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scans_dailyThe absolute WTF conclusion to Helena B's short run as Batgirl II.
(Click for parts I, II, and III).
Consider yourselves forewarned...
But first, atemper-tantrum rant from the original Batgirl herself:
From No Man's Land Vol. 2 TPB: 3 pages out of 206.
And then the big scolding from the boss man, himself.
From No Man's Land Vol. 3 TPB: 13 pages out of 206.
Batman pulls the "you made three mistakes" card, and Helena says "fuck it! I quit!"
And then, things get even more fucked up. The fate of Helena B's Batgirl costume as we know it.
Now he realises he can't maintain order in Gotham at large by himself and decides he needs help. Right after he gave Helena shit for not being able to work alone. *facepalm*
And so Batgirl III begins, where Batgirl II ended.
Moral of the story: If your violent history doesn't involve you being responsible for dead bodies, Batman will be less of a dick to you. Second moral of the story: running around as Batgirl--even just to help out in an emergency like NML--hits Babs too close to home. But be willing to take a bullet or two for her daddy twice, then she'll put aside her own personal attachment to the role, and you'll have her blessing to run around as Batgirl. Hypocrisy at its very best indeed.
Because Helena got singled out from being part of a bigger team, she resumes her Huntress and decides to work alone. Can't say I blame her after all she went through.
(Click for parts I, II, and III).
Consider yourselves forewarned...
But first, a
From No Man's Land Vol. 2 TPB: 3 pages out of 206.
And then the big scolding from the boss man, himself.
From No Man's Land Vol. 3 TPB: 13 pages out of 206.
Batman pulls the "you made three mistakes" card, and Helena says "fuck it! I quit!"
And then, things get even more fucked up. The fate of Helena B's Batgirl costume as we know it.
Now he realises he can't maintain order in Gotham at large by himself and decides he needs help. Right after he gave Helena shit for not being able to work alone. *facepalm*
And so Batgirl III begins, where Batgirl II ended.
Moral of the story: If your violent history doesn't involve you being responsible for dead bodies, Batman will be less of a dick to you. Second moral of the story: running around as Batgirl--even just to help out in an emergency like NML--hits Babs too close to home. But be willing to take a bullet or two for her daddy twice, then she'll put aside her own personal attachment to the role, and you'll have her blessing to run around as Batgirl. Hypocrisy at its very best indeed.
Because Helena got singled out from being part of a bigger team, she resumes her Huntress and decides to work alone. Can't say I blame her after all she went through.
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no subject
Date: 2011-07-25 06:24 am (UTC)-Second moral of the story: running around as Batgirl--even just to help out in an emergency like NML--hits Babs too close to home. But be willing to take a bullet or two for her daddy twice, then you'll have her blessing to run around as Batgirl. Hypocrisy at its very best indeed.-
I wonder how Babs would've reacted if she knew it was Huntress. Or if Huntress had managed to pull off some spectacular wins first.
Still, I think it makes sense to be more ok with choosing a successor than someone taking the role on their own.
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Date: 2011-07-25 10:27 pm (UTC)I really don't see that as hypocrisy, just being human.
Babs has no knowledge of who this Batgirl is, she has no reason to trust her beyond Batman's vague and evasive comments. Given her last experience with Bruce appointing a replacement (Jean Paul as unbalanced Bat-loon) her reticence is entirely understandable.
The fact the new Batgirl then goes on to prove herself in a manner which has deep personal significance to Babs, which causes Babs to appreciate that this woman CAN do some good, is a perfectly natural reaction I think.
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Date: 2011-07-25 11:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-25 06:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-25 07:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-25 07:32 am (UTC)However, given that this isn't the case in this story, his hostility towards her is completely unjustified since she did try doing things *his* way. At least she stood her ground when he gave her shit for situations that were beyond her control, though.
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Date: 2011-07-25 08:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-25 07:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-25 09:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-25 07:26 am (UTC)The recruitment of Cass as Batgirl reminds me of a Davil Mitchell monologue about how the public perceive only "front line" policing as "proper police work. Ideally, what would happen would be at the start of their shift, the police officers would all put on their uniforms, or peel them from the bodies of their fallen comrades, grab a truncheon from the pile and go out and catch criminals for 8 hours, at which point they would return with a van full of ne'er do wells to put in the cells and let somebody else worry about silly things like "paper work" and "bags of evidence."
Was that costume still warm when Cass put it on?
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Date: 2011-07-25 07:32 am (UTC)"No. I hold you responsible. As I hold myself."
Yeah, Batman's a complete and utter asshole for . . . holding himself to impossible standards and requiring people who wear his symbol to meet those exacting standards?
Huntress didn't ask to be Batgirl, and she wasn't chosen for the role. She took the role and responsibility on herself. And when Batman holds her responsible to her actions and failures, she bitches and moans and complains, throws a hissy fit and quits on him.
And people wonder why it took so long for me to warm up to her.
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Date: 2011-07-25 08:22 am (UTC)I don't have a problem with her here, she did have a good point herself, facing Two-Face and his gang there would not have worked, but I can see why Batman was pushing really hard too. Maybe if he had stressed 'we're here to do the impossible,' rather than 'follow orders!' things would've worked out better between them.
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Date: 2011-07-25 08:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-25 07:48 pm (UTC)Helena did everything she could. Batman didn't. And he's pushing his guilt off on her. A human response but not one to have in the middle of a crisis situation.
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Date: 2011-07-25 07:51 pm (UTC)Cass' introduction to the title immediately afterward could have been handled better though.
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Date: 2011-07-25 09:15 am (UTC)This is a culmination of nearly a decade of similar behavior with Batman.
In fact, I'm going to sum it up; a Decade of Batman/Huntress:
BATMAN: YOU CAN'T KILL CRIMINALS!
HUNTRESS: YOU'RE INSANE, I DON'T CARE IF THEY GET HURT OR KILLED IN THE COURSE OF WHAT I DO!
BATMAN: YOU'RE INSANE, YOU CAN'T KILL CRIMINALS!
HUNTRESS: YOU'RE INSANE!
BATMAN: YOU'RE INSANE!
HUNTRESS: YOU'RE INSANE!
BATMAN: YOU'RE INSANE!
HUNTRESS: YOU'RE INSANE!
BATMAN: YOU'RE INSANE!
HUNTRESS: YOU'RE INSANE!
BATMAN: YOU'RE INSANE!
HUNTRESS: I DON'T FOLLOW YOUR RULES, AND NOW I'M LEAVING!
BATMAN: ...
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Date: 2011-07-25 09:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-25 09:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-25 05:42 pm (UTC)*scribbles notes into his writing book* This is some riveting stuff!
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Date: 2011-07-25 11:03 am (UTC)Helena didn't ask to be Batgirl, that's true, but it's also NOT Batman's ID to control or make demands of. He's overlooking that everything he does is because HE has appointed HIMSELF as Batgod in NML.
I had a similar reaction to his "firing" of Dick as Robin. Bruce declares that not only is their partnership now over, which is stunningly dickish move to make toward someone who is, essentially, his son, but almost as bad he forbids him from ever being Robin again, which he has absolutely no right authority, or power, to do. Robin is not his identity to control, it was Dick's, but that is irrelevant because it doesn't line up with what Bruce wants.
Here again, it doesn't occur to him (for the umpteenth time) to factor in that other people ARE NOT HIM and it is an act of insanity to assume they are.
Yes, the role has expectations of it (though (with all respect to Babs fans) given that Babs as Batgirl was always at best a second tier hero, perhaps not THAT many) but Helena has performed admirably in the role. Lives HAVE been saved by her presence, more people are now breathing because she was there than if she had not been. She might not be the perfect follower, but she never claimed to be.
You don't judge whether someone else is doing their best by comparing them to you, but by comparing them to THEM. If Helena had been slacking, or foolish, or incautious, then yes, she is a liability, but "Not agreeing with Batman" is NOT a capital crime.
Again, he completely fails to show her respect for what she has done, but essentially castigates her for failing to be him.
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Date: 2011-07-25 02:41 pm (UTC)In this case, I honestly don't think it was what Huntress did or didn't do that caused her to lose the mantle, those were just excuses. This felt more like a usual episode of the Batman/Huntress relationship, where Batman shows his lack of approval for Huntress and her donning a Bat costume only spiked those feelings even more. In which case, Batman himself failed to look past his own feelings to look at the bigger picture.
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Date: 2011-07-25 03:14 pm (UTC)It wasn't his holding himself to unrealistic standards that made him an arsehole. It was his poor treatment of Huntress during an emergency situation and later deciding that he couldn't control the city as it was on his own--after he gave Helena shit for not being able to handle an impossible situation by herself--that made him a hypocritical arsehole.
Huntress didn't ask to be Batgirl, and she wasn't chosen for the role. She took the role and responsibility on herself. And when Batman holds her responsible to her actions and failures, she bitches and moans and complains, throws a hissy fit and quits on him.
It is true that Helena took on a responsibility by becoming Batgirl. But as much as Helena lacks discipline in her style of fighting, it was still completely erroneous for Batman to expect her to be able fight off against Two-Face and an army of 200 scared people on her own and still win. Even she acknowledged that this was a lost battle and even asked for back-up, but all she got was "you're on her own." So her "bitching and moaning" is actually quite understandable given the circumstances, and she wouldn't have been anymore helpful dead than alive.
Mod note
Date: 2011-07-25 05:19 pm (UTC)Cheers.
Language, Man [Re: Mod note]
Date: 2011-07-25 06:58 pm (UTC)Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; besides, bitches and moans is an idiom, and isn't meant to denigrate anyone's gender. It's used for people, not just women. And would you complain if I were talk about issues being or not being "black and white" in relation to the new and original Mr. Terrific?
Re: Language, Man [Re: Mod note]
Date: 2011-07-25 07:10 pm (UTC)It may not be meant to denigrate gender, but that ain't the same as being weight-free. Especially, I gotta say, when you say "people, not just women" in the next sentence. Sure, you meant "all people, not only the female ones", but what you said was so-similar to the 'men are default, women are different' trope that is seen so irritatingly often.
Come on - your last sentence? Seriously? Do you want to make my comment asking for a smidge more delicacy in man vs woman commentary about all language ever as regards the entire kyriarchy?
You haven't been warned or penalised. I just made a request that you're free to think about and make your own way around, at your leisure, before you comment further in similar contexts. I appreciate that it may have come as a surprise or seem like a bother but finding fault and nitpicking at my request almost immediately isn't really useful. It just creates ill feeling.
Re: Language, Man [Re: Mod note]
Date: 2011-07-26 12:36 am (UTC)::shrug::
If you say so.
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Date: 2011-07-25 05:30 pm (UTC)I'd also say that Batman is holding her to those responsibilities in the most assholish way possible. Does he offer advice to improve? Does he, with his criticism, make constructive comments? Does he apply his own evaluation of Huntress' problems to helping in his dealings with her? No. If anything, he seems to go out of his way to be as vague and unhelpful as possible ("trying isn't enough", "What am I supposed to do?" - "More."). These aren't the actions of someone who desires to make the most out of a situation, or who aims to make an honest judgement of someone's ability. These are the actions of someone who's quite clearly already made up their mind, has zero interest in attempting to salvage the situation, and whose manner of address is designed (because Batman isn't stupid) to be as uselessly authoritarian as possible towards someone who he himself admits has problems with taking orders.
From these scans, Huntress certainly doesn't come out perfectly. But Batman has bought out all of Gotham's thread farms, weavers, and rope production facilities so that he can give her all the rope she needs to hang herself.
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Date: 2011-07-25 05:57 pm (UTC)You never see Batman fail and say "Whoops, that's the last straw. I'm going to take up knitting somewhere safe where I can't screw up any more. I'm going to be Clark's stay-at-home boyfriend."
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Date: 2011-07-25 06:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-25 07:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-25 10:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-25 10:21 pm (UTC)Okay, Take Two
Date: 2011-07-26 12:42 am (UTC)"No. I hold you responsible. As I hold myself."
Yeah, Batman's a complete and utter asshole for . . . holding himself to impossible standards and requiring people who wear his symbol to meet those exacting standards?
Huntress didn't ask to be Batgirl, and she wasn't chosen for the role. She took the role and responsibility (of Batman, recall) on herself. And when Batman holds her responsible to her actions and failures, she whines and moans and complains, loses her temper and quits on him.
And people wonder why it took so long for me to warm up to her.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-25 04:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-25 04:45 pm (UTC)Yeah the drama serves the purpose that it's meant to serve, but after a while of using the same formula it loses its mojo.
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Date: 2011-07-25 05:43 pm (UTC)"NOOO!! I WILL NOT HAVE MY OUTFIT BE MADE X-TREME!!!" *Jean Paul is standing behind and she realizes that* "What it's your fault! You and your cape flaps and talon gauntlets that had a flame thrower attached to them. What were you thinking?!" *Jean Paul gives puppy face and runs off*
Also being that this was the event that got me fully into batman books for an entire year, even I knew that the moment this Batgirl would be revealed that she loose the identity to someone else. And when that someone else was Cass, it didn't bother me at all. Course Cass also had one heck of a opening two part story.
You should just go for broke and post the remainder of Huntress's time in No Man's Land. Of her times with the crazy SWAT captain and it all culminating with her once more an army of thugs this time Joker's.
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Date: 2011-07-25 07:44 pm (UTC)Bruce doesn't.
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Date: 2011-07-25 11:42 pm (UTC)The fact that Bruce failed to clarify to Babs that Helena only took on the mantle because she realised she was more intimidating as a Bat-figure than she was as Huntress didn't help either, and his aloof explanation of "I didn't tell her to be Batgirl...it was like this when I got back...none of the bad things that's happened to you was ever my fault" made him look unsympathetic at best. I'd like to think that if she would have known Helena's real intentions she would have lightened up a bit.
The fact that she later decided to put aside her own personal feelings to allow Cass to take on the mantle while completely ignoring what Helena did accomplish as Batgirl rubbed me the wrong way too. So at best, I have mixed feelings about Barbara's reaction despite being considerably more understandable than Bruce's.
"You should just go for broke and post the remainder of Huntress's time in No Man's Land. Of her times with the crazy SWAT captain and it all culminating with her once more an army of thugs this time Joker's."
That last part was where she got shot by the Joker has already been posted, but I'll post a few pages from her fighting off Captain Petit's army if that's okay with the mods.
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Date: 2011-07-25 06:26 pm (UTC)If he'd even broached the subject with her, to make sure she knew before the reports about a new Batgirl came in, it wouldn't be so bad.
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Date: 2011-07-25 07:06 pm (UTC)How... how can Bruce even say those things after what he did to Helena... I take it this is before the Joker situation?
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Date: 2011-07-25 08:20 pm (UTC)Batman: You can change in the bedroom.
Cassandra: *strips right there and puts on the outfit*
Batman: Um, well....welcome aboard?
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Date: 2011-07-25 08:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-26 12:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-26 02:24 am (UTC)Seriously, Barbara, it's a costume, a title, and you haven't worn it in most of a decade at this point. Getting this up in arms about it is really immature. You can feel free to ask the same questions, just don't be pissed some "girl" decided to put on a "bat-themed" costume.
Christ, this is like when Barbara yelled at Cass for not being able to read, despite not actually helping her learn to read in the last few years, all over again. Like Bab's "MY PARENTS ARE DEEEEAAAAAAD!!" is "I'M NOT GETTING MY WAAAAAAAAY!"