I hope, if I have one redeeming feature...

[icon_uk]

it's that I can give credit where credit is due. I'm not a fan of much of Devin Grayson's output, but she can write a darn good character scene, Jim Lee tends to leave me unimpressed, but he can draw a darn pretty Dynamic Duo from time to time.

And so, in the interests of fairness and honesty I have to say that I liked this inteview up at newsarama

In which Judd Winick speaks about his forthcoming arc on Batman and Robin....

Nrama: But this Batman isn't Bruce. This is Dick. What are Jason's feelings about him?
Winick: Jason hates Dick Grayson. He's the good son; he's the one that worked out; he's the one that "Dad" loves best. For me, there's a philosophy behind Jason and Dick that I haven't had a chance to play out fully. I don't think it's going to play out in this story, because it's probably not the place for it. But I don't mind putting the philosophy out there:

One thing that haunts Jason is that he thinks if Dick Grayson who was the one that was about to die, Batman would have saved him.
And worse, if Dick Grayson was murdered, Jason knows that Batman would have killed Joker. He knows that in his heart.

The dark, dark thing for Jason is that he doesn't feel Bruce's refusal to take revenge on the Joker is just about Batman's morals and code that he won't break. He thinks it's about him. He thinks that if Dick Grayson was the one who was murdered, Batman would have definitely killed Joker.

Nrama: So what do Dick and Damian think of Jason as they are forced to kind of team-up with him in this story?

Well, you'll need to go to the interview page to read the answer to that, it's only fair to Newsarama. :)

That's a nice summation of Jason Todd's feelings for Bruce and Dick, and expressed more clearly than I think it has been shown in the comics (IMHO of course). Especially the notion that Jason is convinced that if Dick had died, Bruce WOULD have killed the Joker (The events in "Infinite Crisis" where Bruce pulls a gun on Alex Luthor sort of support that, depending on how you read the original scene) This actually makes me want to read the issues to see how it plays out. Kudos to Mr Winick for that.

For context, the cute, how Jason probably views the role of Robin (These were designed by one of my favourite artists Andy Price for Lego Batman T-shirt that alas, they only made in child sizes, because I would wear the hell out of any of them!)




For fun, the sublime, the history of the Robins, in animated form



Which originated here

And for legality, the ridiculous, in the form of a "Context is for the weak" from "Batman: The Cult"

Comments

[benicio127]

Ummmmm... how would Jason know all of this if no one has ever told him? Because no one, including Bruce, actually has. Ever. Soo.... since he can't read minds....

[icon_uk]

Without wanting to be "that guy" again, Jason hasn't been in an information vacuum since his return. He's had information from Talia (filtered I grant you, but still, it's a start), the newspaper reports we've seen him reading (when he learned about Tim's existence and him checking out Batman's confrontation with Joker at the UN is a matter of public record) and personal observations (Jason has been trained in observation and deduction by Bruce), as well as his knowledge of Bruces mindset from experience.

He's also interacted with Bruce, the Joker, Dick, Tim, even Donna for a while, he should have picked up on what went on after his death from those experiences.

[benicio127]

But.... would those news reports say that Superman stopped Batman from killing the Joker? I mean... only the two of them know that. And only the three of them knew about the helicopter scenario. I don't think anyone else was actually privy to that information except those three. (Does Dick even know about what happened in the helicopter and at the UN? Bruce didn't even tell him Jason was dead! And that's Dick we're talking about; the closest person to him, apart from Alfred, Clark and maybe Selina.)

And simply because he's interacted with all of them still doesn't mean that they've told him. Because they haven't. Certainly not in any canon scene I've read. Other than Tim saying, "no one could forget you," and Jason being in the Batcave and seeing his Robin memorial. I think it's kind of like asking the character to be a mind-reader when he doesn't have those abilities. But how is he supposed to glean that Bruce did try to kill the Joker from that?

[icon_uk]

I think that Bruce did eventually talk to Dick about it, and certainly Dick has known what the loss of Jason did to Bruce and could articulate that better than most.

That said, I see you point and now more than ever I want to see Jason encounter Alfred.... perhaps after a little chat with Superman about what went down during the helicopter flight.

[benicio127]

I think that Bruce did eventually talk to Dick about it, and certainly Dick has known what the loss of Jason did to Bruce and could articulate that better than most

Yep, he did... but he still hasn't told Jason about that. (Bruce not telling him, Bruce shutting down, even how Bruce treated Dick post-Jason's death, which was really a lot of hurtful stuff -- I'm thinking about the Marv Wolfman written scene)

That said, I see you point and now more than ever I want to see Jason encounter Alfred.... perhaps after a little chat with Superman about what went down during the helicopter flight.

So do I. I don't think Jason would have anything against Alfred and hopefully Alfred could at least give him a different perspective of which to see things from.

[icon_uk]

I firmly believe that Alfred could do more to get Jason past his obsessions with some well modulated disappointment than Bruce or Dick can with anger or reasoning.

"I expected better from you Master Jason." should stop any member of the Batfamily (even the estranged ones) in their tracks and make them rethink their course of action.

[aaron_bourque]

None of this matters because the simple fact is this:

Batman didn't avenge Jason's death, and yet Jason is alive again. Thus, we can draw at least one of two conclusions. A) Vengeance is pointless. B) Lack of vengeance leads to resurrections.

In other words, shut up Jason Todd.

[benicio127]

Yeah, OK...... . Welp, I pretty much hope Jason never shuts up, so there you go.

[aaron_bourque]

Think about it this way. If you died and were brought back to life, which would you do:

1) Whine and complain and kill people about how your death was never avenged

or

2) Go "Whoah, hey! I'm alive again! Yay!"

[nevermore999]

I'm not the hugest fan of Jason or anytrhing (I like him okay)

but

I'm pretty sure that having your brains beaten out by a crowbar (while Mom watches impassively) and getting blown up while your mother watches AS A YOUNG TEENAGER and then after digging yourself out of your grave and suffering memory loss and general brain trauma, then some pretty weird circumstances (living with villains who actively encourage your negative feelings about the situation) and then finding out the dude who not only killed you, but your mother is still at large and killing people and nobody is doing shit to stop him.

Well.

I'm sure you'd just "get over it".

Like it or not, Jason brings up some pretty legit issues about Bruce occasionally even if he's a terror and doing bad shit. And I can't really blame him for being mentally unstable and blaming Bruce for certain things after what he's been through.

Then again, I just generally side against Bruce, who treats his kids like shit. All the time. And never stops. So I don't mind in the least if one of them gives him hell, even if some of the reasons are specious.

(I probably won't reply to whatever you post back, I'm busy right now and just don't actually care about arguing about Jason. Just had to reply once for some reason, in a weird mood.)

[aaron_bourque]

I'm not saying he'd get over it. I'm saying he's obsessing over it to an unhealthy degree, even by Batman family standards.

I just generally side against Bruce, who treats his kids like shit. All the time. And never stops.

. . .

. . . no.

[whitesycamore]

Yes.

Count me as one of the people who thinks Jason has semi-legitimate reasons to feel the way he does.

Even someone who thinks Jason is useless should admit that perhaps then Bruce shouldn't have used him. Because that's what Jason thinks happened, and he is at least half right.

[aaron_bourque]

. . . who thinks Jason was useless?

[benicio127]

A number of people in comics fandom tend to perpetuate this, along with the idea that he was hated by everyone and therefore, that's why he was killed off. Sadly, someone saying "Jason was useless" as Robin or whatever is not a rare comment.

[aaron_bourque]

But . . . that's not why he was hated. And technically him being hated wasn't why he was killed off.

[benicio127]

Well, what I'm saying is those are the ideas that comics fandom perpetuates, and I'm not saying that they're based in reality. But they're still perpetuated.

[benicio127]

That's a rather strange question you're asking me and is kind of difficult to answer as I can't die and come back. (And I mean comic books are pretty much fantasy stories).

Jason is still a victim of a seriously traumatic event. Looking at it this way: when Barbara was shot and heard that Bruce was standing and laughing with her perpetrator, she was angry at him (Oracle: Year One) and justifiably so based on the version of events that she had. Whether you like the Killing Joke or not, it happened and Bruce may have stood there laughing with the Joker -- the guy who had only recently shot her in the spine, degraded her and degraded her father. Would you expect her, as a victim of crime, to just be like: "Well, at least I survived!" and not express anger and resentment at the situation?

But I mean if we want to put it in terms of reality, the best case example is to see Jason as a victim of a seriously traumatic event, such as aggravated sexual assault/assault/attempted murder. And in some cases, those survivors are angry at more than just the perpetrator: they might be angry at the justice system (which Jason is) in the event that the perpetrator spends no time in jail or that they have to be further re-victimized during the court process; (and thus seeing no "vengeance" or justice for the crimes committed against them) Or at family members/parents/loved ones who they feel sided with the perpetrator (ie. When I covered an inquiry into childhood sexual abuse, in many cases, parents would often think the child was lying if the perpetrator was an authority figure -- that could certainly cause some anger and hostility) Would you say in those cases these victims are "whining and complaining" or perhaps have some justifiable anger?

(And as a sidenote, even though, yes, we as readers know that Batman doesn't side with the Joker, but Jason seems to feel because Batman hasn't done anything about the Joker problem, that he is basically condoning him and allowing more murders to happen.)


It's hard to look at Jason's case based in reality because it's so fantastical, but if you're asking whether I think that Jason's anger is justified, well, I can certainly understand it and sympathize with it; even his anger at Bruce.

And no, I don't think Jason should be jumping for joy that he's alive again -- would you expect that of any other fictional (or real) victim of crime? It's kind of like saying, "God, you need to just get over it. At least you are alive. You should be happy about that. Stop your whining and complaining that the justice system is flawed, that your perpetrator went free and continues to harm others. You just need to find a healthier outlet!"

[kurenai-tenka.livejournal.com]

Ahh I love this reply. <3

In real life people sometimes do tell victims of traumatic events etc to 'just get over it', and it's incredibly gross when they do. Of course this is fictional, but still.

[benicio127]

Oh yeah, I know they do, which is really sad and gross and offensive, I agree. :(

(And thanks ^-^ )

[aaron_bourque]

I'm not saying he needs to get over it. I'm saying his method of coping with the trauma is "incredibly gross" to me. Also, he's completely wrong.

[kurenai-tenka.livejournal.com]

Ah, just to clarify, I was directing the 'incredibly gross' comment at the people who say things like that in real life, not at you. :)

Saying that his coping method could use some work is totally fair, heh. It's certainly not working, that's for sure.... though at this point he's pretty much exacerbated the situation beyond all reason.

[whitesycamore]

Batman didn't avenge Jason's death, and yet Jason is alive again. Thus, we can draw at least one of two conclusions. A) Vengeance is pointless. B) Lack of vengeance leads to resurrections.

Rather inductive reasoning you've got there!

Please don't be my research partner.

[pepperspray101]

Please don't be my research partner.

I LOL'd...

[airawyn]

[salinea]

OH SNAP!