aeka: (Huntress [wut]:)
[personal profile] aeka posting in [community profile] scans_daily
The absolute WTF conclusion to Helena B's short run as Batgirl II.

(Click for parts I, II, and III).

Consider yourselves forewarned...


But first, a temper-tantrum rant from the original Batgirl herself:

From No Man's Land Vol. 2 TPB: 3 pages out of 206.

No Mans Land

No Mans Land

No Mans Land

And then the big scolding from the boss man, himself.

From No Man's Land Vol. 3 TPB: 13 pages out of 206.

No Mans Land

No Mans Land

Batman pulls the "you made three mistakes" card, and Helena says "fuck it! I quit!"

No Mans Land

No Mans Land

No Mans Land

No Mans Land

And then, things get even more fucked up. The fate of Helena B's Batgirl costume as we know it.

No Mans Land

Now he realises he can't maintain order in Gotham at large by himself and decides he needs help. Right after he gave Helena shit for not being able to work alone. *facepalm*

No Mans Land

No Mans Land

No Mans Land

No Mans Land

And so Batgirl III begins, where Batgirl II ended.

Moral of the story: If your violent history doesn't involve you being responsible for dead bodies, Batman will be less of a dick to you. Second moral of the story: running around as Batgirl--even just to help out in an emergency like NML--hits Babs too close to home. But be willing to take a bullet or two for her daddy twice, then she'll put aside her own personal attachment to the role, and you'll have her blessing to run around as Batgirl. Hypocrisy at its very best indeed.

Because Helena got singled out from being part of a bigger team, she resumes her Huntress and decides to work alone. Can't say I blame her after all she went through.

No Mans Land

Date: 2011-07-25 06:24 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Cass looks weird here, probably because it's, like, her second appearance or so. A lot more 'generic hot asian girl'.

-Second moral of the story: running around as Batgirl--even just to help out in an emergency like NML--hits Babs too close to home. But be willing to take a bullet or two for her daddy twice, then you'll have her blessing to run around as Batgirl. Hypocrisy at its very best indeed.-

I wonder how Babs would've reacted if she knew it was Huntress. Or if Huntress had managed to pull off some spectacular wins first.

Still, I think it makes sense to be more ok with choosing a successor than someone taking the role on their own.

Date: 2011-07-25 10:27 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
running around as Batgirl--even just to help out in an emergency like NML--hits Babs too close to home. But be willing to take a bullet or two for her daddy twice, then you'll have her blessing to run around as Batgirl. Hypocrisy at its very best indeed.-

I really don't see that as hypocrisy, just being human.

Babs has no knowledge of who this Batgirl is, she has no reason to trust her beyond Batman's vague and evasive comments. Given her last experience with Bruce appointing a replacement (Jean Paul as unbalanced Bat-loon) her reticence is entirely understandable.

The fact the new Batgirl then goes on to prove herself in a manner which has deep personal significance to Babs, which causes Babs to appreciate that this woman CAN do some good, is a perfectly natural reaction I think.

Date: 2011-07-25 06:52 am (UTC)
shanejayell: (Question)
From: [personal profile] shanejayell
Bruce, you utter ASS. *sigh*

Date: 2011-07-25 07:04 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Yea, his problems with her don't really seem to be about orders (just one of his points) but more about her not being able to handle stuff that simply required more than one person of her level.

Date: 2011-07-25 08:17 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
90s Batman at his finest.

Date: 2011-07-25 07:05 am (UTC)
kusonaga: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kusonaga
Yeah, Huntress definitely comes off better here than Bats.

Date: 2011-07-25 09:44 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
There are bacilli living in on the soles of Huntress's boots that comes off better than Batman here.

Date: 2011-07-25 07:26 am (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
Who drew the scolding scene? it looks like if Mike Deodato Jr wanted to draw DCAU.

The recruitment of Cass as Batgirl reminds me of a Davil Mitchell monologue about how the public perceive only "front line" policing as "proper police work. Ideally, what would happen would be at the start of their shift, the police officers would all put on their uniforms, or peel them from the bodies of their fallen comrades, grab a truncheon from the pile and go out and catch criminals for 8 hours, at which point they would return with a van full of ne'er do wells to put in the cells and let somebody else worry about silly things like "paper work" and "bags of evidence."

Was that costume still warm when Cass put it on?

Date: 2011-07-25 07:32 am (UTC)
aaron_bourque: default (Default)
From: [personal profile] aaron_bourque
"And you blame me!"

"No. I hold you responsible. As I hold myself."

Yeah, Batman's a complete and utter asshole for . . . holding himself to impossible standards and requiring people who wear his symbol to meet those exacting standards?

Huntress didn't ask to be Batgirl, and she wasn't chosen for the role. She took the role and responsibility on herself. And when Batman holds her responsible to her actions and failures, she bitches and moans and complains, throws a hissy fit and quits on him.

And people wonder why it took so long for me to warm up to her.

Date: 2011-07-25 08:22 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
That is a point. She got the costume because people are afraid of the Bat. Why are they afraid of the bat? Because the Bat is supposed to do impossible things.

I don't have a problem with her here, she did have a good point herself, facing Two-Face and his gang there would not have worked, but I can see why Batman was pushing really hard too. Maybe if he had stressed 'we're here to do the impossible,' rather than 'follow orders!' things would've worked out better between them.

Date: 2011-07-25 08:39 am (UTC)
biod: Cute Galactus (Default)
From: [personal profile] biod
He did both. And I can see Batman beeing even edgier than usual on account of his city becoming the wretched hive of scum and villainy the most cynical always declared it to be.

Date: 2011-07-25 07:48 pm (UTC)
tsunamiwombat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tsunamiwombat
A real leader acknowledges the limitations of himself and the tools he has to work with. By failing to do so and putting Huntress in a situation he knew she probably wouldn't suceed in he's more responsible for those deaths than her.

Helena did everything she could. Batman didn't. And he's pushing his guilt off on her. A human response but not one to have in the middle of a crisis situation.

Date: 2011-07-25 07:51 pm (UTC)
biod: Cute Galactus (Default)
From: [personal profile] biod
Exactly, a human response, and a mistake that I can easily see Batman making. The irony of a flawed Batman expecting flawlessness is not lost on me, but for the most part I don't think it's bad writing in any way.
Cass' introduction to the title immediately afterward could have been handled better though.

Date: 2011-07-25 09:15 am (UTC)
aaron_bourque: default (Default)
From: [personal profile] aaron_bourque
I don't have a problem with her here

This is a culmination of nearly a decade of similar behavior with Batman.

In fact, I'm going to sum it up; a Decade of Batman/Huntress:

BATMAN: YOU CAN'T KILL CRIMINALS!

HUNTRESS: YOU'RE INSANE, I DON'T CARE IF THEY GET HURT OR KILLED IN THE COURSE OF WHAT I DO!

BATMAN: YOU'RE INSANE, YOU CAN'T KILL CRIMINALS!

HUNTRESS: YOU'RE INSANE!

BATMAN: YOU'RE INSANE!

HUNTRESS: YOU'RE INSANE!

BATMAN: YOU'RE INSANE!

HUNTRESS: YOU'RE INSANE!

BATMAN: YOU'RE INSANE!

HUNTRESS: YOU'RE INSANE!

BATMAN: YOU'RE INSANE!

HUNTRESS: I DON'T FOLLOW YOUR RULES, AND NOW I'M LEAVING!

BATMAN: ...

Date: 2011-07-25 09:46 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
See, that would have been more entertaining to read than what we got which, with all due respect to your writing, is rather depressing.

Date: 2011-07-25 09:46 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
Pretty much, yea :)

Date: 2011-07-25 05:42 pm (UTC)
thatnickguy: Oreo-lovin' Martian (Default)
From: [personal profile] thatnickguy
Hang on, hang on...

*scribbles notes into his writing book* This is some riveting stuff!

Date: 2011-07-25 11:03 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Hmmm, I've never been a huge Huntress fan, but I think even I have to take her side on this one.

Helena didn't ask to be Batgirl, that's true, but it's also NOT Batman's ID to control or make demands of. He's overlooking that everything he does is because HE has appointed HIMSELF as Batgod in NML.

I had a similar reaction to his "firing" of Dick as Robin. Bruce declares that not only is their partnership now over, which is stunningly dickish move to make toward someone who is, essentially, his son, but almost as bad he forbids him from ever being Robin again, which he has absolutely no right authority, or power, to do. Robin is not his identity to control, it was Dick's, but that is irrelevant because it doesn't line up with what Bruce wants.

Here again, it doesn't occur to him (for the umpteenth time) to factor in that other people ARE NOT HIM and it is an act of insanity to assume they are.

Yes, the role has expectations of it (though (with all respect to Babs fans) given that Babs as Batgirl was always at best a second tier hero, perhaps not THAT many) but Helena has performed admirably in the role. Lives HAVE been saved by her presence, more people are now breathing because she was there than if she had not been. She might not be the perfect follower, but she never claimed to be.

You don't judge whether someone else is doing their best by comparing them to you, but by comparing them to THEM. If Helena had been slacking, or foolish, or incautious, then yes, she is a liability, but "Not agreeing with Batman" is NOT a capital crime.

Again, he completely fails to show her respect for what she has done, but essentially castigates her for failing to be him.

Mod note

Date: 2011-07-25 05:19 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (grr)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
Could you not use "bitches" and "hissy fit" to describe a scene where a man is using his self-imposed authority to berate a woman (who does not take to this)?

Cheers.

Language, Man [Re: Mod note]

Date: 2011-07-25 06:58 pm (UTC)
aaron_bourque: default (Default)
From: [personal profile] aaron_bourque
Okay, but I can't think of any other way of putting it that isn't either painting Helena as a child or worse. I mean, would you rather I said "whines and moans and throws a temper tantrum"?

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; besides, bitches and moans is an idiom, and isn't meant to denigrate anyone's gender. It's used for people, not just women. And would you complain if I were talk about issues being or not being "black and white" in relation to the new and original Mr. Terrific?

Re: Language, Man [Re: Mod note]

Date: 2011-07-25 07:10 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
I'm sure you could think of something.

It may not be meant to denigrate gender, but that ain't the same as being weight-free. Especially, I gotta say, when you say "people, not just women" in the next sentence. Sure, you meant "all people, not only the female ones", but what you said was so-similar to the 'men are default, women are different' trope that is seen so irritatingly often.

Come on - your last sentence? Seriously? Do you want to make my comment asking for a smidge more delicacy in man vs woman commentary about all language ever as regards the entire kyriarchy?

You haven't been warned or penalised. I just made a request that you're free to think about and make your own way around, at your leisure, before you comment further in similar contexts. I appreciate that it may have come as a surprise or seem like a bother but finding fault and nitpicking at my request almost immediately isn't really useful. It just creates ill feeling.

Re: Language, Man [Re: Mod note]

Date: 2011-07-26 12:36 am (UTC)
aaron_bourque: default (Default)
From: [personal profile] aaron_bourque
just creates ill feeling.

::shrug::

If you say so.

Date: 2011-07-25 05:30 pm (UTC)
shadeedge: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadeedge
It seems illogical to hold someone to the same standards and then apply differing consequences to failure. Huntress is held to impossible standards, fails, and is considered unsuitable for the job. Batman is held to impossible standards, fails, and... continues on?

I'd also say that Batman is holding her to those responsibilities in the most assholish way possible. Does he offer advice to improve? Does he, with his criticism, make constructive comments? Does he apply his own evaluation of Huntress' problems to helping in his dealings with her? No. If anything, he seems to go out of his way to be as vague and unhelpful as possible ("trying isn't enough", "What am I supposed to do?" - "More."). These aren't the actions of someone who desires to make the most out of a situation, or who aims to make an honest judgement of someone's ability. These are the actions of someone who's quite clearly already made up their mind, has zero interest in attempting to salvage the situation, and whose manner of address is designed (because Batman isn't stupid) to be as uselessly authoritarian as possible towards someone who he himself admits has problems with taking orders.

From these scans, Huntress certainly doesn't come out perfectly. But Batman has bought out all of Gotham's thread farms, weavers, and rope production facilities so that he can give her all the rope she needs to hang herself.

Date: 2011-07-25 05:57 pm (UTC)
christianconnor: (Default)
From: [personal profile] christianconnor
My thoughts exactly.

You never see Batman fail and say "Whoops, that's the last straw. I'm going to take up knitting somewhere safe where I can't screw up any more. I'm going to be Clark's stay-at-home boyfriend."

Date: 2011-07-25 06:59 pm (UTC)
aaron_bourque: default (Default)
From: [personal profile] aaron_bourque
But he isn't firing her. He's telling her "Be better, or stop it." SHE quits.

Date: 2011-07-25 07:41 pm (UTC)
tsunamiwombat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tsunamiwombat
She quits but countinues to save lives as Huntress without his authority. It would be one thing if she sat in her room eating cheetos for the rest of NML, but she just quits taking Batmans shit.

Date: 2011-07-25 10:10 pm (UTC)
shadeedge: (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadeedge
I think the unspoken message here is that if she elected to carry on as she was and as Batgirl, Batman himself would step in to stop her. Otherwise, what's the point in him stepping in at all?

Date: 2011-07-25 10:21 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
To which a perfectly natural reply would be "Who made you my judge? You are still a self appointed vigilante yourself, right?"

Okay, Take Two

Date: 2011-07-26 12:42 am (UTC)
aaron_bourque: default (Default)
From: [personal profile] aaron_bourque
"And you blame me!"

"No. I hold you responsible. As I hold myself."

Yeah, Batman's a complete and utter asshole for . . . holding himself to impossible standards and requiring people who wear his symbol to meet those exacting standards?

Huntress didn't ask to be Batgirl, and she wasn't chosen for the role. She took the role and responsibility (of Batman, recall) on herself. And when Batman holds her responsible to her actions and failures, she whines and moans and complains, loses her temper and quits on him.

And people wonder why it took so long for me to warm up to her.

Date: 2011-07-25 04:08 pm (UTC)
kenn_el: Northstar_Hmm (Default)
From: [personal profile] kenn_el
This was why I never warmed up to Cass. The Huntress character was set up to fail (same as Steph as Robin), in that there was no way Helena was going to remain Batgirl. It was a foregone conclusion, so the 'drama' was in how they were going to assassinate her character (and Bruce's, and, to an extent, Barbara's) in order to replace her with someone else.

Date: 2011-07-25 05:43 pm (UTC)
zechs80: (Mayuri)
From: [personal profile] zechs80
I really didn't mind the dickish way Babs presented herself here. Also it wasn't just saving her dad's life twice. Cass was around Babs as a messenger for No Man's Land for those first few months. So she knew more of Cass then say the person who took over her identity and Batman was doing a thing about it. Plus I think Babs saw the new costume and thought:

"NOOO!! I WILL NOT HAVE MY OUTFIT BE MADE X-TREME!!!" *Jean Paul is standing behind and she realizes that* "What it's your fault! You and your cape flaps and talon gauntlets that had a flame thrower attached to them. What were you thinking?!" *Jean Paul gives puppy face and runs off*

Also being that this was the event that got me fully into batman books for an entire year, even I knew that the moment this Batgirl would be revealed that she loose the identity to someone else. And when that someone else was Cass, it didn't bother me at all. Course Cass also had one heck of a opening two part story.

You should just go for broke and post the remainder of Huntress's time in No Man's Land. Of her times with the crazy SWAT captain and it all culminating with her once more an army of thugs this time Joker's.

Date: 2011-07-25 07:44 pm (UTC)
tsunamiwombat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tsunamiwombat
Bab's came out the best honestly. She's upset but understanding. She deals with it for the better of the city.

Bruce doesn't.

Date: 2011-07-25 06:26 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Also have to add that Bats treatment of Babs is also crappy here. He should KNOW the impact that a new Batigrl would have had on here and NOT telling her, even as a courtesy gesture, is an asshole move in anyone's books.

If he'd even broached the subject with her, to make sure she knew before the reports about a new Batgirl came in, it wouldn't be so bad.

Date: 2011-07-25 07:06 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
Wow... i didn't know this is how it played out... But the way Cass got the cowl seems up there with the way people were criticising the way Steph got the Cowl....

How... how can Bruce even say those things after what he did to Helena... I take it this is before the Joker situation?

Date: 2011-07-25 08:20 pm (UTC)
pyrotwilight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pyrotwilight
Given how Cass has been shown to randomly lounge around in Outsiders this was my only thought...

Batman: You can change in the bedroom.
Cassandra: *strips right there and puts on the outfit*
Batman: Um, well....welcome aboard?

Date: 2011-07-25 08:21 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
Huntress should have been the one firing Batman for running the fuck away in a crisis and leaving her holding the bag.

Date: 2011-07-26 12:29 am (UTC)
salinea: (bite me)
From: [personal profile] salinea
fuck, yeah!

Date: 2011-07-26 02:24 am (UTC)
bluestar86: (Default)
From: [personal profile] bluestar86
Ah, Bruce Wayne the eternal hypocrite. I can kind of understand where Barbara is coming from, but I'll be honest, I've never been attached to something like that before. That she throws such a temper-tantrum over a costume is mind-boggling. What makes it even more confusing, is Helena never calls herself Batgirl (in fact, I'm not even sure she is ever called Batgirl, except in the solicits), now she has been called Batman on occasion, she usually went by "The Bat" as far as I could tell.

Seriously, Barbara, it's a costume, a title, and you haven't worn it in most of a decade at this point. Getting this up in arms about it is really immature. You can feel free to ask the same questions, just don't be pissed some "girl" decided to put on a "bat-themed" costume.

Christ, this is like when Barbara yelled at Cass for not being able to read, despite not actually helping her learn to read in the last few years, all over again. Like Bab's "MY PARENTS ARE DEEEEAAAAAAD!!" is "I'M NOT GETTING MY WAAAAAAAAY!"

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