DC at SDCC: Provocative (Grant Morrison in a Dress) is Good? (Final Part, Saturday)
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scans_dailyThis is it! The final part of this massive clusterfuck! But first, legality!
DC’s New 52 Panel (Saturday Morning)
Winick says that with Batwing, he’s trying to mix superheroes with real-world issues in the Democratic Republic of Congo. He called Africa “a very politicized and ravaged country”.
“Now THERE’s that white privilege I was talking about! Good job we have mighty whitey to tell us how horrible of a “COUNTRY” Africa is! I get a huge feeling Winick is going to use this book as his mouthpiece for his opinions on the politics and culture of Africa, which he will grossly misunderstand and possibly turn into a "look at those SAVAGES" situation.”
DiDio made a list of heroines in starring roles. He says DC has the best percentage of females in starring roles.
“DC, DIVERSITY IS NOT ABOUT NUMBERS. Why don’t you guys GET THAT!? Also, I call bullshit on that anyway. Besides, Marvel is employing far more female creators (Deconnick, Immomen, Rios, Liu, etc.)”
Morrison says that Cass still exists in the DCU.
“Yay Cass!”
The same Batgirl fan from the panel who asked about heroines on covers asked this panel why there weren’t more female creators in DC. DiDio says, GET THIS, they hire the best writers and artists they can! And the audience applauds! Morrison mocks her by saying he looks great in a dress, then turns around and encourages the female fans to submit work to DC.
“So, DiDio implies that the female talent out they isn’t good enough for DC, and then Morrison mocks a justifiably upset fan. Then he turns around and saves face by encouraging the female fans to submit their work. Presumably to be told that they aren’t good enough for the wealth of talent that DC only employs, like the kind that puts out Cry for Justice or the Rise of Arsenal.”
DC’s The Dark and The Edge Panel (Saturday Afternoon)
Lemire says Animal Man’s main character is actually Maxine, Buddy’s daughter. She gets her own powers.
“Which is interesting, but I can’t help but feel it takes away from the “everyman” qualities Buddy was supposed to have”
Cornell SPECIFICALLY calls Horsewoman a “diversity character, to state it crudely”, and compares her to the Man with No Name [Clint Eastwood’s Western Character]
“Good Job Cornell, you just took away the good feelings I had for you. Turns out his wheelchair user was just there for diversity cred!”
Cornell says Apollo and Midnighter are still gay, but they meet for the first time in the first issue, and their romance is slow. He also says that if he changes anything he won’t expect to come out of the “Gays in Comics” Panel alive.
“Okay, I do like the idea that they don’t immediately jump down each other’s pants, like they did originally. But apparently Cornell feels like the only thing wrong with changing their sexualities would be the negative fan reaction? Uh, you shouldn’t change their sexualities because that would homophobic, not because you fear how the fans would react.”
This one is the worst. DC replies to the negative fan reaction towards Harley’s new costume by saying “Provocative is good”, but says that Harley still has the same personality.
“REALLY DC, why is PROVOCATIVE only good for your FEMALE heroes, so you can dress them is as objectifying clothes as possible, but your male heroes wearing briefs on the outside is SO BAD it needed to be changed IMMEDIATELY.”
“Oh and just to add, included were some pages from an unknown book showing a gratuitous scene with strippers. I think it was either from Blackhawks, Suicide Squad, or Sgt. Rock.”
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Date: 2011-07-27 08:19 pm (UTC)Also, your picture is borked. Host it with abload.de or something.
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 10:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 09:19 am (UTC)And even if it does turn out that he'll lose that aspect, that doesn't have to be a bad thing. The stupidest thing about the DCU relaunch is the way they are reverting characters that had assumed new roles back to previous incarnations (Oracle, Dick!Batman). I'm glad the writer has a new kind of story in mind for Animal Man & family, rather than rehashing the same old stuff just because that's how he's "supposed to be".
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Date: 2011-07-27 08:30 pm (UTC)out of curiostiy does Jewish count as white? i'm not entirey clear on that.
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Date: 2011-07-27 08:37 pm (UTC)Which is not to say that I haven't been treated like shit by Gentiles before, or just treated with lack of respect/concern borne of ignorance.
However, I was not badly or disrespectfully treated by the dominant religious group/culture in my country because of the color of my skin.
If that makes sense.
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Date: 2011-07-27 08:44 pm (UTC)i hope you don't mind me asking, but are you a Jewish Male?
side bar, i don't think it's fair to say that he is going to go off and
IMHO that is a pretty extreme leap. might he use it as a mouth piece? will he get some things wrong.... maybe... but we don't know. I for one often get confused over whether or not Africa is a country or a conitnent (give me a few seconds to think and yeah, i know its a continent. though my first thought is usually country) and this is coming from a Gay latino male.
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Date: 2011-07-27 08:52 pm (UTC)All this stuff about the "country" Africa makes me wonder if anyone besides me remembers Tales From The Heart. Maybe I'll dig around in the closet this weekend and see if any of my copies are scan-worthy. It's the only comic I own that attempts to depict an African country realistically. (Specifically, it's set in Bangui, and told from the POV of a White American who joins the Peace Corps in the 1980s.)
And not that I'm an NYT cheerleader, but a few years back there was this.
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:05 pm (UTC)anyways. part of the reason I like Judd Winnick is his outspokeness about gay rights and gay issues. can he get soap boxy? yes (especially early on). BUT he has good intentions and for the most part he does well.
i'd like to beleive that here too he has good intentions... only the book will tell.
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:13 pm (UTC)Oh, and naturally I dug out my TFTH comics and realize that I should have said the main setting is "Bangui, in the Central African Republic."
[facepalm] I should be working at DC. :o :o :o
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:21 pm (UTC)again these are all just my opinions.
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Date: 2011-07-27 10:51 pm (UTC)Forgive my OT flippancy, but this has reminded me of something from my childhood: a bunch of us got in trouble because we were playing "Grannie Bashers". The adults thought we were playing some sort of 'violence against the elderly' game, but actually we had no idea what the term really meant and had misinterpreted the phrase we'd heard on the news: we were just pretending to be the violent elderly. Grannies, bashing - not grannies, the bashing of.
Language: it is so troublesome!
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Date: 2011-07-27 11:02 pm (UTC)but yeah, The TV show Drawn Together, (A horribly funny irreverant adult cartoon (ummm not ADULT, but Adult...)) has a gay character and as a "Coming out Party" they decided to throw him a "Gay Bash" and he was like... :Ummm you know what that means?!? "
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Date: 2011-07-27 11:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 11:23 pm (UTC)See also: The Beatles, Shakespeare.
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Date: 2011-07-27 11:33 pm (UTC)I know how you feel, though. I grew up about ten minutes from Asbury Park, and I've still always thought that a little Bruce Springsteen goes a long, long way. :p
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Date: 2011-07-27 11:37 pm (UTC)(Oh man, it's set in Bolton. WHY CAN I NOT ESCAPE YOU, BOLTON??)
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Date: 2011-07-28 03:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 03:48 am (UTC)im sorry but i am of the mentality that you know what, sometimes you HAVE to kill. Max, needed killing, Joker? NEEDS to die... Drug dealers? Pimps? Child/Spousal abusers.... Dead or severely beaten themselves.... Or Maybe they could take a few cues from "The Doctor" (ie see Family of Blood)
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Date: 2011-07-28 07:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 10:16 pm (UTC)If it's the same book I remember, I totally loved it and read it many times. Wish I still had it, honestly.
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Date: 2011-07-27 10:32 pm (UTC)It would be tricky to post the Epic stuff, good though it is, because I don't want to crack the spines. But I can do some of the B&W stuff at some point, maybe... Hmmm...
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Date: 2011-07-27 10:39 pm (UTC)I'd love to see anything you've got.
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Date: 2011-07-27 10:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 08:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 09:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 09:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 09:45 pm (UTC)seriously though. when winnick writes well, he write WELL, when he doesn't... he comes off saturday morning special-ish....
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Date: 2011-07-27 10:15 pm (UTC)Like I mentioned here and elsewhere, I just don't want to see him be one of those writers that tries to use Africa to make a message or feel like since his story takes place in Africa that it has to have a message.
I think another thing that I got stuck on was that he only said it was politicized and ravaged. There was no further, "but it's also this-" or "but here's that too-". There was nothing good there. Just "politicized and ravaged". Even though I have faith in him, I feel (maybe reasonably) worried.
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Date: 2011-07-27 10:36 pm (UTC)part of it is that they can only tell you so much (Didio is keepin such a tight hold on everything he won't let any of them say much, okay to be far PART of it might be the writers trying to sell thier story too, but you can tell in the interviews what is THEM and what is Editorial.)
so they use Buzz words and stuff that will catch people's attention.
Winnick might not be the most elegant writer. I think the thing is when he
"tires" to write a message, it gets clunky.... but when he doesn't "try" he ends up tell a good story WITH a message and it is seamless.
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Date: 2011-07-27 10:44 pm (UTC)Africa is both tumultuous in terms of its history and its politics, and it allows us to go in so many places we really can't go when it comes to talking about the United States. Because the reality in Africa is that it is a beautiful, majestic and also incredibly dangerous continent. When writing about superheroes here in the States, there is a lot of stuff I have to make up. That's just my function. In Africa you truly do have revolutions and wars being fought, dictators being overthrown, governments trying to be instituted where there are warlords or entire armies made up of children -- just crazy, over the top stuff that should be the stuff of fiction but isn't. These are the things we get to tap into, this is the landscape we get to work in and the canvas we get to work on, along with the superheroes. It is high adventure, don't get me wrong. Lots of guys in costume, lots of super bad guys, but set against this volatile landscape, which will make it interesting
(interview here: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p
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Date: 2011-07-28 01:59 am (UTC)That wording was... Well. I don't know. It wasn't all bad, but it felt so othering at times. Earlier while I was out, I thought of how someone used "exotic" to describe a particular character and how while I like the sound of the word (because I used it all the time growing up), I've come to hate it because it is very othering. The whole premise is how "different" it makes the subject, and it's one of those things to me that comes off feeling like when people try to justify the model minority thing. ("Oh, you're Asian, so you must be smart!" ; Totally doesn't see how racially insensitive if not outright racist that statement is.)
Also, it does feel like it comes from such a place of privilege. It's like the matter where people don't believe something is feminist unless a man points it out, and it also reminds me a little of a post (and some connected links) from Racialicious about the novel and movie The Help. I think another part that bugs me about all this is he talks about it as if America doesn't have a lot of this stuff in its history (and sadly, some of it ongoing now). It's all kind of awkward.
I'm glad at least that Winick won't try to politicize the comic and anything (going by what he says), but again, I don't like that he feels that stuff has come up just because the comic is set in Africa. (And again, in his very first lines, he calls Africa dangerous. He probably means a very kind of dangerous than is typically used for the NA, but it's phrased as though plenty of people here don't live dangerous lives. It's the implications that go with it to me.)
On the plus side, I'm interested in what he'll do with the supporting cast. On the down side, I'm sad that it sounds like Africa only has one superhero (or at least, Bat family member) to cover it. The parallel to the Batfamily of Gotham to Batwing's is close yet distant there.
It all feels kind of touch and go... From everything about what Winick sees Africa as, how he parallels Africa to the US and the way his research sounds. I'm glad he's doing research, but to me, it doesn't make me feel like we're going to get something out of it the way we did when Bryke thoroughly researched for AtLA. It feels kind of close, but kind of stunted because of this focus on the "danger" and "corrupt" and "ravaged" aspect. (I say focus because he brings it up a lot.)
Really, we can only wait and see. I think I may be more interested in how discussions and impressions here will go when scans are finally posted, more than I'm interested in the comic itself.
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 10:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 09:42 pm (UTC)I think it's fair to say that he is likely going to go off and be Winick about it.
Which isn't quite the same, but that doesn't necessarily mean better.
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Date: 2011-07-27 10:01 pm (UTC)But yeah, white Jews definitely have White Privilege.
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Date: 2011-07-27 10:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 10:27 pm (UTC)Yeah, ironically, if you mentioned home-grown Antisemitism, most people would probably think "lower class" and someplace like the Deep South. But the worst shit I dealt with was when I was going to private school in a very Old Money suburb in N.J. for a couple of years. (I'd still think I'd rather eat a plate of jalapenos washed down with kerosene than ever set foot in that town again-- three decades after the fact. Bleah.)
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Date: 2011-07-27 11:01 pm (UTC)I speak as a white Arab. I have grown up with white privilege, and most people do not know I am anything else. I have cousins who are not white. And there exists, even among Arabs, racial discrimination based on skin color in spite of the common Arab ancestry.
It just goes to show the intersection of identity.
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Date: 2011-07-28 03:41 am (UTC)Yes, I realize that Jews are generally accepted in the US, but we're still frequently considered an "other," even if an acceptable one. Even people who have nothing against Jews will talk about how the US is a "Christian" nation.
I could elaborate further, but I don't want to turn this into a rant about my personal beliefs.
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Date: 2011-07-28 03:54 am (UTC)To a good chunk of the world, no. They'd hate Jews no matter what color they are.
In the US and Europe, yes.
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Date: 2011-07-28 06:05 pm (UTC)There is Antisemitism in other parts of the world, true. But experiencing it would be contingent on whether or not people knew I was Jewish. If they don't know, then I'm still assumed to be the default faith/culture associated with the majority of White people.
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Date: 2011-07-28 08:50 pm (UTC)I think it depends on where you go. Some areas will there will be no change, others enhanced, or diminished or negated all together.
" But experiencing it would be contingent on whether or not people knew I was Jewish."
Not always, there is the assumption that can effect you. It's happened to me before.
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Date: 2011-07-28 05:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 08:33 pm (UTC)I don't think Morrison was mocking HER, i think he saw a difficult situation and was trying to diffuse it through humor. was it ill timed and not at all well thought out? MOST DEFINATELY!
Dido on the other hand? (yeah i heard the audio) yeah he sounded really hostile
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:03 pm (UTC)Though honestly his suggestion for women to submit to DC is also not very helpful. DC doesn't accept blind submissions. He may or may not know that, so once again, trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. But yea, still not winning any points for that advice.
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 09:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 08:56 pm (UTC)Seriously, DC, you hired fucking Rob "FUCK! MY SPINE!" Liefeld. You're telling me you couldn't find anybody -male or female- better than him?
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:01 pm (UTC)Glad to see people are paying attention though.
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 12:44 am (UTC)And, I don't know about Conner, but I know Cooke was interested in doing a Wonder Woman title that young girls could read. And not only was DC not remotely interested (because everyone knows you can't sell superheroes to anyone other than straight white 14 to 25-year-old dudes... What's that? Tiger & Bunny? Nope, can't hear you. Girls don't like superheroes.), they passed him over for Rob fucking Liefeld.
There's not enough rageface in the world.
The DC Logic is
Date: 2011-07-28 07:21 am (UTC)Who sold well in the 90s? - Rob Liefeld
Rob Liefeld = Massive sales!
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Date: 2011-07-27 08:59 pm (UTC)I still look foward to Seven Samurai (/Magnificent Seven, same difference). in midieval times. I think Horsewoman may have been crippled already, then Editorial or PR or whoever just ran with it in a misguided effort to make up for Babs getting het bipedal locomotion back.
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:07 pm (UTC)“Okay, I do like the idea that they don’t immediately jump down each other’s pants, like they did originally. But apparently Cornell feels like the only thing wrong with changing their sexualities would be the negative fan reaction? Uh, you shouldn’t change their sexualities because that would homophobic, not because you fear how the fans would react.”
No offence mate, but I think that you might be over reacting a little. He, like Morrison, was trying to be funny but seems to have been ill timed in that regard so people think that he was just trying to be flat out offensive.
And in regard to Horsewoman, yeah it was ill advised for him to bluntly say that she was there for diversity's sake, but considering they're doing away with Oracle this might be the only forum that DC has avaliable now to show that a wheelchairbound woman can just be as badass or strong a character as Barbara in Batgirl mode (in what I'm almost certain is an exosuit).
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:12 pm (UTC)yeah i think so too, her suit seems very tech heavy.
I agree with your post here. Morrison and Cornell were just trying to lighten the mood. they had good intentions, just bad timing. They Both SEEM to love and respect the characters they are writing (With morrison also claiming to be a big fan of Oracle, Cass, and Steph, if i am correct he hated her death, but don't quote me there)
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:31 pm (UTC)To be honest, Dan Didio... Doesn't. He treats DC as a business, which it is, but it seems that he's going for what he feels would be best for sales or to promote publicity for a comic, even if it's at the detriment of storytelling.
For example, Mark Waid that that Dan hated 52, and would loudly walk around proclaiming as such. Didio would go on to say that Countdown was "52 done right", even though it was a massive critical failure.
I believe that the logic behind this was that since 52 was a pretty insular series (with Infinite Crisis acting as a buffer at the beginning and One Year Later acting as one on the end), people didn't have to buy the series to know what was going on elsewhere in the DCU for the most part.
Having a major event that wasn't a required read could argueably be seen as being part of a bad business plan.
So Countdown, which dipped and weaved into various other series that tied into it's story, for example, Amazons Attack, Death of the New Gods, Salvation Run etc. etc. it made having to buy EVERYTHING a requirement to understand what the heck was going on most of the time. This lead to some really bad storytelling where characters would appear and disappear with no explanation as to WHY.
And also, the fact that the series was being dictated to writers instead of Paul Dini etc. being allowed to create something on their own lead to the storyline dissolving into an incoherent mess as they were being passed snippets of Grant Morrison's plans of Final Crisis without getting the whole picture.
For example, Mary Marvel going evil. In Final Crisis her being possessed by Desaad made sense because Morrison's versions of the New Gods had a history of that kind of thing, and Desaad (the God of Perversion) taking over her brain goes a lot way to explain her sudden inclination for microskirts and get literally getting off of absorbing magic.
In Countdown, they had the note that Mary was going to go evil, but no explaination as to WHY this was. SO they had to make up a reason. A reason that seemed to fit in with the boneheaded idea that having evil powers made you an evil person, and that moral grey was for suckers.
And even when they eventually managed to rescue the storyline with Mary managing to struggle through her own little redemptive arc, the fact that she was redestined to get possessed by Desaad made her sudden and, most offensively, fully concious decision to go evil again after getting her old powers back made the whole plotline completely pointless.
Heck, IF they had had Darkseid forcing the powers on her that would have been in keeping with the following storyline, but Noooo, people who do bad things are automatically EVILLLLL (unless they are Hal Jordan) and even when it looks like they're turned to the lightside, the lure of villainy calls to them like heroin to a character from Trainspotting.
Blech. This has gone on for a long time, but I did my dissertation on the media's coverage of Wonder Woman, Superman and Batman, so I guess this might be force of habit a little.
I'll be quiet now.
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 10:07 pm (UTC)Even people here, they read Cry for Justice and all start hating on Robinson, calling him a hack and completely overruling any option of reading his earlier, pre-Didio stuff because they're under the assumption that it'll be more of the same.
But Starman, his most famous work, is really, REALLY good. And has a lot more depth to the characters than a lot of DC's, or even Marvel's, current output. Heck, it even has GLBT characters in it without later DC comics' tendency to seemingly yell "SEE! WE'RE DIVERSE! WE'VE GOT A GIRL WHO LIKE'S CHICKS IN OUR BOOK!", which is something even the likes of Kathy Kane had to deal with before they nailed down an actual personality for her.
Robinson has made it clear, or at least as clear as he can with being fired for arguing like what happened to Chuck Dixon when he complained about his storylines in Robin and BatO being interupted by Batman RIP, he was given updates and memos as to what he had to put into the story regardless as to whether it made good sense storywise.
This lead to the storyline being kind of disjointed, as they said that he had to put certain things in there to get publicity or to boost sales, even if they didn't fit with the characters. So, he was told to make the team proactive, so they yelled about being proactive and going after the villains before they did their evil deeds... when the plot required them reactive to what Prometheus was doing. He was told to have the team do morally questionable things... like torture people, even though it made no sense for the characters to do so.
Considering his positive protrayal of women in his other work, the sudden inclusion into the story of Ollie recounting an anecdote of Hal Jordan getting Huntress and Lady Blackhawk drunk and sleeping with the two of them (and Ollie CONGRATULATING HIM FOR IT) or the Black Canary, the head of the JLA at the time, being left an ineffectual, weeping wreck because Ollie threat a tantrum and stormed out... is more than a little weird. Or the frequent shots of the male members of Hal and Ollie's JUSTICE Club blatently staring at Supergirl's boobs...
I mean, even Gail Simone didn't know where those things came from, and she's actually met and is/was friends with Robinson, so I'm going to just assume that they were things that he was told to put in on the assumption that the editorial think "straight teenage boys are our main audience, what better than the implication that Green Lantern had a sex sandwich with those two chicks from Birds of Prey to boost sales!" or something.
Another thing that I know for certain though, was that Robinson was told by the editorial that BOTH Roy and Lian had to die in the course of the story in order to publicise the series and make it another Essential Read. When Robinson actually stood up and said that killing both of them would just be gratuitious in a series that already had Australia's only gay superhero getting skinned and turned into Prometheus' rug and numerous other superheroes from around the world getting maimed or horribly murdered, he was told that he could only save Roy, at the cost of one of his arms.
Presumably because they realised that they could get more money out of a grieving ex-heroin addicted cyborg than they could out of an eight year old girl with no powers, no father, no home, whose continued existance would be balancing on the constant threat of limbo because, as Sin proved, Ollie would probably just presume that her continued stay with her father's adopted family would be too risky. Then shipping her off to an abbey or nunnery or something until she could come back as a teenager, either as a new sidekick, villain or as a creepy, CREEPY love interest.
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Date: 2011-07-27 10:16 pm (UTC)But some things baffle me, like having Starman refer to himself as gay even though he was previously written as specifically not wanting to refer to himself as gay.
But hey, why can't writers get worse over time? Mark Millar did it, Garth Ennis did it, Frank Miller did it.
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Date: 2011-07-27 10:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 11:06 pm (UTC)If he was going to show Mikaal go through a change like that, he would at least say something to INDICATE that he went through that change, even a throwaway line like "Well, I'm an Earthling now, so I might as well identify like one". But to have a character go from "Your Earthling terms of sexuality do not accurately describe me, I am not "gay"" to "I am gay" just doesn't make any sense without anything to bridge us in between those two stages.
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Date: 2011-07-27 11:22 pm (UTC)of course all this just my opinion
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Date: 2011-07-27 11:25 pm (UTC)Which is the more likely explanation, that a character when through a major change off-screen that is not the least bit alluded to, even through a throwaway line, or a writer who hasn't written a character in more than 10 years forgot how to write said character?
The former, by a significant margin. I don't even consider it as "major change", just a matter of semantic convenience and brevity for him.
He's either A) decided that in human terms he IS gay and consciously chooses to identify as such or B) has taken the perfectly human reaction to being asked for the umpteenth time if he's gay and decided to cut out the accurate but somewhat highfalutin' "Your Earthling terms of sexuality do not accurately describe me, I am not "gay"" and decided; You know, I'm TIRED of explaining things at length to people whose opinion has little interest to me. "Yes, I'm gay, now go away, I'm with my boyfriend".
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Date: 2011-07-28 12:00 am (UTC)Robinson made a pretty big point of NOT having Mikaal identify as gay, and it's something I always liked because it didn't play into the "sexuality is binary" bullshit. And then, all of sudden, without any IN STORY explanation, he DOES identify as gay. Because, yes, having him decide "For convenience, I'll identify as gay" certainly WOULD make sense, but we HAVEN'T been given that reasoning. For all intents and purposes, that's something you just made up.
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Date: 2011-07-28 12:05 am (UTC)Without any sort of bridge, it's hard to reconcile the two characters, because they are just very different.
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Date: 2011-07-28 12:38 am (UTC)and the musical thing... umm thats really an issue to you? how much of his likes and dislikes did we know about before?
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Date: 2011-07-28 03:51 am (UTC)Frank Miller at least has the "9/11 drove him crazy" excuse. Not that it didn't drive *me* crazy.
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Date: 2011-07-27 10:25 pm (UTC)I thought the original plan was for both Lian and Mia to die. The idea Mia died protecting Lian, and then Lian died anyway, would explain Green Arrow killing Prometheus a little bit more. As it stands, it looks like he just did it so Roy wouldn't.
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Date: 2011-07-27 10:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 10:28 pm (UTC)when people say "I am not going to buy Batgirl because they uncrippled her, even though Gail is wrtiting" it makes me sad. Yes, i don't agree with them doing that. Had gail had a choice in it at all (which she didn't) she has gone on record as saying she would not have. But since the decision was made, and the offer for her to write it was made to her, she took it, and honestly I am glad she did, because if not for her i am afraid to think of what would happen to Barbara.
Agreed with you there too about Cry for Justice. The story itself had LOTS of good parts to it. But the parts that DID NOT WORK were clearly parts taht were dictated he HAD to write in. You could tell the parts Robinson wrote and the parts that were "assigned him"
Also JT Krul (nice man, met him at comic con) because he was associated with Green Arrow coming out of CFJ many people would not give his work a chance (Blackest Night Green Arrow was GOOD, Ollie was not just a ball of green ragey- mcragerson! he was conflicted and remorseful ect.) His Green Arrow Series itself has been REALLY good, and the last time i like Green Arrow Smith/WInnick were writing...His teen titans stuff has been the best in a long time (and he REALLY fought to go all the way to #100 because he felt the fans deserved that).
The writers do the best they can with what they are given (side note, Even Morrsion has his limits it seems, he likes several of the characters, didn;t like what they did to stephanie and wanted to continue with Dick as batman, but DC overrulled him, though yes, as the rock star i think he has more pull than most writers, which is why i take him at his word when he says Cassandra is still around, and stephanie is still around)
So yeah.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 12:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 12:34 am (UTC)the way i look at it is i might miss out on great stories, just because i don't like that they changed it. (again that's me, not everyone else) if they stay true to the characters, and tell good stories, then i am willing to give them a chance.
if you or anyone else don't want to, that is your choice and i don't fault you for it. its your money, your right, and your choice.
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Date: 2011-07-28 01:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 01:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 10:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 12:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 09:54 pm (UTC)yeah he really lost it there.
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:55 pm (UTC)WHOA NOW, turtlefu, think you need to just
TAKE A BREATH
time to CALM YASELF DOWN, son
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Date: 2011-07-27 11:00 pm (UTC)I do like like Cornell's writing, and I do remember that he has previously written a wheelchair user in Soldier Zero.
But the Horsewoman comment still irks. It definitely represents a huge part as to why I'm pissed about DC's DIVERSITY! stunt.
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Date: 2011-07-27 11:34 pm (UTC)In isolated panels his words may well appear as callous as the worst of DC's representatives, I won't argue that anyone should research every panel member before having any reaction to their words in the SDCC context.
But for the little it's worth I do believe that he has an honest investment in diversity for the sake of truthfulness and it being the right thing to do.
I'm a fan of his writing, but I also admire him as a person.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 12:15 am (UTC)Rather than making combustible lemons.
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Date: 2011-07-28 08:29 am (UTC)BURN IT DOWN!
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Date: 2011-07-28 09:07 am (UTC)Mod Note
Date: 2011-07-28 12:57 am (UTC)While I appreciate that you aren't taking an obnoxious tack or ignoring the OP's points, and that you're basically just respectfully disagreeing, but telling someone that zie is, for example, overreacting or zie should calm down is considered a silencing/dismissing/derailing tactic.
It would really help head off potential crossed wires if "over reacting" could be a phrase that's avoided. Thanks.
Re: Mod Note
Date: 2011-07-28 08:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 07:16 am (UTC)And I remain totally unconvinced of medieval wheelchair being anything besides utter stupidity. No self-propelled chairs existed until the 20th century; even the wealthiest disabled person in that time would be being pushed (a few kings had that one), a carrying "chair", or crawling (what most cripples did if sticks/crutches didn't work for them).
And if they wanted diversity, how about some modern diversity? Vets with C-legs are almost trendy right now.
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Date: 2011-07-28 02:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 09:08 pm (UTC)Uh . . . then she wouldn't be wearing that. She'd be wearing something goofy.
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:17 pm (UTC)Next you'll be telling me breasts come in different sizes and that women don't stand every where posing sexily.
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 09:08 pm (UTC)I honestly don't know what to make of Winick's comments anymore. I don't think I can be hopeful about what he'll present of Congo (or Africa period), but I'll still browse through Batwing just to see how it'll go. (I know I won't be touching Catwoman.)
Is it bad that I wish someone would effectively make a point to DiDio? Maybe not in the most polite or reasonable way possible. (I think I couldn't be bothered by that post about Marvel yesterday because DC has just made me so ...I just have a serious headache with them.)
For a while, I just thought, once this Flashpoint and new origin stuff ends and gets retconned or whatever, everything will be okay! But ya know... No. It probably won't be. Why is it not that easy? ;n;
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Date: 2011-07-27 09:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 09:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 02:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 10:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 11:11 pm (UTC)I would totally read a frivolous, beefcake-y mini about a bunch of male heroes fucking about and having trivial adventures.
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Date: 2011-07-27 11:25 pm (UTC)The "better" redundant once you add the superheroes.
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Date: 2011-07-27 11:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 11:39 pm (UTC)There's a good fan artist on another board I frequent. He offered to draw us all as superheroes, and I requested a variation of the Seventies Black Widow outfit. Because to me that's way sexier than boob windows and bare midriffs and shit.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 11:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 11:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 10:19 pm (UTC)For a long time, part of the "hook" for Apollo and Midnighter was that they had no idea who they were *before* they were Apollo and Midnighter. They don't even know if they knew each other before or not. The only person who knew was Henry Bendix, and he never told them. Bendix played "multiple origins" with Apollo and Midnighter once, IIRC.
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Date: 2011-07-27 10:35 pm (UTC)"It's a fictional city, but based much in the way Metropolis is supposed to be New York City and Gotham, depending on who you want to debate about it, is either a dark version of New York or based on Chicago just as far as geographics and the general feel of it. We are actually basing this off a couple of cities in Africa, just because Africa is, again, a whole continent. If you think of one city in North America it's very different than another on the continent -- Toledo, Ohio is very different from any number of cities you might find in South America."
He also talks about Africa as a continent elsewhere in the interview. I'm guessing that calling it a 'country' here was a slip of the tongue, or a transcriber error. Say what you will about Winick, it's clear that he is at least aware of Africa as a massive, diverse continent.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 10:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 07:20 am (UTC)Wait, so he says that cities within the US are different, but it's okay to build a fictional city in Africa and make it a generic blend of various African cities? Good luck getting the coastal cities to work in the landlocked Congo, son.
Winick may fail to suck at this, but the mere idea that there is one Batman for all of Africa remains so unreasonably prejudiced that I am not buying it. (Southeast Asia Batgirl and Central American El Batperson are not much better.)
no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 10:56 pm (UTC)So then shouldn't it be called Animal Woman? Or maybe Animal Girl, depending on her age.
(Yeah, I know, there's no real reason the name of the comic has to be the name of the main character, and sometimes for valid storytelling reasons the viewpoint character, who might get the title, isn't the "main character" that the stories revolve around, but it feels to me like they're saying, "But we know the book won't sell if we blatantly focus it on a girl, so we're generously hiding her off-putting femaleness behind a man who'll appear on all of the covers and lend his name to her.")
no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 10:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 11:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 11:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 11:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 11:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 11:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 11:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 11:27 pm (UTC)I was probably looking for faults. This whole reboot is just making me more and more cynical.
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Date: 2011-07-27 11:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 11:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 11:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-27 11:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 12:08 am (UTC)You know, the way that Winick does, and has a repeated history of doing. Winick has the magic ability to turn EVERYTHING into a VERY SPECIAL EPISODE in the most in-organic way possible. I cringe at his Green Arrow and Green Lantern runs.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 12:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 02:08 am (UTC)I honestly wouldn't mind seeing a writer focusing on the nice parts of Africa for once. I only feel a bit comfortable saying that because everybody always wants to show how terrible things in Africa are, so you know that story will get told. But I don't see anyone telling stories that, even if they aren't fluffy and nice (and modernized), don't have so much dipping into how horrible it is. There is no calm slice of life for Africa, I guess.
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Date: 2011-07-28 09:15 am (UTC)Which is expectable, obviously, but if you're hankering for some fiction about any part of Africa that doesn't feature child soldiers, that's maybe where to look. A lot of Nollywood productions are in English, if that helps.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 09:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 09:26 am (UTC)I happen to catch random movies that come from different parts of Africa (and the Ethiopian restaurant we frequent generally has a movie or some music videos on), but I don't think I've ever come across anything on here~.
Thanks for the link!
(I just think it's sad that for us to use Africa so much in media, Africa doesn't come out looking so good 98% of the time.)
no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 09:39 am (UTC)Also my interest in Nollywood led to seeing an exhibition of the Ife bronzes, which were some of the most beautiful sculptures I have ever seen in my life. If more people saw those.. the world could only get better.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 12:02 pm (UTC)That's just the part that makes me a little sad and wary. It's less that I know the writer (Winick in this case) won't tell a good story, but I'd just be disappointed if a writer I loved ended up telling the same story that everyone else has been saying. (Because seriously, I get it now America. Africa is a sad country with starving children everywhere and little modern technology and child soldiers everywhere and war and horrible stuff. ...And nothing ever bad happens here.)
Ohh, I am very curious! I will have to look those up now!
no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 12:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 07:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 07:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 07:38 am (UTC)I'm glad to hear that other African-continent heroes exist and get mentioned, but that doesn't really cut it. The USA has tons of superheroes and Batman still mostly handles the Gotham area.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 09:29 am (UTC)(Some people are making it sound like there's only places in Africa that are ravaged or something or, ironically enough, like there's a lack of countries to use from the continent.)
no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 12:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 12:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 02:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 06:56 am (UTC)Also, we should totes send them to "Africa" and see if the locals can scam them out of their retirement funds.
Diversity character? Cornell, your name is on my cane's list. And your book is off mine.
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Date: 2011-07-28 08:16 am (UTC)This is Morrison, supposedly. Didio's going to be more of a problem.
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Date: 2011-07-28 08:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 08:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 12:41 pm (UTC)I know...
Really...my brain just imploded while thinking about that new Harley... it's just...so bad!
Won't happen again, boss! *bows down humbly*
Mod note
Date: 2011-07-28 09:18 am (UTC)Re: Mod note
Date: 2011-07-28 12:41 pm (UTC)I know...
Really...my brain just imploded while thinking about that new Harley... it's just...so bad!
Won't happen again, boss! *bows down humbly*
Re: Mod note
Date: 2011-07-28 12:46 pm (UTC)..Now back to work, peasant! *kick*
no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 11:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 11:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 12:49 pm (UTC)Ivy isn't really a prancer, is she?
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Date: 2011-07-28 01:17 pm (UTC)It might not be a big step forward, and it certainly doesn't play to the bullshit 'iconic' argument DC are currently peddling, but to me, it at least says that DC are willing to try something new rather than rely on the BTAS crutch her character's relied on and which doesn't work in the main DCU.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 01:21 pm (UTC)Making a female character about how much of her tits the reader can see is not a step forward of any size. It is a boring, boring, insulting regressive step exactly NOWHERE, and in the case of Harley it's an actual step back.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 01:45 pm (UTC)You consider a precariously-laced corset to be no more provocative than a bathing suit? Either you have a fantastic time at the beach or find fetish clubs very boring.
I'm pretty sure that it is generally agreed a skimpy corset is more provocative wear than a bodysuit. Hence Jean Grey and Emma Frost's respective costumes.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 02:30 pm (UTC)Both are used to the same purpose, given I'm sure we could count the number of provocative Poison Ivy images out there with her breasts heaving until the cows come home.
On another note, the corset doesn't do a lot for me in a sexual sense at all. So I'm not arguing for it on those grounds, and I'm fairly certain there's guys who feel the same way. The idea of Ivy's bathing suit of leaves does interest and excite me a lot more than Harley's corset, especially when she's drawn by Nguyen.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 02:46 pm (UTC)Furthermore, as a former gymnast, the bodysuit made sense for Harley because that is what many gymnasts wear.
For Ivy, her clothing has always had a low-cut, but Harley's hasn't.
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Date: 2011-07-28 03:08 pm (UTC)Even if it's not to your taste, I'm sure you realise a corset as outerwear is a provocative garment. It's not based solely on the amount of skin covered/uncovered. Compare Emma Frost and Wonder Woman's costume; even with the debates about the bathing suit's impracticality, Emma's costume is still more provocatively, and clearly intended to be sexual, than Diana's.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 05:54 pm (UTC)Uncovered skin tends to communicate vulnerability, which is why we so seldom see super-dudes running around with a ton of bared skin.
I'm sad when I realize that even Emma's original Eighties get-up was pretty demure compared to what she usually wears now.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-28 06:25 pm (UTC)And while I think Ivy can be drawn unnecessarily a lot of the times, she's a completely different character than Harley. Ivy is more like a "femme fatale" who uses sex to get what she wants. Harley isn't really a "sexy" character. She's supposed to be deranged, unhinged, yet somehow goofy. I think the new costume tries too hard to cater to the first two points and ignores the third.