espanolbot: (Default)
[personal profile] espanolbot posting in [community profile] scans_daily
It's pretty interesting, and although it doesn't really change my mind about the "curing Oracle" issue I can at least see where they're coming from. Also Gail says that Steph and Cass should have a place in the new DCU, and if they're not being used they'll appear in Babs' new series,
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/gail-simone-dicusses-batgirl-and-oracle-110609.html

Gail also kind of implied that Babs won't be deaged when she puts on the costume, which takes care of THAT continuity snarl anyways. Though that now means that either Steph is going to step down as Batgirl at what is argueably the height of her career so far, OR... and this is the more unlikely reason... Babs fires her and takes her place.

The final issue of Steph's series looked like it was a final issue even before they announced the new line-up, so we should have seen it coming, I guess.

For legality from Nightwing Annual 2,


Date: 2011-06-10 07:12 am (UTC)
golden_orange: trust me, i'm wearing a vegetable. (Default)
From: [personal profile] golden_orange
"Gail also kind of implied that Babs won't be deaged when she puts on the costume, which takes care of THAT continuity snarl anyways."

I actually read her comments as suggesting that she WOULD be de-aged, a little bit at least, since she says that it's Barbara "at an earlier stage in her career"?. Unless I'm missing / misreading something?

Date: 2011-06-10 08:15 am (UTC)
swatkat: knight - er, morgana - in shining underwear (Default)
From: [personal profile] swatkat
No, I got the same implication. And then it's extremely puzzling, because Snyder seemed to suggest that past stories are still important. So... a Superboy Punch-like situation, perhaps?

Date: 2011-06-10 09:34 am (UTC)
newnumber6: (themainpoint)
From: [personal profile] newnumber6
Yeah, assuming Gail isn't lying at any point (which isn't always a fair assumption, but I'd like to think the best of people), we can deduce a few things:

1) It's not a cure, Batgirl is actually being deaged and set back to when she could still walk and was Batgirl. So it IS a reboot, at least in her case.
2) It's not meant to be a temporary thing, since she said it's the first time Barbara Gordon's ever had an ongoing solo series. If this was intended to be a temporary 'secret origins' type thing, or a one-year plotline that eventually reverts back to the real universe, it's not an ongoing, I don't care how you try to hide it by not putting 'miniseries' on the cover. It's only an ongoing Barbara Gordon solo book if you intend it to be ongoing as a solo Barbara Gordon book. (I suppose there's the outside chance that there is a time jump/reversal and once that happens, the book will STILL be an ongoing Barbara Gordon book, just called Oracle or something, but outside of that possibility, it's not an ongoing).

Now, it may also still be that the whole of DC relaunch is a "throw things at the wall and see what sticks" exercise, with the intention that anything they think 'works' continues indefinitely, with a plan to turn back the clock if something doesn't.

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Date: 2011-06-10 08:33 am (UTC)
maxisanacorn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] maxisanacorn
It's actually rather reassuring...there still is some things she's saying that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth " Give Babs a chance" kind of talk, which sounds pretty off when Babs was the (second) Bat-girl and already had her run as the character....over twenty years ago. It pretty much sounds more of an argument you could tell pro Batgirl Babs advocates " Give Steph a chance,"as if Babs here is the underdog in the whole situation. The clear $$$ motives of selling merchandise sounds a bunch like Cartoon Network canceling Symbionic-Titan, a great cartoon by the director of Dexter's Lab and Samurai Jack that they claimed didn't have any toys to go with it so they yanked it off the air.

The fact she said Oracle still exists is promising though. I don't think they'd put the role onto someone else and it probably means she's both and just being Batman's secret op.

As for Steph, I definitely noticed Dustin's last cover as having pretty much ALL the characters she's been with during her run and it didn't strike me until they announced the reboot that "Damn that looks like an end of series cover", at least if Dustin knew, then Miller might have known too so he could at least wrap up his run a bit...it's still so sad to see him go and the fact he wasn't cast in a reboot book is CRIMINAL. The same with Dustin Nyugen and Marcus To and Nicola Scott, they're not on any books! I know they might will be but, they're the best!

The fact Gail wasn't allowed to talk about Morrison's digital Batgirl thing is also suspect and has made me a bit less wary. She could have easily said they're going in a different direction from that and I don't think break her code of secrecy as to what they're planning. That's not telling anything about plot other than "that's not it no"

So the fact she also says changes not being set in stone, and people being up in arms about everything over one cover and blurb is also somewhat reassuring that this new gig for Babs might not be something that's going to stand but maybe just be for a little while a la Dick!Batman

I just think the timing of this is really weird though, I would think they would have tried to leave Steph as Batgirl for a while more since she basically has that Silver Age wonkiness, 24 issues literally twoish years of Steph as Batgirl since fall 09, that's both great for Steph that she held it and it sold rather well ( I think 25k is great! I wanna sell something that has to print 25k copies!). She is without a doubt at the height of her career and is winning fans rather quickly. To just pull the plug I think is just...rude. But granted they just canceled Gail's Secret Six, another stellar book, which was only in it's 35's so only been around a yearish more than Steph's book, which is sad in itself so I also apply the same feeling that it just hadn't been around long enough too.

I think as a fan for me it's more a giveth and then taketh away kind of feeling, this poor character that's a fan favorite and even IN COMIC is reprimanded and constantly being told to quit ( Miller does a great commentary on this with Steph after a person says "Thank you, you're doing a great job" to her, she doesn't know what to do with positive reinforcement and cracks a joke about it, its a great panel) is finally is granted to adopt the second tierish (too offensive to call any Batgirl a third tier character) character legacy of Batgirl, and then WHAM they demote her back to third tier Batman/Robin purists only fan club to make room for a character that held the position in the 60's. This is what Wally West fans must be feeling!

The fact though that Steph is going to Britain and she complains about being sent to boarding school is also rather convenient to let Babs be something back in Gotham as it means Stephanie could patrol in Britain, keep her purple Batgirl costume and be PURPLEBAT or something for Batman Inc just like Cass is the Batman of Hong Kong. Though I guess Knight and Squire would be considered London's Batman and Robin but there's no "Bat" representative at least in name. I could see that working. Then we could ask for a Squire/Steph oneshot after no doubt their awesome team-up coming soon!

So while it still frustrating, I'm happy this isn't as "Poof" as it could have been and seems still rather rooted in current continuity and I'm maybe 20% more certain this is based upon the Morrison thing.

Date: 2011-06-10 10:13 am (UTC)
flidgetjerome: Hark, a Vagrant #328 (Default)
From: [personal profile] flidgetjerome
The fact she said Oracle still exists is promising though. I don't think they'd put the role onto someone else and it probably means she's both and just being Batman's secret op.

From the blurb for the new Titans series I actually assumed that the role's actually being given to Tim Drake, at least to start with.

Date: 2011-06-10 05:57 pm (UTC)
darkblade: (Default)
From: [personal profile] darkblade
I know it's only a minor point but I'm still sore about Symbiotic Titan. It was a show about a giant robot, the only reason it wasn't selling toys was because you didn't make any.

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Date: 2011-06-10 09:23 am (UTC)
newnumber6: (owncanon)
From: [personal profile] newnumber6
No, Ms. Simone, I will not be giving Barbara Gordon as Batgirl a chance. You know why? Because I have before. Every time there's a new Batman cartoon series, who will inevitably show up? Barbara Gordon as Batgirl. If ever there's a mainstream movie with a Batgirl in it, chances are, who is it going to be? Barbara Gordon. And I give them a chance. I do it every time. And it's not that I'm disappointed when I do, it's that I have to do it so much that I'm just tired of it. If the Nolanverse ever decides to introduce Batgirl, you can bet who it's going to be: Barbara Gordon.

Because Batman gets rebooted all the time, and Batgirl tags along with him. Because they always like to start at the beginning, and Barbara is Batgirl in the beginning. I like Barbara, but she gets enough chances at Batgirl. For those who love Barbara as Batgirl, there are a myriad of opportunities to see her in action. She doesn't need to monopolize the chances in the comics, too. The comics are the places where we can MOVE PAST THE %!@%!ing beginning for once.

Tell you what, maybe I'll give her a chance in the comics, when WB gives a chance to a new Batman cartoon, one that starts out with Oracle in a wheelchair, Dick as Nightwing, Tim as Robin, Steph as Spoiler, and Cass as a girl with a troubled past that Oracle takes under her wing. Or when they decide to greenlight an animated movie that features Steph or Cass in _any_ significant way at all. That's not even a big commitment, just one movie. Then maybe I'll look into your comic... but until then, it's hard to shake the feeling that I've seen it all before.

You're a good writer, I'm sure you'll do well with it. But I don't care. It's Barbara Gordon as Batgirl. I've seen it before, and I can guarantee you, I'll see it again. So I'm going to pass this time. Because $2.99 a month is a lot to ask for something you've seen so many times before.

Date: 2011-06-10 10:48 am (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
Good comment!

Date: 2011-06-10 11:33 am (UTC)
angelophile: (Deadpool Approved)
From: [personal profile] angelophile
Yes, this, exactly.

Date: 2011-06-10 03:46 pm (UTC)
auggie18: (Default)
From: [personal profile] auggie18
I wouldn't worry about Batgirl being a movie. They tried that with Batman and Robin and since that tanked, they're not gonna try it again. (Keep in mind that that Batgirl's name was Barbara, but she wasn't Barbara Gordon. She was Alfred's blonde niece.)


I feel like if Batman TAS felt comfortable skipping Jason and going to Tim, then the next cartoon should skip Babs and go for Cass or Steph. Don't even have to ignore her. Just set up her as Oracle from the get go.

Date: 2011-06-10 04:21 pm (UTC)
kenn_el: Northstar_Hmm (Default)
From: [personal profile] kenn_el
Barbara Gordon as Batgirl has never been done well, and certainly not in the modern era. The Tooniverse Babs was readily accepted by the Batguys, and easily assimilated, never really working on her own. Comics Babs was an interesting premise, but technology wasn't at a point where her librarian skills could be as useful as they eventually became for Oracle, and her solo stories were often handled by lesser talents. Subsequent 'flashback' stories have always been told under a shadow of 'and we all know what happens to her, right?' atmosphere, making them less interesting than they might have been. This really IS the first opportunity to explore a modern Barbara Gordon as Batgirl.

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Date: 2011-06-10 10:10 am (UTC)
ardat_lili: An open pomegranate, a lipstick mark, and the words 'enjoy your stay' (Default)
From: [personal profile] ardat_lili
I mean, it seems like she's trying to make the best of a bad situation. And she just lost two books she was super invested in, whammo, and loves this character, and can't very well say "Please don't buy the new thing I'm writing. You're right. This is terrible." It would be unprofessional and threaten her job. She as much as said in the interview that she was against the reboot and against Barbara being back in the Batsuit and, once DC made the decisions, she allowed them to convince her. You can't expect her to give up her job and say, fuck you, DC, no, I'm never writing for you again. What's she going to do, go found the next Image or whatever?
This way, she at least gets to be near Babs, gets to have some say in how she develops, and still has a hand in with the DCU at all. I can hardly fault her for making a brave and optimistic face of it, and for doing her best to stay in the business.

(...okay, okay, the idea of Gail Simone running off with the best and brightest to create a new non-bullshit comics label is a lovely thing, yes. But. It would also mean none of them paying the rent for a while, and that's no good.)

But. I hate this reboot thing more and more. And at the same time, it puts the creators who want to stay employed in an ugly position. I can hate the compromises and worry about what happens to Steph and Renee and whoever and still see why it's going down. It strikes me as an exceptionally poor executive move, but, well.

My hope is that if enough decent creators keep their hands in the business, eventually the editorial grip will ease a little and they're be able to steer individual titles toward better stuff again. A costume change here, a plot there, a year down the line.

Date: 2011-06-10 04:03 pm (UTC)
halloweenjack: (Default)
From: [personal profile] halloweenjack
I mean, it seems like she's trying to make the best of a bad situation.

I think that that is exactly right.

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Date: 2011-06-10 11:02 am (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
But I keep seeing comments as if the word, "Girl" is in itself toxic, or insulting. And that is a weird piece of business in itself, far bigger than this comic book.

It's weird that people aren't down with female adults being infantilised?

Date: 2011-06-10 11:09 am (UTC)
shadeedge: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadeedge
I believe she's trying to suggest that people are thinking that "girl" is toxic and insulting - which certainly would be strange and unpleasant and all that business, except she seems to be missing out on that it is the context that's the problem, not the word on its own.

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Date: 2011-06-10 11:07 am (UTC)
shadeedge: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadeedge
I think there's something of a difference in Steph replacing Cass against Babs coming back. I mean, for one thing, though Asian characters aren't exactly widely represented in comics, Babs is literally one of two well-known comic wheelchair users, and as Gail points out, the other guy gets up for a stroll every now and then.

I respect the idea of having characters that you can relate to, and that for Gail, clearly, Babs as Batgirl is an awesome character with much personal interest for her. I'm sure we all have characters that are like that, and if given the chance, we'd jump at being able to contribute to their legacy in such a way. But i'd like to think that if I was given the ability to write my favourite character in my favourite situation for them, i'd turn it down if it also meant screwing a lot of people over. Put another way; there's certainly lots of kickass female characters for Gail to love. Probably a higher percentage of redheads than in real life. Though it doesn't really work so simply as that, there's lots of characters that she could relate to, who she could get an enjoyable thrill out of being able to write. But, though certainly disabled people can't solely relate to characters with the same or similar disability (and vice versa, there's also a lot of non-disabled fans of Oracle), if that does have meaning for you, if someone does enjoy being able to read about someone like them in that way, then, well, I hope they like Professor X.

And of course, there's the other problem; inevitably, the status quo returns, and the status quo at this point is Barbara paralyzed. And I don't see that being done in any particularly nice way.

Date: 2011-06-10 11:13 am (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
That was misleadingly worded, too, the bit about Cass vs Steph. Sure, people love Steph now, and appreciate her as Batgirl, but that doesn't make retiring an asian character for a white blonde one any less sketchy, does it?

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Date: 2011-06-10 01:07 pm (UTC)
mullon: (Azula)
From: [personal profile] mullon
Well I don't think that is fair, only releasing a cover of Babs without any information and then getting upset when people assume the worst. The comics industry doesn't have that kind of credentials.

Date: 2011-06-11 12:41 am (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
Where does she say she's upset?

Date: 2011-06-10 01:33 pm (UTC)
retro_nouveau: AARP Bruce (34)
From: [personal profile] retro_nouveau
I love Gail Simone. Even though she's a consummate spin doctor. One day we'll find out what's really on her mind.

I have to admit to hoping against hope that Steph is back in eggplant after this. I'm sure that hope will be dashed on the rocks with all the others soon enough.

Date: 2011-06-10 02:31 pm (UTC)
red_menace: BFF? (Default)
From: [personal profile] red_menace
When in doubt: Creators always lie.

Date: 2011-06-10 04:17 pm (UTC)
nickfury90: movie-verse Spidey (Default)
From: [personal profile] nickfury90
Now THERE's a pretty cynical way to go through life.

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Date: 2011-06-10 04:26 pm (UTC)
kenn_el: Northstar_Hmm (Default)
From: [personal profile] kenn_el
I know others have specific issues with the change, but Barbara being 'Batgirl', while newbie Kate Kane gets to be 'Batwoman' is akin to Dick remaining Batman, and having Bruce return from the dead as 'Batboy'.

Date: 2011-06-10 05:58 pm (UTC)
schala_kid: Stephanie Brown as Batgirl (batgirl)
From: [personal profile] schala_kid
Exactly, plus it seems like a step-down from Oracle.

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Date: 2011-06-10 06:53 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
I was kinda actually not totally against the Batgirl thing but that whole interview was so backhanded that now I think I hate it.

"Oh those ~comic fans~ and their ~short memories~!", ugh, fuck you too Gail Simone.

Date: 2011-06-10 06:58 pm (UTC)
nickfury90: movie-verse Spidey (Default)
From: [personal profile] nickfury90
Is there anything you DO like, fifthie? Honestly, I'm interested, you seem to be negative about every single thing since the reboot news. That's well within your rights of course, but you do LIKE comics...yes?

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Date: 2011-06-10 07:12 pm (UTC)
lucky_gamble: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucky_gamble
After reading the interview, I'm sold. Actually looking forward to Batgirl (would prefer Woman but...one battle at a time I suppose) even though i've always hated the Batbooks. That makes two books on the list.

Date: 2011-06-10 09:44 pm (UTC)
julian: Picture of Julian Street. (Default)
From: [personal profile] julian
First of all, Gail (and other creators, given what she's saying) are clearly being given editorially (and echelons higher than editorial) mandated changes. And also, just as clearly, given the Superbooks' solicits, this is a line-wide continuity reset. So OK, whatever. I can respect all of that. It's tough, defending decisions that aren't solely yours. (Though one option there is to /talk less/ about it. And be less defensive.)

And I get that, for example, the perception that Oracle being good at Solving Things means Batman is Less Special as a detective is mostly not Gail's. I think it's a really stupid perception, just for the record. One person being good at something does not mean another person is made less good at it, particularly given as Batman is also defined by other things than /just/ the detecting. /And also/, the two of them specialize in different aspects of detecting, and I could go on some more but I won't.

But... this bit is Gail-only, and it bugs me.

...why is it that virtually every single hero with a grievous injury, or even a death, gets to come back whole, except Barbara Gordon?

Barbara Gordon-as-Oracle is (in theory, depending on the writer) incredibly competent, damn good at her job, and a whole effin' person. "Paralyzed" does not mean "a partial person," thanks.

I don't want to get into the whole "But Batman had a broken back and now he's all better" thing. I get those points, and I get that there's a good argument fur "curing" Babs. I just have issues with how people perceive things and how they phrase them. That's all.

Date: 2011-06-10 10:03 pm (UTC)
benicio127: (Lois love)
From: [personal profile] benicio127
Yeah, it's all more ableism. You see it on the threads where people are excited about this, too -- they say things like "Babs is back!" She was never gone. >(

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Date: 2011-06-10 09:59 pm (UTC)
benicio127: (Default)
From: [personal profile] benicio127
OK so here's the thing. A lot of the people Gail mentions as being positive about this whom I have seen post on places like CBR have actually been really insensitive, ableist and outright hurtful in some of their comments. They have said things like "Well, I'm sorry to those who have lost a disabled character, but you still have Proxy."

....Which misses the point, entirely. One differently abled character does not replace the other. They are two different female characters, with different personalities, skill sets, character depth, breadth and prominence who both happen to use a wheelchair. That last fact does not make them one and the same and is actually quite insulting to suggest so.

Additionally, Gail herself has said the DCU will reflect the people who go to NYCC cons or SDCC cons. And aren't some of those people wheelchair users? Or differently abled in other ways? Should they not see themselves in comics? Or are we OK with going back to tokenism -- that is if Proxy even shows up in the new DCU. And what about Mia Dearden? Should we just cure her now, too? Not that those people who may have a personal resonance with the character mean anything, right? Where does the diversity line stand?

And this bullshit about Babs not being in action or near danger -- it's just that. She's been in action and danger situations in stories written by Simone herself.

Anyways, fuckyeahbatgirls has organized a letter writing campaign. As well, the oracle-create-a-thon tumblr started a Facebook page to organize people to stage protests at cons; plus you can send in art, fic, letters, etc., there, too.

And then Phil Noto drew this:


And he said: Oracle 1989-2011 - My first job in comics was creating covers for DC’s Birds of Prey and and over the the course of 24 issues I drew this lovely lady a lot. And then I did some brief interior work on the Cassandra Cain Batgirl and finally did the first run of covers for the Stephanie Brown incarnation. They’ve all been great Batgirls much like Steed’s partners in the Avengers. I’ve done numerous pieces of Babs as Batgirl more so for the retro iconography and the aesthetic look of the black, yellow and red then her actual persona as Batgirl. Honestly in terms of fictional characters, I always just considered her to be Oracle. I, like many others, am very sad her to see her go.

I think he posted it this morning and it's garnered 854 notes at this point.

Date: 2011-06-10 10:47 pm (UTC)
shadeedge: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadeedge
I really don't like the standard being set by Proxy in terms of her having been a kind-of Oracle-lite, especially what with Babs (presumably) giving up that role (in name, certainly). It suggests that the "Oracle" name, the legacy, is just something that characters do while paralyzed. As soon as you aren't, well, of course you change to something else! You only have to be Oracle while you're in a wheelchair - who would choose to be otherwise?

I'll call it as unfortunate implications, and not intended. But it doesn't strike me as all that impressive a note. Hopefully Proxy isn't going to take up more "Oracle-y" duties in the reboot (if she gets into it).

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Date: 2011-06-10 10:00 pm (UTC)
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)
From: [personal profile] nezchan
This will probably make me unpopular in the community, but I intend to buy this book in the fall. If it's good, I'll enjoy it, and probably look at getting the trades with Oracle in them and enjoying them too.

If it isn't good, I won't keep buying. But I'll probably look for the Oracle stuff anyway.

Date: 2011-06-10 10:09 pm (UTC)
red_menace: BFF? (Default)
From: [personal profile] red_menace
Same here. I whine and moan about Steph's book being my favorite ever, but I'll at least check this out and pray it doesn't screw up.

Date: 2011-06-10 10:05 pm (UTC)
jlroberson: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jlroberson
Batgirl is older than Batwoman, and both are redheads. Hmm.

Some inconsistencies will have to be...resolved...

I'm sorry, I'm biased. I like Barbara as Batgirl. This is not rational and cannot be argued away.

Date: 2011-06-11 01:44 pm (UTC)
sevarem: Phoenix!Jean is happy (Default)
From: [personal profile] sevarem
I know I'm in the minority here, but I'm actually looking forward to this DC reboot. I've wanted to get into the DCU for a while and this seems like a less intimidating way to do it. I'll be checking out this new Batgirl title because I'm interested in Barbara Gordon as a character and I want to see where Simone goes with it.

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