starwolf_oakley: (Default)
starwolf_oakley ([personal profile] starwolf_oakley) wrote in [community profile] scans_daily2011-05-21 08:56 pm

MARVELS: The Hero Hate Machine

A few posts down about Miriam Sharpe, we discussed why the Marvel Universe General Public seems to hate superheroes. What started with J. Jonah Jameson hating Spider-Man and Bolivar Trask building Sentinels to "save humanity" from mutants turned into Standard Operating Procedure for the MU public. And they act that way even without the Hate-Monger or the Serpent from FEAR ITSELF.

From MARVELS #4. Two pages, and the Lee/Ditko panels from AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #10 that established J. Jonah Jameson's envy problem after the cut.

Envy is a weird thing, as is Jonah being envious of Spider-Man. Is it that Jonah wishes he had spider-powers and super-strength as well? (Actually, that will probably be covered with SPIDER-ISLAND, when 8 million New Yorker's get spider-powers.) Or is it he wishes something else?

Here's the classic scene from the early Lee/Ditko days, AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #10.

There's more to Jonah than wanting to make money. Yes he's a blowhard and a cheapskate, but there's not much to say he's greedy. He wouldn't get an Orange Lantern Ring.

[personal profile] baxter2814 said in another post that the average MU citizen might not be jealous of the superheroes' powers, but their morality.

Actually, the "irritatingly moral" idea feels like it would be an excellent explanation for a lot of canon civilian behavior. It's actually something pretty damn disturbing however, as it implies that people can't stand to be around other people who are actually decent and upstanding and selfless because it makes them feel bad about themselves. So instead of looking up to them as role models, they lash out at and demonize and try to tear them down. It's only one step below how Lex Luthor is with Superman, or Doctor Doom with Reed Richards.

It's also very similar to how real-life people who want their superheroes to be amoral assholes because it's "realistic", even though the genre is "superhero" not "superasshole" or even "superperson" (Relatable flaws =/= total jerkwad). Which I really find pretty uncomfortable too. I could understand it in the Silver Age, where all heroes were portrayed as Always Right no matter what, but now it just reeks of jealousy and resentment.
amaniwolf: (Galactus)

[personal profile] amaniwolf 2011-05-22 11:27 am (UTC)(link)
Wow alot of what i've been thinking about MU is being laid out here. The constant fear and mistreatment of the heroes and the paranoia from the average citizens. I detested Civil War because of this and it's, let's strip these people with powers of their rights and force them to serve us, or drop them in a Gulag.
Say what you will about DC, but it did bring something to mind. Back when i read a Marvel/DC Crossover, some of the known Marvel Heroes were transported to the DCU, they stoppped these criminals and saved the day, and were cheered by the populace. The heroes were stunned, they were like.....are they cheering us? They.....they like us and aren't afraid? WTF? I found that very telling of the mindset of the heroes from Marvel when they don't expect any adulation, kindness or trust from the normal citizens. Doesn't anyone in Marvel say......thanks for saving my life. I really appreciate all you do?

[identity profile] 2011-05-22 01:49 pm (UTC)(link)
In JLA/Avengers it was quite interesting having the JLA end up in the remains of Genosha and be shocked and horrified by the genocide committed there.

[personal profile] arilou_skiff 2011-05-22 02:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Which in a very Kantian way makes them more heroic I think: Do do heroic things ad expect adulation (even if it is only a side-effect and not the major motivation) is very different from doing heroics and expecting naught but scorn.
bewareofgeek: (Default)

Or, indeed…

[personal profile] bewareofgeek 2011-05-22 06:26 pm (UTC)(link)
"We don't do it for the glory. We don't do it for the recognition... We do it because it needs to be done. Because if we don't, no one else will. And we do it even if no one knows what we've done. Even if no one knows we exist. Even if no one remembers we ever existed."

God, I love Alan Brennert's writing.
q99: (Default)

Re: Or, indeed…

[personal profile] q99 2011-05-22 11:20 pm (UTC)(link)
What's that from?
stolisomancer: (Default)

[personal profile] stolisomancer 2011-05-22 05:36 pm (UTC)(link)
On an individual level, whenever you see a superhero in Marvel saving a civilian, they are often appropriately grateful and will show appreciation.

On a society-wide level, there's just enough social realism that the people in the silly outfits who are walking nuclear weapons have a certain amount of understandable anger and fear directed at them. Even so: most of the heroes have fans at this point, and even the X-Men are actually considered the beloved protectors of San Francisco at the moment.
golden_orange: trust me, i'm wearing a vegetable. (Default)

[personal profile] golden_orange 2011-05-23 01:27 am (UTC)(link)
It was particularly interesting how in "JLA vs Avengers" Captain America's reaction to how the DC universe expressed loud gratitude to not only the Marvel heroes when they showed up but their own native heroes was "...OMG it can only be fascist mind control! Nothing else can explain this!"
golden_orange: trust me, i'm wearing a vegetable. (Default)

[personal profile] golden_orange 2011-05-23 07:27 am (UTC)(link)
Point -- although it did all lead up to one of my favourite bits in the third issue when they looked about ready to kick off YET AGAIN and Wonder Woman and Scarlet Witch (?) were both all "OMFG ENOUGH OF THIS FUCKING SHIT AND SHUT UP ALREADY GUYS."
darkblade: (Default)

[personal profile] darkblade 2011-05-23 01:35 pm (UTC)(link)
From what I remember it was practically everyone except for Tony and Bruce (who went off to go figure out what the hell was happening) who told them to shut up.
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)

[personal profile] wizardru 2011-05-23 02:30 pm (UTC)(link)
"Doesn't anyone in Marvel say......thanks for saving my life. I really appreciate all you do?"

They USED to. All the time.

The biggest thing about Spiderman was that as often as the Daily Bugle talked him down, folks on the street KNEW that Spidey was their man on the street. Sure, the X-men might be shunned by a mob or the Thing might get some lip on the street from a palooka...but at the end of the day, a grateful city turned it's eyes to the Baxter Building or Avengers Mansion for help. They used to get TICKER TAPE PARADES. Literally. (see Fantastic Four #312, for one example).
ogrebear: Ogrebears Icon (Default)

[personal profile] ogrebear 2011-05-23 05:48 pm (UTC)(link)
It does happen in Marvel, but not very often.