proteus_lives: (Default)
[personal profile] proteus_lives posting in [community profile] scans_daily
Greetings True Believers!

I have a response to Avengers: Children's Crusade #6 which came out today.

You'll want to check out Colonel Green's post if you haven't been following the series.

Enjoy!



CG's post.
http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/3091755.html?#cutid1

Well, Wanda. What about these folks?

Scans are from New X-Men and Decimation: Generation M.













Is Wanda going to wiggle her nose and bring them back? Is Iron Lad going to pop into the time-stream and bring them back?

Somehow I doubt it.

Let Logan gut her or put her in a little power-controlling box where she can re-power mutants one by one. Other then that, she never gets to use her powers again.

But that's not going to happen. I know and understand why but I wanted to voice a feeling that came up after reading CC #6 today.

Date: 2011-06-30 07:29 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] shadur
Ah, from back when Sally Floyd still convincingly portrayed a competent reporter.

Date: 2011-06-30 09:48 am (UTC)
cypherfdp: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cypherfdp
Hey now, it's not her fault Cap is TOTALLY UNREASONABLE. How dare he not poke her back on Facebook!

Date: 2011-06-30 07:29 am (UTC)
aaron_bourque: default (Default)
From: [personal profile] aaron_bourque
Yeah, and Hal Jordan should go to intergalactic prison, too.

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Date: 2011-06-30 01:33 pm (UTC)
darkblade: (Default)
From: [personal profile] darkblade
Or alternative he could have stayed dead. I'd be okay with that too.

Date: 2011-06-30 05:45 pm (UTC)
sun_man: this is Dick Grayson (Default)
From: [personal profile] sun_man
he should

Date: 2011-06-30 08:16 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] paultmd
I'm with proteus, but then I was also anti-HEAT.

Not every story has to end with a happy ending. And sometimes good guys do bad things and aren't looked at so kindly anymore. It happens in real life. Why shouldn't it happen to superhumans with the powers of gods?

And aaron has a point with the Hal Jordan reference(which inspired me bringing up HEAT). This is similar. An iconic member of a super team goes crazy and uses near-omnipotent power levels to try to put things the way they believe they should be, killing many innocents in the process.

And for a while I was pretty resentful that DC let Geoff Johns undo that, partially because I really liked their response to the situation that "We reserve the right to tell a story without a happy ending," and partially because I had grown attached to Kyle Rayner as he was introduced shortly after I started reading DC comics.

But then I really started to appreciate what Johns did with his Hal Jordan return, planting seeds for his epic stories. By redefining Parralax he not only absolved Hal of his blame for his actions but he also set up the Sinestro Corps war and the War of Light that led to Blackest Night. By bringing back the Lost Lanterns, he took away the deaths that Hal was responsible for, with Kiliwog already having been brought back.

And the stories that came after were REALLY good. There wouldn't have been a big-budget Green Lantern movie, regardless of how it turned out, if Geoff Johns hadn't have been writing some of the most entertaining Green Lantern stories ever since bringing back Hal.


But Heinberg's not doing that with Wanda. He hasn't absolved her of guilt in her actions. She went crazy from the stress of what she went through. She killed people with her insanity. And her response to that was first to recreate the world to suit what she thought her father wanted, then to kill even more people, then to shut herself down so she didn't have to face what she did, and now her response has been to mess with time and individually repower each of the people she's robbed of the life they knew.

So far it feels like the point of Children's Crusade has been to undo Avengers Disassembled and now House of M. These were major stories that were told for a reason and unless there are actual plans to set up major stories with a redeemed Wanda, rather than just redeeming her because she's a hero and shouldn't be crazy, it just seems kinda insulting to do this.

But then the story's only about 2/3 over, so there's still time for some twists and turns in the next 2 years it takes to finish the story, so maybe I'll be proven wrong and this doesn't really bring back Scott Lang, a number of depowered mutants, and hero Wanda

Date: 2011-06-30 11:39 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Interestingly, what appeals to you about the returned Hal and Corps is what has really put me off the concept. Everything they do now seems based around the sodding "emotional (conveniently tied to human visual) spectrum", and exacerbated (at least) by the Guardians being complete and utter arseholes.

Sure they were distant in the past, but they were also realtively unused and worked fine like that. Now the Corps is too busy fighting whatever rainbow of fruit lantern is currently causing trouble to actually do much else. If we HAD to have the Corp back (and I'm unconvinced we do) I liked the notion that the Corps were like Sherrifs, each responsible for the many and varied problems of their sector, crossing into each others territory when required or in hot pursuit. The notion of them having two per sectors was a good one as it allows for buddy/cop movie feel to it, as well as allowing dialogue to replace monologue.

Problems so large they require the ENTIRE Corps are either so large they need a deus ex machina to sort them out, plus leaving the rest of their sector unprotected from whatever is coming up next.

The stories are epic, but they don't all need to be SO COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY EPIC ALL THE TIME!!

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Date: 2011-06-30 12:29 pm (UTC)
blackruzsa: LJ main icon (John Constantine)
From: [personal profile] blackruzsa
Okay, so one sec before I continue, unless he wasn't able to start swimming upward, how come he drowned in ten feet of water? I can swim in twelve without any apparatus, and get back up before I lose breath.
OR WAS IT BECAUSE he has no lungs at all? (because then I'd understand it, damn)

I don't blame Wanda for this, honestly, in the first few scans, the writers had this annoying habit of killing kids off every issue, one or a dozen at a time, and I hated that so much you don't even know.

More importantly, I think I'm beginning to understand more why they said that Wanda's "no more mutants" bid as "genocide", though you can't pin the horrors all on one person. There were a lot of people who were equally to blame for this catastrophe besides Wanda.

It's like saying Hitler was the only one who enacted all the horrors of the Naziregime when you know there were millions more behind that, soldiers and authorities and the more violent supporters, some of them almost equally to blame even if they're not named.

Date: 2011-06-30 02:26 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Okay, so one sec before I continue, unless he wasn't able to start swimming upward, how come he drowned in ten feet of water? I can swim in twelve without any apparatus, and get back up before I lose breath.
OR WAS IT BECAUSE he has no lungs at all? (because then I'd understand it, damn


Might not be as simple as that, the removal of his mutant physiology might well have been complete agony for him as his entire breathing system was undone whilst he was submerged,. There's a good likelihood he was in no state to try and surface or stop himself trying to breath in an environment he now couldn't cope with.

Date: 2011-06-30 02:37 pm (UTC)
pyrotwilight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pyrotwilight
Well, he did likely have all that water in his body that was no longer being supported as it was with his mutancy. So he might've simply been unable to bring himself with it weighing him down depending on how his powers actually worked.

Date: 2011-06-30 05:18 pm (UTC)
liara_shadowsong: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liara_shadowsong
Maybe he was in such crippling pain as a result of his gills closing up that he passed out, and when he floated to the surface, it was face-down, so he drowned?

Date: 2011-06-30 01:37 pm (UTC)
crabby_lioness: (Default)
From: [personal profile] crabby_lioness
I loved Sally's series. I loved seeing how average mutants were affected.

Date: 2011-06-30 01:45 pm (UTC)
mullon: (The Sad Face)
From: [personal profile] mullon
Abe no!

Date: 2011-07-02 02:01 pm (UTC)
endis_ni: (Default)
From: [personal profile] endis_ni
Oh, and now I can't unsee that. Or the inevitable moment when Hellboy goes to pound on Wanda for it.

Date: 2011-06-30 02:55 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
tthe thing is, she did the things she did because no body helped her. I honestly like the way she put it in Chidren's Crusade. Instead of trying to help her, the Avengers basically came to her and said, You are Wrong, you can't do this, now, kill your children. so she made THEM face THIER worse moments.

they could have tried talking to her. she was mentally ill (and i cringe at that. because honestly that just sucked. she's powerful, so must be crazy!) and instead of trying to help her, they assemble both the x-men and the avengers (essentially two armies) without trying to explain things, even to pietro. Of COURSE he thought they were going to kill her! no one gave him any reason not to think so. those who question killing her never said "no we won't kill her," they said "But we can't kill her can we?" even Cap didn't know what to say, Cap of ALL people should have said "LIsten! Wanda is an Avenger, we are here to make sure she is okay, NO ONE is killing ANYONE."

Now what Pietro did was wrong, he manipulated his fragile sister into making things even worse. what Wanda needed was HELP and support. No one even stopped to consider, "My god, the absolute HELL this woman has gone through!"

i'm not absolving her, at some point she also needs to take ownership of her actions, because yes, her actions had HORRIBLE consiquences.

honestly, I hope it turns out Mephisto messed with her because that whole thing was crap. it had potential but the story was handeled badly.

Date: 2011-06-30 03:10 pm (UTC)
auggie18: (Default)
From: [personal profile] auggie18
I actually think craziness at her level of power in that series makes a ton of sense. Imagine a world in which every fleeting thought of your has the potiential to, at any moment, become reality. Imagine how scary it would be to be unable to sleep for fear of your nightmares turning real. (And, honestly, that's kinda what I thought had happened in Disassembled for a while.) Slowly, you'd start changing thing, little things, without realizing it at first. As you become aware of this, you start using the power more and more, trying to fix things. But that doesn't change the fact every negative thought is still there, every nasty little what-if you ever daydreamed in a sullen moment, just waiting for you to lose your temper or let your concentration slip...

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Date: 2011-06-30 03:29 pm (UTC)
auggie18: (Ack!)
From: [personal profile] auggie18
I don't think killing her is really the right response here. Wanda was severely mentally unhinged at the time and murdering someone for unforeseen consequences of an action they performed while mentally impaired seems wrong. (And to be honest, her normal behavior in CC is kinda weird given that she's had no help with various problems.) Locking her up, yeah. Getting her some goddamn therapy, yeah. There's about a hundred ways to limit or eliminate her powers.


The "arbitrary changes" thing is something that really honked me off about the way the story was developed. Shouldn't the mutation wipe have effected everyone the same way? Why did Beak and his kids revert to normal humans when neck girl didn't? Why was the Blob stuck halfway between, retaining the skin, but none of his fat?


Wolverine lost all sympathy when he decided to murder Wiccan as well. I get him wanting to get revenge on Wanda, but wanting to kill a kid just because he may one day have the potential to do what Wanda did? Uncool. Hell, Wolverine gets brainwashed every few months or so and tries to kill everybody. Logically his ass should get eliminated too.

Date: 2011-06-30 04:54 pm (UTC)
lucky_gamble: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucky_gamble
Exactly. If he followed his own logic he would have to kill Daken and X-23. They already showed at one point or another that they have the potential to kill a healthy dose of people. But like a bad housekeeper, he just sweeps those two under the rug.

Date: 2011-06-30 03:53 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
[yawn]

Frankly, I'd rather just see Wolverine bumped off. And left that way for at least a couple of decades. Talk about terminal overexposure. :p

Date: 2011-06-30 07:04 pm (UTC)
practicalcat: A picture of a green-eyed black cat with the caption "My fandom takes orders from a cat" (Redemption of Althalus)
From: [personal profile] practicalcat
I am in favor of this plan.

Or we could go the Angel: the Series route and lock him in a box and drop him in the ocean for awhile.

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Date: 2011-06-30 04:04 pm (UTC)
turtlefu: (Default)
From: [personal profile] turtlefu
For me, I just want a scene where Wanda has a "OH NO WHAT I HAVE I DONE" moment. Because she can give back mutant powers all she wants, but she can't bring back the people that she killed. She needs to at least SEEM guilty of her actions

Date: 2011-06-30 04:10 pm (UTC)
salinea: (ok)
From: [personal profile] salinea
there were several of those scenes in the lattes CC.

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Date: 2011-06-30 04:49 pm (UTC)
lucky_gamble: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lucky_gamble
Ah yes the result of M-Day. Wanda needs to go through an Angel-like guilt trip (a century of guilt and deprived of happiness). I forgot how bad her stunt was. They ain't no coming back from that hon.

Date: 2011-06-30 07:43 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Except she was mentally unbalanced at the time and so should have some compassion shown to her methinks.

There's no indication she meant anyone any harm by her action, and it would be most unlike a Wanda who was in her right mind to trigger something which would cause mass death, or even injury.

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Date: 2011-06-30 06:30 pm (UTC)
silverzeo: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverzeo
I don't see what the big deal is, Magento got the High Evolutionary to bring back his powers through some suit, and Quicksilver was able to use will-power to bring back his...

Date: 2011-06-30 06:41 pm (UTC)
biod: Cute Galactus (Default)
From: [personal profile] biod
And stolen Terragen crystals if I remember correctly. I'm very glad his daughter didn't let him off the hook for that one.

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Date: 2011-06-30 06:40 pm (UTC)
biod: Cute Galactus (Default)
From: [personal profile] biod
I'm on the fence about this whole issue. The big thing is that I haven't read a lot of stories with Wanda in them (I'm actually pretty sure that Disassembled was one of my first Avengers comics), so I don't feel really comfortable passing judgement on her charactarization.
M-Day was the result of a broken and highly unstable woman with WAY too much power trying to make sure that her percieved mistakes could never be repeated. Not exactly a recipe for succes there, so that many of the results were horrifying is to be expected. She does not deserve to be comepletely absolved for her crimes, especially not without penance, but I believe helping the people who want to be helped will go a long way. It is the will to help that makes people heroes, not their past, so I do like that. I just hope that Schism doesn't complicate things further (HEY, that might be the catch you're all clamoring about!).
What troubles me from a story perspective is Wanda's insane reality warping powers. At the very least she has to live with the death toll, so she's not off scott free, but repowering the mutants by her hands feels a bit off, even if it does make for good redemption.
Then there's the fact that she's sort of intruding on Hope's Mutant Messiah gig. The writers are going to have to figure out a way for that to work to make sure one does not feel redundant after all that developement and build up.
Wow that was a long post.

Date: 2011-07-01 01:53 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] 20thcenturyvole
Eh, I never think killing a character is any kind of solution. It can make a good story, but it's the nature of comics to undo themselves whenever they get into too bad a snarl, and for characters to do terrible damn things that the writer at the time doesn't actually think through. Hell, I'm a fan of The Authority, and I defy anyone to find a comic book with more characterisation whiplash as it passes from one writer to the next. My policy is to just take a deep breath and vow to get invested again in the book or character when someone actually good is writing them.

No, I don't think Wanda should die. I could wank all kinds of in-universe justifications - she was mentally ill and getting no damn help from her teammates, etc. etc. - but when it comes right down to it, my reason is this: House of M was stupid and ballsed up Wanda (just like Civil War was stupid and ballsed up Iron Man). Now a different writer is using Wanda to tell a fun story that doesn't make me grit my teeth. Thus I am happy.

Date: 2011-07-01 06:41 am (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
Hello to The Buy Pile

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