perletwo: barbara gordon (dangerous librarian)
[personal profile] perletwo posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Really? Nobody's posted anything substantial from Birds of Prey 11 yet? Just the bits and pieces of continuity dovetailing with Batgirl?

Well. Let's fix that, shall we? 3 pages of Huntress and Catman doing some dovetailing of their own.

The setup: Huntress is chasing jewel thieves ("Of course there was a jewel heist. It's Gotham. And it's Thursday." ILU, Gail) who've shot a guard and taken a hostage - a severely asthmatic hostage with no inhaler who's a prime candidate for death by misadventure. She's slugging it out with one thug when Catman shows up, looking to revisit that, umm, whatever they had back in Birds of Prey v1 #106-107, I think? Hel maintains she's busy, so Catman agrees to help her hunt.

They find the second thug, and Catman loses points for hitting Rickie's pregnant girlfriend (in fairness, she was leaping at him claws-out at the time), but gains points for getting wounded while taking Rickie down and eliciting the name of a third thug; the fourth crew member, the client, none of them knew.





They track down the last of the thugs, and the hostage.



After a little bluffing, Catman admits it.



"And this one time is forever," text box continues. Deadshot chides Catman for setting up the elaborate caper instead of just candy and flowers, but Tom says he needed to hook Hel on his fight for redemption.


Thoughts?

Date: 2011-04-17 02:31 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Helena Bartinelli may not be the World's Greatest Detective, but she's sharp. If you have a near-desperate drive to get Batman's approval, you have to be.

Thomas Blake thought this scenario would be a good idea to get Helena to help him. Jeez Louise. I think all my respect for this character just withered and died.

Date: 2011-04-17 02:40 am (UTC)
wonderwomanhero: (Default)
From: [personal profile] wonderwomanhero
HELENA. PLEEEEEEASE REGAIN PANTS.

Date: 2011-04-17 02:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] djt2445.livejournal.com
I think you're misreading the ending.

Catman -knew- Helena would be always carrying a "What if".

He had to show her that he was -beyond- redemption in order to free her to love someone else.

He isn't trying to hook her on his redemption, he's trying to show her that he's -beyond- redemption so that she can move on. Hence why Deadshot called it a 'triple cross'. I think you missed out in not showing that page where Catman says "I had to show her. That I was beyond that. There's no room in her life for whatever lousy thing I am now."

Date: 2011-04-17 02:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] djt2445.livejournal.com
Eh, no, Thomas never had any realistic expectation of fooling Helena with -that- one. What he was after was really to get Helena to move on past him, and he succeeded- but the OP didn't include the next page to give context to why Catman pulled the con.

Date: 2011-04-17 03:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] djt2445.livejournal.com
Hmmm. Actually, given the ending, clearly Thomas Blake -needed- that closure.

He's the one who set everything up.

Keeping in mind that he's recently been smashed around with having all his family ties torn apart in many different ways, I'd venture to guess he's cutting -every- potential tie that might have to do with family or love. I don't think it's really all that out of line with what's going on with his arc in Secret Six, especially with certain revelations about his parents, and what happened to his son.

Date: 2011-04-17 03:54 am (UTC)
freezer: (Default)
From: [personal profile] freezer
It makes a lot more sense when you view it as the screwed-up actions of an even more screwed-up person. Of course it doesn't make sense to us: We're (presumably) sane, well-adjusted and haven't just finished up our own Trauma Conga Line.

Date: 2011-04-17 05:50 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] ebailey140

"On one end is Captain Marvel, Superman, guys like that. On the other, the Joker. Luthor. We're both stuck in the big, stupid gray area in the middle."

Um, Helena, I'm pretty sure your fellow Birds and Bat Family don't consider you or themselves in the gray area. Sure, there's Selina and Jason, but the rest...

Date: 2011-04-17 06:06 am (UTC)
mullon: (Azula)
From: [personal profile] mullon
If I was Huntress, I would be very tempted to kick him in the face for that "I don't know where my soul is. Everything I see is black." line.

Date: 2011-04-17 07:11 am (UTC)
swatkat: knight - er, morgana - in shining underwear (avatar: crazyface azula)
From: [personal profile] swatkat
I enjoyed the issue, but god Catman is a drama queen.

Date: 2011-04-17 07:31 am (UTC)
richardak: (Default)
From: [personal profile] richardak
I'm not sure of that at all. I think Helena is definitely in that gray area, and that she is generally perceived that way.

Date: 2011-04-17 08:34 am (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
So if it's all over between him and Helena, that leaves an opportunity for Floyd to move in on him, right? Although I guess Floyd's not very redemption-y.

Date: 2011-04-17 11:11 am (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
I know we all joke around about subtext a lot here, but I really do think that the Catman/Deadshot UST is being written intentionally and is supposed to be A Thing. Whether it will ever become a Plot-Significant Thing is another matter though.

It'd be interesting to see it treated as more than just a few sly winks to the audience every so often.

Date: 2011-04-17 11:24 am (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
Yeah, and even Selina's only off-white. Pale gray at worst.

Date: 2011-04-17 12:49 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
"Of course there was a jewel heist. It's Gotham. And it's Thursday."

Actually, I'd kill for a Gotham where that was the case anymore, it's all murder-murder-murder these days. If there's no body count they don't even bother sending a cop.

Date: 2011-04-17 12:57 pm (UTC)
salinea: (this way)
From: [personal profile] salinea
This.

Date: 2011-04-17 02:26 pm (UTC)
rdfox: Joker asking Tim Drake, "'Sup?" from Paul Dini's "Slay Ride" (Default)
From: [personal profile] rdfox
Personally, I like the idea of the Gotham underworld deciding to set up a rotation of themed days.

Murder Monday, Terroristic Threat Tuesday, We-All-Rest Wednesday (so they can catch up on each other's latest hijinx at the LCS!), Theft Thursday, Kidnapping Friday, Smash-and-Grab Saturday, and Extortion Sunday.

Just so that they can all be coordinated and not intrude on each others' business. "Dammit, Falcone, how the hell am I supposed to rob the bank when you're blowing it up for not paying its protection money?!"

Date: 2011-04-17 02:34 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Robin Joker Another day....)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Aces!

Though you did forget that Gotham staple, "Tied up Tuesday", named so in honour of all sidekicks great and small... :)

Date: 2011-04-17 02:38 pm (UTC)
rdfox: Joker asking Tim Drake, "'Sup?" from Paul Dini's "Slay Ride" (Default)
From: [personal profile] rdfox
*grins* Yes, but then I'd have to also get meta and put in "Fridging Friday." Or maybe it could just be "Felony Friday," as a catch-all for major crimes they don't have specified on other days.

Date: 2011-04-17 02:45 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Yes, I like the ides of "Freestyle Felony Friday" where it's basically anything goes. Like Dress Down Friday for supervillains!

Date: 2011-04-17 03:53 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
I didn't think this was a very good issue. I enjoyed the sexual tension between Huntress and Catman I guess, but the plot was dull and flimsy.

And does Gail Simone really need to work the threat of rape into every issue she writes ever? She's actually one of the worst writers for shoe-horning the possibility of sexual violence into pretty much any situation where a woman is in peril. Most of the time it just feels grimy and unnecessary.

Date: 2011-04-17 05:07 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
I guess I can't blame them too much for taking their cues from every single awful goddamn TV procedural.

Wait, yes I can.

Date: 2011-04-17 05:07 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] ebailey140
I'm not sure of that at all. I think Helena is definitely in that gray area, and that she is generally perceived that way.

Sure, she thinks that they should be more lethal with the villains, but she still plays by Bruce's rules. She doesn't cross the line.

Compare to Selina, who splattered the original Black Mask's brains all over the room.

Criminal family? Let's see... Steph, Cass, Damian, Wendy... Speaking of whom, Helena's not the only one in the Bat Family that Bruce has had to prevent killing a bad guy. Had to talk Steph out of it her first time out, and Cass's and Damian's histories... Also, you're more likely to wind up in an Intensive Care ward after a fight with Steph than with Helena, given Steph's explosive approach to crime fighting, but Bruce is the only one who seems to notice. "She was a variable I could barely control, and she always will be." Cuteness goes a long way. :)

Hell, Tim has been out-graying Helena, the last couple of years. :)

Date: 2011-04-17 05:14 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] ebailey140
Agreed. I'd hoped we'd seen the last of that outfit after Cass insulted it. I mean, really, when your bad costume can make even Cassandra Cain verbose, you should probably listen to the fashion advice. :)

Speaking of Batgirls and fashion, what's with Misfit insulting purple as Steph's color? If Charlie wants to be the Huntress when she grows up, doesn't that mean wearing purple?

Date: 2011-04-17 05:40 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] ebailey140
I know we all joke around about subtext a lot here, but I really do think that the Catman/Deadshot UST is being written intentionally and is supposed to be A Thing. Whether it will ever become a Plot-Significant Thing is another matter though.

It'd be interesting to see it treated as more than just a few sly winks to the audience every so often.


Considering how many years Harley and Ivy have been doing this routine, and how far it's sometimes gone, like the Elseworlds with Lex running a record company, and Harley flirting with redhead women, in general ("Oracuddles"), without ever going beyond the sly winks at the audience, I don't see this developing into anything.

Date: 2011-04-17 07:31 pm (UTC)
joasakura: (Default)
From: [personal profile] joasakura
I SO VERY MUCH WANT CATMAN/DEADSHOT... something. >.>;;;;

Date: 2011-04-17 07:39 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
"Is that a gun in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?"

"I'm Deadshot, what do you think?"

"Damn.."

Date: 2011-04-17 07:39 pm (UTC)
ext_171733: (Default)
From: [identity profile] werehawk.livejournal.com
I really see it as more of a platonic bromance. Guys (and I assume girls) can be close without any actual 'thing'.

Date: 2011-04-17 07:40 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Agreed, a little variety would be a lot more interesting.

Date: 2011-04-17 07:53 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
Guys (and I assume girls) can be close without any actual 'thing'.

No, I'm pretty sure that any time two guys are friends, or speak to each other, or even just stand close together it means they're banging.

Seriously, can we disagree on this point without you invoking the sanctity of platonic male friendships and implying that I'm somehow disrespecting them by having a different opinion to you?

And for what it's worth, I don't think it's a Thing in the sense of an actual romantic or sexual relationship; I just happen to think that Deadshot has an unrequited crush on Blake.

Date: 2011-04-17 08:04 pm (UTC)
joasakura: (Default)
From: [personal profile] joasakura
It must be Blake's mastery of cooking eggs.

Date: 2011-04-17 08:07 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
Or the "amazing eyes" that Helena noticed. Pity that all the boys with pretty eyes have such rotten souls.

Date: 2011-04-17 09:20 pm (UTC)
richardak: (Default)
From: [personal profile] richardak
That's an interesting point, but it is part of what I see as the problem. The character has sort of been nerfed.

Partly that's a problem of having the Huntress be part of the Birds: you either have to make her much lighter or the team as a whole much darker. On that note, I would not say she's playing by Bruce's rules, but rather that she's playing by Dinah's rules.

I think Simone does a good job, usually a very good job, of having her walk that fine line where she doesn't do anything that would make it impossible for Oracle and the Canary to work with her, but still creates the impression that she might. But it's very difficult, perhaps impossible, to keep that up forever. Back in volume 1 of Birds of Prey, you could really believe that Huntress might kill Sovereign Brusaw or Yasmine. In this volume, Oracle had to talk her out of killing the Penguin, but did anyone really think that she would go through with it?

Which is the other problem. It helped that Brusaw and Yasmine were not exactly well-known DC villains. I very much doubt that DC would ever let the Huntress kill the Penguin. Batgirl, Catwoman, Robin, etc., all have the advantage of being better-known characters who, at least from time to time sustain their own solo titles. From DC's perspective, it's okay for Catwoman to kill Black Mask, because Catwoman is herself a famous character who, at that time at least, had her own solo series; therefore it was okay for her to be the one to kill a relatively major villain like Black Mask. Huntress, being less well-known and less popular, wouldn't be allowed to kill the Penguin or even, say, Manbat.

So I see your point, I just think it's a problem.

Date: 2011-04-17 11:15 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
Yeah I mean I'm not even saying DON'T do murders I'm just saying, have them deal with crimes that aren't murder. Like have there be a series of armed robberies, and then the cops are trying to solve that. Armed robbery is a very serious crime! I think you could get people interested in an armed robbery episode pretty good, without having anyone get murdered at all! Kidnapping, arson, embezzlement, all important crimes.

When there are like ten or fifteen hour-long shows, all of them apparently in syndication, all centering around The Grisly Lurid Murder Of The Week it starts seeming like any time I channel flip I'm playing horrific murder roulette.

Date: 2011-04-17 11:23 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
This is actually why I like USA, because they'll do procedurals, but it'll be like White Collar, where they're chasing... an art forger! Or Psych, where they'll.... well, at least start out investigating a string of home invasions, although Pysch tends to throw in a murder halfway through whichever episode so the episode can be about that.

Even then Psych isn't so bad because it manages to stay fairly comedic, as opposed to the usual Murder of the Week show where the cast seems like they're all having a competition on who can be the smuggest douchebag / most dour, self-important asshole about This Serious Murder That Someone Did And It Is Bad Because Murder Is Bad And We Are Going To Stop Them Because That Is The Law And Murder Is Bad.

Date: 2011-04-18 06:19 am (UTC)
thanekos: Kouhei " Principal Garren " Hayami, the Libra Zodiarts, is bugged. (Default)
From: [personal profile] thanekos
Murder Monday sounds like any given universe with Ultraman's Miracle Monday.

Date: 2011-04-19 06:43 pm (UTC)
janegray: (Default)
From: [personal profile] janegray
And he killed a guard for that?

Date: 2011-04-25 02:13 pm (UTC)
ext_171733: (Default)
From: [identity profile] werehawk.livejournal.com
Wow. Defensive much?

"Seriously, can we disagree on this point without you invoking the sanctity of platonic male friendships and implying that I'm somehow disrespecting them by having a different opinion to you?"
No implication of disrespect here (or in my comment). At least none intended. I just said "I see it as..." I didn't even say you weren't right - you could be. Who knows? (Well I guess Gail does). Personally, I think it would be cute if you were right. But based on what I see, I lean towards the bromance.

"And for what it's worth, I don't think it's a Thing in the sense of an actual romantic or sexual relationship; I just happen to think that Deadshot has an unrequited crush on Blake."
I did get that from what you said originally.

Date: 2011-04-25 02:48 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
I was defensive because of this, specifically:

Guys (and I assume girls) can be close without any actual 'thing'.

Fair enough if you disagree about their relationship, that doesn't bother me. Condescension does. I mean, did you actually earnestly believe that I really didn't know about the existence of platonic male friendships until you enlightened me?

Although fyi I don't think that Deadshot has a thing for Catman simply because they are "close" - I think that because of the smoking fucking hot UST that I perceive between them.

Also, the old 'don't you realise that some male friendships are PLATONIC' card is frequently used as a way of dismissing queer readings, so it tends to get the automatic side-eye from me.

Date: 2011-04-25 03:21 pm (UTC)
ext_171733: (Default)
From: [identity profile] werehawk.livejournal.com
Are you saying that all male friendships have UST? That is a bold statement. A certain percentage, sure, but pointing out that some are platonic is not out of line I think.

I guess there is no talking to you. We all have opinions, but unless we are the writer or artist, they are not fact. You must be under some serious stress to be so adamant.

Date: 2011-04-25 03:33 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
Are you saying that all male friendships have UST?

What?! No, I wasn't saying that at all, and I'm not sure why you think I was.

I was referring to trolls who whine about how "men can just be platonic friends sometimes, y'know!" to disguise the fact that they simply have a problem with queer readings in general. Yes, men can be platonic friends. The fact that some fictional friendships get slashed doesn't negate that.

There was a discussion about this recently here:

http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/2845238.html?thread=95229750#cmt95229750

Everyone knows that friendships of *any* gender combination can be platonic. I just happen to think that this one isn't, at least on one side.

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