worked out; he's the one that "Dad" loves best. For me, there's a philosophy behind Jason and Dick that I haven't had a chance to play out fully. I don't think it's going to play out in this story, because it's probably not the place for it. But I don't mind putting the philosophy out there:

One thing that haunts Jason is that he thinks if Dick Grayson who was the one that was about to die, Batman would have saved him.
And worse, if Dick Grayson was murdered, Jason knows that Batman would have killed Joker. He knows that in his heart.

The dark, dark thing for Jason is that he doesn't feel Bruce's refusal to take revenge on the Joker is just about Batman's morals and code that he won't break. He thinks it's about him. He thinks that if Dick Grayson was the one who was murdered, Batman would have definitely killed Joker.

Nrama: So what do Dick and Damian think of Jason as they are forced to kind of team-up with him in this story?

Well, you'll need to go to the interview page to read the answer to that, it's only fair to Newsarama. :)

That's a nice summation of Jason Todd's feelings for Bruce and Dick, and expressed more clearly than I think it has been shown in the comics (IMHO of course). Especially the notion that Jason is convinced that if Dick had died, Bruce WOULD have killed the Joker (The events in "Infinite Crisis" where Bruce pulls a gun on Alex Luthor sort of support that, depending on how you read the original scene) This actually makes me want to read the issues to see how it plays out. Kudos to Mr Winick for that.

For context, the cute, how Jason probably views the role of Robin (These were designed by one of my favourite artists Andy Price for Lego Batman T-shirt that alas, they only made in child sizes, because I would wear the hell out of any of them!)




For fun, the sublime, the history of the Robins, in animated form



Which originated here

And for legality, the ridiculous, in the form of a "Context is for the weak" from "Batman: The Cult"

Comments

[citygod]

Well, I know a child who is going to wear those shirts, if he wants to or not! Where can I get them?

[mrstatham]

In the UK, I've seen ones like those, or very similar, in the childrens clothing sections of Tesco.

[icon_uk]

Yes, I've seen the basic ones with the sort of "posed photograph of the mini-figures" types in supermarkets over here, but not the cartoon-y type ones in the post.

[icon_uk]

I got these images off e-bay, so that might be your best shot.

Or there's Amazon, which has a few, including this one

[icon_uk]

Oh, and this one



Can be obtained in the UK from play.com in an adult size, but it's perhaps a little... disturbing.

[citygod]

great info, thanks. That Bane shirt is hilarious. But if I gave that to my friends kid, I'd never get invited over again!

[icon_uk]

Also here

[stubbleupdate]

The Best thing about Lego Batman the video game is being able to do that to everybody as Bane.

[icon_uk]

I don't play as Bane too often, but that's good to know, and I ADORE the Lego Batman game more than is probably entirely healthy! :)

[whitesycamore]

Oh, it's all well and good until you can't find that lever, or whatever is it you need to destroy, and Robin thinks it might be thataway but you're all perched on this tiny ledge trying to make a big jump and the invisible cord of his neediness keeps pulling you away GRAWWWWADFJSDK.

Or that's what I heard, anyway.

[icon_uk]

Meh, I get round that by normally playing as Robin (or Nightwing when he's unlocked) and letting Batman get all needy. :)

[kamino_neko]

... Really?

Aaaw, I wish they'd kept that in the DS version. (Though I can see why they didn't.)

[shadowpsykie]

O 0
O Lego Batman is twisted......

[icon_uk]

Twisted AND AWESOME!!!!

[kamino_neko]

At first I laughed.

Then I got distracted by the fact that that's not what the connector on Lego minifig legs looks like.

Then I laughed at myself for being so nitpicky, and laughed again.

[darkblade]

There was some fanart I saw along those lines a while back. I can't seem to find it right now but since it was based on The Killing Joke it's probably for the best.

[proteus_lives]

That is so awesome it knocked me out of my chair.

[schala_kid]

I've seen them in Wal-Mart in the US

[hyperactivator]

interesting

[trafalgar]

The animated Robins (so cute!) is from here: http://kuromdbox.blog104.fc2.com/

Neat stuff. :)

[icon_uk]

Thank you, I'll add in a link to the main post. There's some seriously (and in some cases weirdly) cute stuff there! :)

[trafalgar]

Yeah, there's some underage Damian stuff too, so that might be worth a warning, I forgot to mention.

[icon_uk]

Hadn't got that far when you posted that, thank you for the warning.

Still there are some other nice bits like the recasting of "The Batman" opening title frame here

[trafalgar]

I would watch the hell out of that show. Even though a lot of The Batman was a little hit or miss for me. But not too bad, overall.

[kamino_neko]

Man, Google's machine translation of that is hilarious....

I'm Batman Dick rather than blues

Blues Wayne, I think, is Bruce's singing cousin.

[trafalgar]

Blues Wayne, I think, is Bruce's singing cousin.

Matches Malone's jazzy twin bro???

[icon_uk]

"Blues" Wayne, meet "Jazz hands" Grayson!

[thehefner]

I've been revisiting The Cult ever since some people have used scans of that to dismiss my "Why Batman would never use a gun" scans from Seduction of the Gun. Man, what an ugly, disgusting relic. If there's a plus side to take away from that story, it's knowing that most Batman comics didn't grossly follow the worst traits of Dark Knight Returns Miller Batman to the extent that Starlin, Wrightson, and Wray did.

[icon_uk]

I confess I've never been a fan of "The Cult", for the very reasons you cite, like much of the era, it's trying to be like DKR whilst overlooking the fact that DKR worked because it was set in a notional future and so could get away with more.

I was stunned to realise that "The Cult" is still apparently in canon (Deacon Blackfire showed up as a Black Lantern)

It does have a nice scene or two with Jason as Robin being about as badass as he ever got to be, but the overall sub-DKR grotesquery of it put me off it big time (And I really hate having to say that about anything by Berni Wrightson, a genuinely awesome artist)

[thehefner]

Motto to absolutely everything here, right down to Wrightson being genuinely awesome. I'm glad their sequel got reworked as a Punisher story. It fits Castle's world much better.

[jlbarnett]

I'm beginning to think that the reason Miller wrote ASSBAR Batman the way he did, and declared it to be the past of the DKR universe is he'd decided to show DKR Bruce was always fundamentally broken

[icon_uk]

Agreed. And given what DKSA said about Dick's fate, that just makes ASSBAR seem to be approaching the perverse deliberately; "See the happy, shiny Robin who seems to be making Batman happy, and who the writer has said is the real focus character... just wait..."

[darkblade]

I'm going to stay in my alternate universe where those comics do not exist.

[icon_uk]

Room for one more?

[darkknightjrk]

Oh yeah...for a second there I forgot all about the "guns" in The Cult--story-wise, it makes some sense, in that they're said in-story to be tranquilizer darts, and that Bruce and Jason had to go through an entire army.

[schala_kid]

I bought one of those Lego shirts in Large, I had to adjust it a little bit in the shoulder area since it was too large for me (every other part fit right or was tight, lol).

[icon_uk]

Unfortunately I'm over 6 feet tall, so I doubt I could wear one that didn't look embarrassing.

[whitesycamore]

How big are the large? I can fit into a boy's shirt aged 10-12 no problem, although, like you said, I do sometimes have an issue with the cut that seems made to fit those big square shoulders that they don't even have yet (wtf?) Still, I like my t-shirts figure-hugging as long as it doesn't distort the picture too much, and it's a way better solution than wearing a man's size small IMO.

I'd love to get the one with the sidekick reassembly image. Yeah, I think it sums up Jason's problem with the Tim-replacement quite succinctly!

[blackruzsa]

That is one cute animation.

[kurenai-tenka.livejournal.com]

I love that interview, and probably professed my love for Judd waaay too many times whilst reading it. :P

[icon_uk]

And by "professed your love" you mean..? Umm, you know what, on second thoughts, forget I asked that

;)

[kurenai-tenka.livejournal.com]

Hur hur. ;)

[icon_uk]

Sorry, but don't forget that a cheap laugh is still a laugh!

[aaron_bourque]

. . . . Batman did everything possible to save Jason Todd. Shut up Jason Todd.

Also, Batman did everything he could to kill the Joker immediately after you died, Jason Todd. Shut up, Jason Todd.

Finally, YOU ARE NOW ALIVE JASON TODD, SHUT THE FUCK UP JASON TODD.

[benicio127]

Ummmmm... how would Jason know all of this if no one has ever told him? Because no one, including Bruce, actually has. Ever. Soo.... since he can't read minds....

[icon_uk]

Without wanting to be "that guy" again, Jason hasn't been in an information vacuum since his return. He's had information from Talia (filtered I grant you, but still, it's a start), the newspaper reports we've seen him reading (when he learned about Tim's existence and him checking out Batman's confrontation with Joker at the UN is a matter of public record) and personal observations (Jason has been trained in observation and deduction by Bruce), as well as his knowledge of Bruces mindset from experience.

He's also interacted with Bruce, the Joker, Dick, Tim, even Donna for a while, he should have picked up on what went on after his death from those experiences.

[benicio127]

But.... would those news reports say that Superman stopped Batman from killing the Joker? I mean... only the two of them know that. And only the three of them knew about the helicopter scenario. I don't think anyone else was actually privy to that information except those three. (Does Dick even know about what happened in the helicopter and at the UN? Bruce didn't even tell him Jason was dead! And that's Dick we're talking about; the closest person to him, apart from Alfred, Clark and maybe Selina.)

And simply because he's interacted with all of them still doesn't mean that they've told him. Because they haven't. Certainly not in any canon scene I've read. Other than Tim saying, "no one could forget you," and Jason being in the Batcave and seeing his Robin memorial. I think it's kind of like asking the character to be a mind-reader when he doesn't have those abilities. But how is he supposed to glean that Bruce did try to kill the Joker from that?

[icon_uk]

I think that Bruce did eventually talk to Dick about it, and certainly Dick has known what the loss of Jason did to Bruce and could articulate that better than most.

That said, I see you point and now more than ever I want to see Jason encounter Alfred.... perhaps after a little chat with Superman about what went down during the helicopter flight.

[benicio127]

I think that Bruce did eventually talk to Dick about it, and certainly Dick has known what the loss of Jason did to Bruce and could articulate that better than most

Yep, he did... but he still hasn't told Jason about that. (Bruce not telling him, Bruce shutting down, even how Bruce treated Dick post-Jason's death, which was really a lot of hurtful stuff -- I'm thinking about the Marv Wolfman written scene)

That said, I see you point and now more than ever I want to see Jason encounter Alfred.... perhaps after a little chat with Superman about what went down during the helicopter flight.

So do I. I don't think Jason would have anything against Alfred and hopefully Alfred could at least give him a different perspective of which to see things from.

[icon_uk]

I firmly believe that Alfred could do more to get Jason past his obsessions with some well modulated disappointment than Bruce or Dick can with anger or reasoning.

"I expected better from you Master Jason." should stop any member of the Batfamily (even the estranged ones) in their tracks and make them rethink their course of action.

[aaron_bourque]

None of this matters because the simple fact is this:

Batman didn't avenge Jason's death, and yet Jason is alive again. Thus, we can draw at least one of two conclusions. A) Vengeance is pointless. B) Lack of vengeance leads to resurrections.

In other words, shut up Jason Todd.

[benicio127]

Yeah, OK...... . Welp, I pretty much hope Jason never shuts up, so there you go.

[aaron_bourque]

Think about it this way. If you died and were brought back to life, which would you do:

1) Whine and complain and kill people about how your death was never avenged

or

2) Go "Whoah, hey! I'm alive again! Yay!"

[nevermore999]

I'm not the hugest fan of Jason or anytrhing (I like him okay)

but

I'm pretty sure that having your brains beaten out by a crowbar (while Mom watches impassively) and getting blown up while your mother watches AS A YOUNG TEENAGER and then after digging yourself out of your grave and suffering memory loss and general brain trauma, then some pretty weird circumstances (living with villains who actively encourage your negative feelings about the situation) and then finding out the dude who not only killed you, but your mother is still at large and killing people and nobody is doing shit to stop him.

Well.

I'm sure you'd just "get over it".

Like it or not, Jason brings up some pretty legit issues about Bruce occasionally even if he's a terror and doing bad shit. And I can't really blame him for being mentally unstable and blaming Bruce for certain things after what he's been through.

Then again, I just generally side against Bruce, who treats his kids like shit. All the time. And never stops. So I don't mind in the least if one of them gives him hell, even if some of the reasons are specious.

(I probably won't reply to whatever you post back, I'm busy right now and just don't actually care about arguing about Jason. Just had to reply once for some reason, in a weird mood.)

[aaron_bourque]

I'm not saying he'd get over it. I'm saying he's obsessing over it to an unhealthy degree, even by Batman family standards.

I just generally side against Bruce, who treats his kids like shit. All the time. And never stops.

. . .

. . . no.

[whitesycamore]

Yes.

Count me as one of the people who thinks Jason has semi-legitimate reasons to feel the way he does.

Even someone who thinks Jason is useless should admit that perhaps then Bruce shouldn't have used him. Because that's what Jason thinks happened, and he is at least half right.

[aaron_bourque]

. . . who thinks Jason was useless?

[benicio127]

A number of people in comics fandom tend to perpetuate this, along with the idea that he was hated by everyone and therefore, that's why he was killed off. Sadly, someone saying "Jason was useless" as Robin or whatever is not a rare comment.

[aaron_bourque]

But . . . that's not why he was hated. And technically him being hated wasn't why he was killed off.

[benicio127]

Well, what I'm saying is those are the ideas that comics fandom perpetuates, and I'm not saying that they're based in reality. But they're still perpetuated.

[benicio127]

That's a rather strange question you're asking me and is kind of difficult to answer as I can't die and come back. (And I mean comic books are pretty much fantasy stories).

Jason is still a victim of a seriously traumatic event. Looking at it this way: when Barbara was shot and heard that Bruce was standing and laughing with her perpetrator, she was angry at him (Oracle: Year One) and justifiably so based on the version of events that she had. Whether you like the Killing Joke or not, it happened and Bruce may have stood there laughing with the Joker -- the guy who had only recently shot her in the spine, degraded her and degraded her father. Would you expect her, as a victim of crime, to just be like: "Well, at least I survived!" and not express anger and resentment at the situation?

But I mean if we want to put it in terms of reality, the best case example is to see Jason as a victim of a seriously traumatic event, such as aggravated sexual assault/assault/attempted murder. And in some cases, those survivors are angry at more than just the perpetrator: they might be angry at the justice system (which Jason is) in the event that the perpetrator spends no time in jail or that they have to be further re-victimized during the court process; (and thus seeing no "vengeance" or justice for the crimes committed against them) Or at family members/parents/loved ones who they feel sided with the perpetrator (ie. When I covered an inquiry into childhood sexual abuse, in many cases, parents would often think the child was lying if the perpetrator was an authority figure -- that could certainly cause some anger and hostility) Would you say in those cases these victims are "whining and complaining" or perhaps have some justifiable anger?

(And as a sidenote, even though, yes, we as readers know that Batman doesn't side with the Joker, but Jason seems to feel because Batman hasn't done anything about the Joker problem, that he is basically condoning him and allowing more murders to happen.)


It's hard to look at Jason's case based in reality because it's so fantastical, but if you're asking whether I think that Jason's anger is justified, well, I can certainly understand it and sympathize with it; even his anger at Bruce.

And no, I don't think Jason should be jumping for joy that he's alive again -- would you expect that of any other fictional (or real) victim of crime? It's kind of like saying, "God, you need to just get over it. At least you are alive. You should be happy about that. Stop your whining and complaining that the justice system is flawed, that your perpetrator went free and continues to harm others. You just need to find a healthier outlet!"

[kurenai-tenka.livejournal.com]

Ahh I love this reply. <3

In real life people sometimes do tell victims of traumatic events etc to 'just get over it', and it's incredibly gross when they do. Of course this is fictional, but still.

[benicio127]

Oh yeah, I know they do, which is really sad and gross and offensive, I agree. :(

(And thanks ^-^ )

[aaron_bourque]

I'm not saying he needs to get over it. I'm saying his method of coping with the trauma is "incredibly gross" to me. Also, he's completely wrong.

[kurenai-tenka.livejournal.com]

Ah, just to clarify, I was directing the 'incredibly gross' comment at the people who say things like that in real life, not at you. :)

Saying that his coping method could use some work is totally fair, heh. It's certainly not working, that's for sure.... though at this point he's pretty much exacerbated the situation beyond all reason.

[whitesycamore]

Batman didn't avenge Jason's death, and yet Jason is alive again. Thus, we can draw at least one of two conclusions. A) Vengeance is pointless. B) Lack of vengeance leads to resurrections.

Rather inductive reasoning you've got there!

Please don't be my research partner.

[pepperspray101]

Please don't be my research partner.

I LOL'd...

[airawyn]

[salinea]

OH SNAP!

[darkknightjrk]

Well, you also have to remember that Jason Todd is pretty much legitimately nuts at this point.

[benicio127]

There has been some really great thoughts brought up on Tumblr about this, I'm just gonna point to "airawyn's comments, because she said some really great things.

I do think that Bruce loves all of his children, I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced he loves them *equally.* Maybe airawyn put it best when she said.... he loves them differently. But I definitely see where Jason is coming from.

Though... I'm not entirely sure about Dick. I mean, given everything that happened in continuity, I could see why Dick isn't a fan of Jason -- but I also see their relationship as being a lot more complex than that. Them both having a relationship prior to Jason's death and Dick feeling guilt over Jason's death (and return, too, probably, in that he hasn't been able to help him, because Dick helps everybody -- he hasn't given up on Damian, he didn't give up on Rose, etc.) So I just... don't think it's quite so simplistic. Maybe Winick really couldn't get into it in-depth in the interview....

But I think a lot of this makes Bruce, Dick and Jason very human -- I know families where the parents love the firstborn the most -- even when that firstborn has done some terrible things (in and out of jail, domestic abuse).

I'm glad Winick has more stories to tell about Jason because I certainly want to keep reading them. When I read his line saying that he couldn't say anything, I immediately thought: what a tease! I desperately want Jason to interact with the female members of the Batfamily: Babs, Steph and Cass. I don't think those relationships would be simplistic, either, and I really, really, really, really want to see him talk to Barbara. Can I stress that enough? Really, really, really, really, really, really, reaaaaaaaally want to see this happen. (I think it might be time to send in another letter to DC about this.... hahah)

And there's others I'd like to see him interact with, Alfred, Talia again, and Mia Dearden, definitely. I'd like for Mia to call him out on his bullshit and, given everything that's happened to her post-C4J (with her claiming Ollie's an enlightened hypocrite when he stopped her from killing the Electrocutioner) and at least get her to admit that, yeah, she does understand what he's talking about (since Arrows do have a different sense of morality than Bats, moreso Mia and Roy than, say, Connor) And that I think they are.... the only two (? I can't think of any others off the top of my head) street kids turned sidekicks, they have this sort of bond of understanding (plus Ollie's abandonment of her post C4J....) and that she doesn't represent the Bat and is therefore not *one of them* in Jason's eyes.

Whoops, this comment is way longer than I intended it to be, haha

[whitesycamore]

But I think a lot of this makes Bruce, Dick and Jason very human -- I know families where the parents love the firstborn the most -- even when that firstborn has done some terrible things (in and out of jail, domestic abuse).

Wait, is this some widely known thing where firstborns in particular tend to be favoured? Because most of the 'favourite' kids I know are younger siblings.

I still don't really feel that there's much evidence that Bruce loved Dick any more than Jason, at least pre-resurrection. He did the insta-adoption/guardianship thing with both of them, which while creepy, speaks to pretty strong feelings on his part. He lunged wildly at Joker with a machine gun in ADITF and did have serious intentions to kill him.

And - and - Jason is the plucky street kid who made Batman laugh in Crime Alley at his sheer audacity! Dude, come on now, that is powerful. But I absolutely believe that Jason might think it's true because he's so out of the loop, and also seems to have seriously distorted emotional thinking on that front - which I think might be because he's projecting his mother's betrayal onto the world somehow.

And on a personal level, I just don't get someone liking Dick more than Jason - although I heard it *can* happen... :P

[benicio127]

Wait, is this some widely known thing where firstborns in particular tend to be favoured?

Why do you think Jan Brady gets so jealous about Marcia? xD MARCIA MARCIA MARCIA

And hey, I only said I wasn't *entirely* convinced Bruce doesn't love his sons equally --- I can be persuaded! ;)

[whitesycamore]

Idk? I never watched the Brady bunch. But I thought it was supposed to be because of personal qualities rather than some magical quality of first-born... ness.

If Dick is the favourite, surely it would be because of his (vastly overrated) tendencies towards chirpiness and er, not being murderously bitter and angry all the time? :P

[icon_uk]

It's perhaps to do with the fact that the first born is the parents "first attempt" so to speak, they may make more allowances for them, make, if not excuses then give them a bit of leeway. (Why, no I'm not the first born, why do you ask? :) ).

They are also the ones that become the first focus of the parents attention and unlike later kids, where the attention has to be shared, they get it ALL probably for longer than any kids further down the line

In families with titles or a heritage, the eldest was traditionally also the one who would inherit and received the necessary training to do so.

[whitesycamore]

In my experience the first born is the one parents freak out over trying to do everything perfectly - I'm quite glad I had my sister to beat the path first and lower expectations, as it were. :D

[icon_uk]

Yeah, though doesn't that sort of match up with Bruce?

Dick is the one he had the highest expectations of because he was the one he worried about most. The fact that Dick managed to exceed those expectations is down to him.

Bruce relaxed a little more with Jason, because after the first one, the rest would be easy, right?

Tim, well, he came pre-raised to an extent the others did.

In some senses, Dick is the one Bruce put the most work into and thus might be proudest of, in his heart of hearts.

[whitesycamore]

Oh, I have no doubt he's proudest of Dick, although I think Dick's successes are largely in spite of Bruce and not because of him. I don't think that's the same thing as loving him the most though.

It's hard to judge Bruce's relationship with Jason, because it was so tempestuous. Early on he was very jazzed about him in that "I have a new kitten" way, and then of course Jason became very unhappy about something or other (it seemed like something was going wrong way before Gloria) and their relationship deteriorated.

It's sad; Jason was the kid who needed the most from Bruce, but he just didn't seem to realise that at all. That he could just scoop him up off the streets and take him home without anticipating a whole ton of baggage that Dick didn't have is one of the... incompatibly bronze-age elements of Jason's story that just don't make sense in the modern era.

[icon_uk]

Agreed, they never seemed to know quite what to do with Jason 2.0 once they had him (other than try to get rid of him in record time, but that's more an external/creative thing than an internal/story one)

Jason 1.0 was a little vanilla personality-wise, and a little bit much of a Dick-clone in origin, but with his background, he made a certain amount of sense in terms of the Bat-verse of the time, he had the same skills and motivation as Dick and if one glossed over that, he was a competent trainee hero.

Jason 2.0 could have been a great character, and in many ways could be seen as a precursor to Damian. A scrappy, argumentative, overly-aggressive street-fighting Robin that Batman has to rein in rather than teach to fight, and had to deal more with teaching him when NOT to fight. But they seemed to want to have elements of Jason 1.0 still in there and that made an uneven character.

The retcons since his death making him more angsty and more of a street punk haven't helped. Him smoking as Robin being the first on that springs to mind, that just never works for me as an image, it's trying too hard to make him a "bad boy".

[icon_uk]

He did the insta-adoption/guardianship thing with both of them, which while creepy, speaks to pretty strong feelings on his part.

Dick became his ward*, Jason became his son. If anyone had a right to be miffed by the comparison it would surely be Dick, though he really wasn't (because he's a nice guy) and Bruce and he had their discussion about that at Donna's wedding, and cleared the air effectively.

* Various contuity quirks to one side about when Dick became adopted. Zero Hour changed Dick's origin so he was insta-adopted too, but that was more or less instantly ignored in the Gotham Knights story where he's adopted as an adult.

[whitesycamore]

I know, I just couldn't think of the word for "to make someone become your ward," and I didn't think it was worth specifying the legal differences between Bruce's relationship with Dick and Jason, since emotionally they're pretty much the same.

[arysteia]

My experience as both an eldest child, and as a teacher and counsellor of gifted and annoyed young people, suggests that both are true but in very different ways, and it depends in large part on perspective.

The eldest, as icon_uk points out, gets all the attention and is a focus of hopes and dreams, until the youngers come along. He then makes the classic younger sibling complaint that that means the eldest gets more leeway. The classic eldest sibling response would be that, au contraire, they have to obey a very strict set of rules that actually loosen up by the time the youngers come along. Battles all fought as it were. (That was certainly my experience.)

What is often objectively true, is that the eldest spends all their formative years with adults, with no other children around. This tends to make them a) much better at polite and acceptable interaction with adults (since they'll otherwise be banished from social occasions) and b) much more dependent on, and willing to seek, adult approval. Youngers get their company and approval elsewhere. I think that's Dick down to the ground.

What you identify as 'favourite' staus for the youngest is more likely, imho, to be what I would call 'indulged' status. They seem to get away with more (whether because parental/societal attitudes really have changed, eg I used to get a hiding with a wooden spoon, my youngest sibling got time-out; or because parents are now exhausted/time-poor, eg my mother was divorced and raising four kids on a single income, rather than married and a stay at home mother to one or two).

Interestingly, though, while I point at the youngest and cry foul, and she points at me and cries foul even louder, neither of us ever point at the unfortunate two in between. And they point at both of us! I think we have to examine Jason as a classic 'middle child', not as the youngest. From his perspective, he's neither perfect like Dick nor indulged like Tim. I find it pretty funny that Tim then experiences that same displacement vis a vis Damian. And reacts to it in the classic manner.

[whitesycamore]

That seems like a rather one-size fits all approach to the batfamily. I'm not sure we can apply stereotypical sibling dynamics to the bats, because for a start they have never really been all together at one time interacting as siblings; they aren't one large family, they are a series of dyads. I think we're so used to thinking of the bats collectively as a group that we forget they don't actually interact that way for the most part (ok, Dick, Tim and Damian have had a few Brady Bunch moments).

What you identify as 'favourite' staus for the youngest is more likely, imho, to be what I would call 'indulged' status. They seem to get away with more (whether because parental/societal attitudes really have changed, eg I used to get a hiding with a wooden spoon, my youngest sibling got time-out; or because parents are now exhausted/time-poor, eg my mother was divorced and raising four kids on a single income, rather than married and a stay at home mother to one or two).

As a youngest child (ok, only youngest of two, which changes things considerably), I resent your implication that eldest sibling favouritism is somehow genuine while younger siblings are only "indulged!" :P In my experience personality has a far larger effect on filial relationships than birth order; my sister was my mother's clear favourite because she was very similar to her in personality. I have to wonder if this in part a self-fulfilling prophecy though, as my mother was the eldest sibling of two girls and seemed to project a LOT of her relationship with her younger sister on to me and my sister. My mother identified with my older sister, and because of that she was far more indulged than I.

I think I was my father's favourite because I guess he thought of me as more like him? But he didn't have a whole lot to do with us while we were growing up, besides sort of glowering in the background and complaining if we left stray Lego pieces around. I think not having him around during my adolescence might be the real reason I felt less pressure to be "perfect" than my sister did in her early teens. He was certainly an obsessive perfectionist, and I think my mother worried us girls over that in order to please him.

[runespoor]

Not to totally deviate the topic with my "I ship Bruce/Jason"-colored goggles or anything, but...

He lunged wildly at Joker with a machine gun in ADITF and did have serious intentions to kill him.
And that lasted after that, as well. Knightfall and Scarecrow using fear gas on Batman, making him see Jason get killed, come to mind.



or:





Plus, come on, they were FATED TO MEET.

[icon_uk]

To be honest I'm not quite sure what these pages bring to the table.

One is from the POV of the, to at least some extent, unbalanced Jason Todd (Who is also shouting complete and other rubbish about Bruce somehow letting a kid he'd never met find out about his ID, when Tim didn't deduce that Batman was Bruce Wayne, he deduced that ROBIN was Dick Grayson and worked out from that.) and the other POV is that of Neron, a liar and manipulator.

Have to say though, that I thought that Bruce turning down the chance to revive Jason was a singularly powerful and affecting moment, he DOES want his son back, but Neron was obviously not to be trusted and the "Monkey's Paw" scenario might well apply. (and that bit about the sound at the end still gives me chills, that's some effective horror there)

[runespoor]

The first is about a speech that Bruce apparently made to Jason, about if Jason became Robin he'd be the "light to his darkness" or some such.

The second is that Neron thought that Bruce would be more likely to try and revive Jason than, say, his parents.

[icon_uk]

Ah gotcha, sorry (brain and comprehension not quite lined up this AM). Yes, I take your point, that first one IS a little... umm... well... errr... suspect in that regard isn't it.*

The Neron one is interesting in that regard, perhaps with more layers to it; If the Waynes came back, would Bruce stop being Batman? If Jason came back, Bruce would probably continue, except now he'd be Neron's pawn, which would gain Neron more one wonders..?

( * Honestly, I have much the same reaction to the "Bat-Family-analysis" tapes in the Gotham Knights story arc that we eventually find out are made by Bruce Wayne, particularly the one where he waxes rhapsodic about the young Dick Grayson, and how he's "full of grace", which is a very odd choice of words IMHO, it just seems, somehow I dunno... skeevy.)

[runespoor]

Pfff, totally alright.

About the Neron one, I wondered if perhaps Neron thought Bruce wouldn't be able to even conceive of his parents being alive again. After all, if Bruce's parents had never died, Bruce's life as it is wouldn't exist.

(about the "full of grace": I can see how it can seem skeevy, but given that it's about an aerialist, it never strikes me as such. It's a choice of words that I find right somehow, evocative and describing precisely what I imagine Dick to be like.)

[icon_uk]

If he'd said "graceful" then yes, it'd still be an odd word choice for a father to describe their son, but more literally correct.

"Full of grace" on the other hand has another, religious, context to me as a Christian, since it's the second line of the "Hail Mary", the primary prayer of worship to the Blessed Virgin.

"Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with Thee... etc"

In a religious context, "Grace" doesn't mean "elegance of movement", it means "a spontaneous, unmerited gift of divine favour from God". Whilst this, in certain ways might describe the effect Dick had on Bruce, I'm not sure it's best articulated like that, least of all by Bruce himself!

As for the Neron bit, it didn't seem to stop Ra's Al Ghul from tyring it, but I never remotely liked that concept. The Lazarus Pit could revive the NEWLY dead, up until that moment in "Tower of Babel" I don't think there was ever a hint that it could revive the LONG dead.

[runespoor]

True; but I find it an interesting expression all the same. The Bat-analysis files, after all, were the files were Bruce was trying to be as analytical as possible, so he may have used that expression there while he wouldn't have elsewhere; whether it's justified is an issue of how objective Bruce might or might not be. (I mean: the Bat-files were thinly disguised metatext, but I think they worl because they're presented as Bruce's analysis and not as omniscient narrative.)

up until that moment in "Tower of Babel" I don't think there was ever a hint that it could revive the LONG dead
And since that nothing happens in Tower of Babel, there's still no hint. Just a plot of Ra's to divert Bruce's attention and Bruce not wanting to take the risk of seeing his parents as zombies.

THAT IS A GIANT STONE PENIS WITH A MAN'S FACE ON IT

[01d55]

53 comments on this post and I have yet to see any mention of Stonefacecock.

Re: THAT IS A GIANT STONE PENIS WITH A MAN'S FACE ON IT

[icon_uk]

We try not to mention the stonefacecock in the room....

Yeah, that actually surprised me too

Re: THAT IS A GIANT STONE PENIS WITH A MAN'S FACE ON IT

[whitesycamore]

Really? I find the giant stonefacecock in my room makes a great conversation piece!

Re: THAT IS A GIANT STONE PENIS WITH A MAN'S FACE ON IT

[salinea]

Bah. Who hasn't seen a giant Stonefacecock before?

Re: THAT IS A GIANT STONE PENIS WITH A MAN'S FACE ON IT

[fifthie]

In a broader sense, we cannot post - we cannot comment - we cannot boner this thread. The stone dicks, faced and unfaced, have bonered it, far beyond our poor power to add or detract.

[janegray]

I'm surprised Damian hates Jason so much. I had assumed that he and Jason would get along pretty well.

[icon_uk]

I imagine that in Damian's mind Jason is both hideously undisciplined AND disrespectful to his father, both are traits Damian despises.

And of coruse, the first/last time they met, Jason blew away a goodly chunk of Damians internal organs with a machine gun, including severing his spinal column. That's the sort of thing that can lead to the bearing of grudges.

[janegray]

...I had successfully managed to purge the memory of Battle for the Cowl from my mind D:

But your first point makes sense.

[icon_uk]

Not Battle for the Cowl, it was at the end of the Red Hood and Scarlet story that Grant Morrison wrote in "Batman and Robin".

[janegray]

The one who shot and paralyzed Damian in "Batman and Robin" wasn't Jason, it was the Flamingo. Scarlet and Jason then killed Flamingo before he could finish Damian off.

[icon_uk]

I stand humbled, abashed and corrected.

Thanks!

[janegray]

My Jason-fu stands tall and proud!

Metaphorically, of course ^_^

[icon_uk]

I'd reply to that, but bringing "dick" in any context to the discussion wouldn't really help would it?

[whitesycamore]

They are also both hypocrites, and hypocrites, much like pedants, tend to conflict with each other a lot.

Incidentally, Damian was shot by Flamingo, not Jason ;)

[icon_uk]

I'd imply that Flamingo was only there because of Jason, but that would be proving your latter point rather more conclusively than seems required!

[fifthie]

I pride myself on not giving credit when it is due to people who suck,

but UGH YOU WIN THIS ROUND WINICK, that was actually pretty good I guess.

...with the usual caveat that the reason Batman doesn't kill the Joker is he knows the Joker would just come back, probably with superstrength, or maybe vampire powers.

[proteus_lives]

Love that animated one. It's like an anime opening.

And that's a good thing.

[icon_uk]

It IS very... "dynamic", isn't it? :)