turtlefu: (Default)
[personal profile] turtlefu posting in [community profile] scans_daily
I tried to hold this off, but I can't do it any longer. The statements made by many of the DC creative teams at SDCC have been misguided at best and downright OFFENSIVE at worst.

I know a lot of this has already been posted, but I figured putting it in a concise post is best. My commentary is in "Quotes" while DC's statements are in bold.

From Comic Alliance, I'm getting info about what their saying and it's pretty nasty. Oh, and believe me, it just gets worse from here!

But first: legality!

Cargo Pants!


 

DC’s Flashpoint Panel (Thur Morning)

A fan asks if DC is going to create more “mainstream” minority characters. They point out that Blue Beetle was on Smallville.

“Yes, a guest spot, paired with a white guy, on a single episode of a now-ended TV show! That is so mainstream!

 

DC’s ‘The New 52’ Panel (Thur Afternoon)

Cliff Chiang says Wonde Woman now has “retractable pants”.

“Yeeeeeeeeeah. I’m not touching this with a ten-foot pole”

DiDio says “Yes” to Stephanie Brown.

“YAAAAAAY!”

DiDio says that returning Babs to Batgirl (EVEN THOUGH SHE’S BEEN ORACLE LONGER) was because DC wants to return all their characters to their most “accessible” versions.

“WHAT!? No, really, WHAT THE FUCK!? APPARENTLY DC thinks that differently abled characters are not accessible!? Why, because all your abled-bodied readers are too privileged to understand a differently abled character!? Because Barbara development as Oracle is too complicated compared to, say NIGHTWING!? FUCK YOU DC”

Wonder Woman will continue to be compassionate, not a warrior. BUT they are presenting her as a warrior in marketing.

“Presumably, then, to appeal to all the MACHO ASPECTS of the male comic fandom. Yeah, and presenting her as one thing in marketing and showing her as something else in the actual comic is going to work SO WELL, DC.”

When asked why DC’s female creators drastically decreased, DiDio avoided the question and asked the audience who they wanted that they currently work with. He implied that Nicola Scott got hired on something in the future.

“Yay Nicola Scott! Maybe one day she won’t be “THE CHICK” artist and will be appreciated just for her talent! Also, REALLY GOOD JOB with the derailment and avoiding the question, DiDio.”

Cornell says Demon Knights will include a character named Horsewoman who will use a (medieval??) wheelchair. He says she can’t replace Oracle, but he’s excited.

“See, this is DC’s thinking. They view diverse characters as quotas, and when they get rid of one, they just need another to maintain their DIVERSITY! Yes, I know Cornell said Horsewoman CAN’T replace Oracle, but by implying one wheelchair-using characters COULD replace another, DC/Cornell shows their attitudes towards minorities is just about quota. They don’t care about characters and development, they care about tokenism!”

Apollo and Midnighter are still gay. Cornell says he wanted to get a “They’re Still Gay” T-Shirt.

“Of course DC wants to keep their ONLY gay heroes! They already filled their lesbian quota with Kate!

<>

DC’s Batman Panel (Thur Late Afternoon)

Mike Marts (Batman group Editor) says they have 4 issues from Williams and 1 and half from Amy Reeder for Batwoman.

“This is good news for me, but given the amount of time they’ve had to work on this, I expected more to be done. So, I’m still worried about delays. Also, YAY, Amy Reeder, THE ONLY OTHER FEMALE CREATOR, is still on Batwoman”

Gail Simone says that 1) Stephanie Brown will return and 2) Babs as Batgirl is just out of college.

“1) Yay Stephanie Brown, 2) You lied to us Gail. In your interview you said Oracle’s history would not be changed. Well, this is a HUGE change, and one that effectively erases all of the character development Oracle had.”

Winick continues to be unable to use any adjectives to describe Catwoman other than “sexy” and “dirty”. Also, Helena Kyle doesn’t exist.

“Do I even need to comment on this? This is just disgusting how we are in 2011 and a female character can be presented this obviously as fap material. Yes, Catwoman is sexy, but if that is the ONLY way you can describe her, then you have a SERIOUS problem. And, of course, having a baby seriously gets in the way of someone being “SEXY” right, Winick?”

Winick says Batwing’s arch nemesis is called Massacre, who is shown stabbing a man through the back.

“I don’t really have a problem with this alone, but wait until Winick elaborates on a later panel!”

Lobdell says Starfire is going to be more alien, and that she will Roy and Jason as her teachers on humanity.

“Oh, bullshit. Starfire never needed anybody to “teach her” about humanity. Also, icky subtext with two "bad boys" teaching a naive, sexy alien women about humanity. Starfire is strong, and compassionate, and emphatic. She’s human enough. What is WITH DC and making their extra-terrestrial characters more ALIEN!? I thought they wanted their characters to be more “accessible”!?”

 


 

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Date: 2011-07-25 10:58 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kd_the_movie
[b]DiDio says that returning Babs to Batgirl (EVEN THOUGH SHE’S BEEN ORACLE LONGER) was because DC wants to return all their characters to their most “accessible” versions.[/b]

Goddamn you, silver and bronze age fetishism.

Date: 2011-07-25 10:58 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
APPARENTLY DC thinks that differently abled characters are not accessible!?

It's like some awful "In Soviet Russia" joke.

In DCnu, world has problem accessing you.

Date: 2011-07-25 11:06 pm (UTC)
tsunamiwombat: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tsunamiwombat
Personally I do like the idea of Starfire being more 'alien' but in a strictly cultural and logical sense- adapting to humanities lower technoligy threshhold, cultural mores, and lack of powers. There's no need to make her Teen Titans Starfire (though I still have that voice in my head as her voice).

That being said she's not Superman, she's powerful but she isn't living in World of Cardboard. Whats to teach?

Date: 2011-07-25 11:08 pm (UTC)
tsunamiwombat: (IAmUpset)
From: [personal profile] tsunamiwombat
Starfire aside, I'm suprised you didn't even go into the way that woman and her daughter were treated when they dared to question the great and powerful DC Panel. But it has been brought up in other threads I suppose.

Date: 2011-07-25 11:09 pm (UTC)
kagome654: (Not sure if serious)
From: [personal profile] kagome654
I'm confused on the Wonder Woman thing. Why treat 'warrior' and 'compassionate' like they are mutually exclusive?

Date: 2011-07-25 11:11 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
Ohhh myyyy goshhhh "accessible" is so not the word to use about Batgirl-not-Oracle Babs. Cor blimey.

I gotta say, Cornell really does seem to be a good faith creator. The impression that I've got from him is that, while he is employed by DC who may well view the two characters as interchangeable, he draws any parallels himself because he understands that it was a blow to lose Oracle and her chair, and that people need someone to relate to, and that for many people something is better than nothing. His comments on Apollo and Midnighter sound (to me) like he's honestly raring to go, to write a romantic love story between them. He's DC, but I think that he is full of change-from-the-inside potential.

I.. pretty much agree with everything else you say.

Date: 2011-07-25 11:36 pm (UTC)
rickperry: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rickperry
Retractable pants....?

Date: 2011-07-25 11:48 pm (UTC)
rdfox: Joker asking Tim Drake, "'Sup?" from Paul Dini's "Slay Ride" (Default)
From: [personal profile] rdfox
I... I'm trying to... argh, just ONE positive thing... oh, OK, here we go.

Positive: Cornell, at least, seems to be genuinely trying to give the fans what they want instead of reboot to 1975.

Otherwise...

Date: 2011-07-25 11:52 pm (UTC)
venatosapiens: griffin vulture (Default)
From: [personal profile] venatosapiens
Ok, so I'm not understanding why the retractable pants thing is offensive beyond a general sense of "Wait, really? You're really doing that? That's...stupid." It certainly comes off as really strange.

The rest of this only pissed me off mildly, because honestly, I don't even give a shit anymore. I honestly wish I cared more, but my pull list has shrunk to Hellboy, BPRD, and various Vertigo titles. I've given up on the rest of it.

But hey, what about that American Vampire, eh?

Date: 2011-07-25 11:55 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
"You lied to us Gail. In your interview you said Oracle’s history would not be changed. Well, this is a HUGE change, and one that effectively erases all of the character development Oracle had."

In a different panel, Gail said that Barbara had worked on advanced degrees at a far earlier age than most people, and she was disable and working as Oracle around the same time.

Date: 2011-07-25 11:56 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Newsarama have a round up of the atmosphere at the DC panels, and does draw attention to their treatment of some of the fans.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/sdcc-2011-mood-of-dc-fans-110725.html

Date: 2011-07-26 12:02 am (UTC)
perletwo: classic headdesk (lois headdesk)
From: [personal profile] perletwo
*sigh* DC, why don't you just come right out and say you're going for the Boomer market and have done with it? It would get you in a lot less trouble than this dancing around the point.

Date: 2011-07-26 12:08 am (UTC)
q99: (Default)
From: [personal profile] q99
They don't really get having diverse characters and creators... either how to do it or why it's a good thing.

Date: 2011-07-26 12:09 am (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Lex Luthor)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
I'm surprised you didn't post when one of the creators referred to Lois Lane as a trophy wife. And from what I read..some of the damn fans actually nodded in agreement to that shit.

Date: 2011-07-26 12:11 am (UTC)
venatosapiens: griffin vulture (Default)
From: [personal profile] venatosapiens
So, a quick question, but it's been something that's been kind of bothering me.

"Mansplaining."

I've obviously come across the term, and I'm not denying that such a thing exists and was on full fucking display during those panels. There was some seriously condescending shit said and done by a lot of people. What I honestly don't understand is what differentiates the term "Mansplaining" from similarly dismissive terms applied to women. If someone could explain this to me, I'd be grateful.

Date: 2011-07-26 12:41 am (UTC)
nickfury90: movie-verse Spidey (Default)
From: [personal profile] nickfury90
Mmm, "accessible". There's a wheel-chair accessible joke in here, but I'm above that kind of thing.

I'm gonna assume the Wonder Woman warrior thing is to appeal to the super hero action appeal of superhero comics. What do you think is better for marketing and getting potential consumers interested in your superhero book: a picture of Wonder Woman kicking ass, or a picture of Wonder Woman giving out a compassionate hug or on the couch letting somebody cry on her shoulder. Successful superhero books with lots of character-driven action and drama tend to emphasize the exciting, action bits in the advertising. Whether that's a decisively "macho" elements is up to debate, I suppose.

I also don't understand the part about Midnighter/Apollo. If they had gotten rid of them, or made them straight, fans would complain that DC hates diversity, and this is a step back for LGBT characters, and yadda yadda. Now that he clarified that yes, they're here, and yes, they're queer, they're still the bad guys? Damned if you do...

Can really disagree with any of the other points, though. There's a lot of stupid shit said at that convention.

Date: 2011-07-26 12:52 am (UTC)
arbre_rieur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] arbre_rieur
Beyond the "accessible" (eek!) comment, I don't see how most of these comments are rude or offensive, unless you define "rude" as having an opinion you disagree with.

Date: 2011-07-26 01:37 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
I just want to say something about the accessability comments, especially since the article mentions one young fan upset that Batman and Green Lantern retain their history and it's intimidating.

So here it is... Go to WIKIPEDIA!

Additional note

Date: 2011-07-26 01:54 am (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Default)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
Lobdell says Starfire is going to be more alien, and that she will Roy and Jason as her teachers on humanity. “Oh, bullshit. Starfire never needed anybody to “teach her” about humanity. Also, icky subtext with two "bad boys" teaching a naive, sexy alien women about humanity. Starfire is strong, and compassionate, and emphatic. She’s human enough. What is WITH DC and making their extra-terrestrial characters more ALIEN!? I thought they wanted their characters to be more “accessible”!?”

I wanted to add something there as that interested me. In one of the articles, one of the creators (most likely Lobdell) said that Starfire's history with Dick Grayson is still intact...so with that in mind..would would she need anyone to teach her about humanity when Dick could've easily taught her?

I mean I don't see a problem with her hanging around Roy, both are former Titans and the Titans tend to be like family so there's that. Still though...this is one of those contradicting things to come out in regards to this reboot. I mean if her and Dick's history is still in continuity then...what the hell has she been doing while on earth all this time that she now has to learn about humanity?

Date: 2011-07-26 02:06 am (UTC)
leikomgwtfbbq: (NO.)
From: [personal profile] leikomgwtfbbq
DiDio says that returning Babs to Batgirl (EVEN THOUGH SHE’S BEEN ORACLE LONGER) was because DC wants to return all their characters to their most “accessible” versions.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

Accessibility and identification are a matter of good characterization and writing, not whether a character has the same life situation as the majority of the readers.

Request Clarification

Date: 2011-07-26 02:08 am (UTC)
jeyl: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jeyl
Is the new Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) going to inhabit a universe where certain individuals have the means to enhance, repair and alter their physical bodies to become stronger, more dependable and borderline invincible?

Date: 2011-07-26 02:22 am (UTC)
marco: (Gehck!)
From: [personal profile] marco
This has all been such a mess. I was on CBR last night on the Wondy forums and saw something mentioned too.

I just can't see how these people don't realize how ignorant and insensitive they're being. Like, do their brains process what they're about to say and all put up flags or anything? Or do they ever sit back and rethink any of this stuff? No? Probably not? I wouldn't be surprised if they don't...

Even though there are times when listening to the fans would just cause more silliness, I think they really, really need to sit down and listen to the fans sometimes. Because if your fans are telling you that you have no real, mainstream minority characters, etc, then you have a problem.

Ugh. I hope that whoever takes over DC is smarter than this.

Date: 2011-07-26 02:50 am (UTC)
terabient: Poorly drawn Noel Vermillion (Default)
From: [personal profile] terabient
When asked why DC’s female creators drastically decreased, DiDio avoided the question and asked the audience who they wanted that they currently work with.

It's not the fans' job to find or suggest female creators, guy. If people express an interest in female creators, it's on the editors to seek out and hire them - that's an editor's JOB. Editors have resources for finding talent that readers can't possibly match.

Trying to dodge the question by asking readers to suggest creators just highlights how poorly you're doing your job.

Date: 2011-07-26 03:30 am (UTC)
golden_orange: trust me, i'm wearing a vegetable. (Default)
From: [personal profile] golden_orange
Okay, I'm actually one of those who wasn't that bothered by 'Barbara-as-Batgirlgate', but... 'accessible'? Yeesh, Didio. Yeesh. At the very least, very bad choice of words.

“See, this is DC’s thinking. They view diverse characters as quotas, and when they get rid of one, they just need another to maintain their DIVERSITY! Yes, I know Cornell said Horsewoman CAN’T replace Oracle, but by implying one wheelchair-using characters COULD replace another, DC/Cornell shows their attitudes towards minorities is just about quota. They don’t care about characters and development, they care about tokenism!”

I'm not sure I fully follow you here, but I have to say, I think you're being pretty unfair, to Cornell at least (I'm happy to acknowledge that DC in general has a tendency to subscribe to tokenism); I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that because he was actively saying that Horsewoman can't replace Oracle, he was somehow saying that she could replace Oracle, and then getting angry at that. What else is he supposed to say? He's clearly aware of, acknowledging and trying to actively address both Oracle's popularity and concerns of tokenism here, yet you seem to be twisting his words just a little bit to try and make him a perfect example of tokenism, and then getting angry at this interpretation rather than what he's actually saying. Whatever interpretation we can place on the word 'can't', he's clearly acknowledging that one character in a wheelchair can't replace another hugely popular and well-loved character in a wheelchair in the eyes and affections of her fans simply by virtue of the fact that she's also in a wheelchair (which would be an example of an attitude of tokenism); if he hadn't said any of this, I can't help but feel that you'd still be on here getting angry at him for clearly thinking of his character as a replacement for Oracle and how much an example of tokenism that was (which would at least be a bit more justifiable than what you're doing here); damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

In any case, I hate to be That Guy, but... well, we haven't seen anything at all of Horsewoman yet. It's way too soon to say that Cornell is just using her to fill up a quota and has no interest in her as a character or the way she develops and getting angry at that. He may well be; I can't say for certain. But neither can you.

No word about Superboy?

Date: 2011-07-26 04:09 am (UTC)
silverzeo: Superboy (as a man) crying over Tana Moon. (Depress Sad)
From: [personal profile] silverzeo
Like his Cadmus days are gone? Tana Moon was never part of his life? Or how his life itself was like a reversal order of CLark's?
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