turtlefu: (Default)
[personal profile] turtlefu posting in [community profile] scans_daily

This is it! The final part of this massive clusterfuck! But first, legality!
 

Maybe they'll get around to the black guy... eventually

 

DC’s New 52 Panel (Saturday Morning)

Winick says that with Batwing, he’s trying to mix superheroes with real-world issues in the Democratic Republic of Congo. He called Africa “a very politicized and ravaged country”.

“Now THERE’s that white privilege I was talking about! Good job we have mighty whitey to tell us how horrible of a “COUNTRY” Africa is! I get a huge feeling Winick is going to use this book as his mouthpiece for his opinions on the politics and culture of Africa, which he will grossly misunderstand and possibly turn into a "look at those SAVAGES" situation.”

DiDio made a list of heroines in starring roles. He says DC has the best percentage of females in starring roles.

“DC, DIVERSITY IS NOT ABOUT NUMBERS. Why don’t you guys GET THAT!? Also, I call bullshit on that anyway. Besides, Marvel is employing far more female creators (Deconnick, Immomen, Rios, Liu, etc.)”

Morrison says that Cass still exists in the DCU.

“Yay Cass!”          

The same Batgirl fan from the panel who asked about heroines on covers asked this panel why there weren’t more female creators in DC. DiDio says, GET THIS, they hire the best writers and artists they can! And the audience applauds! Morrison mocks her by saying he looks great in a dress, then turns around and encourages the female fans to submit work to DC.

“So, DiDio implies that the female talent out they isn’t good enough for DC, and then Morrison mocks a justifiably upset fan. Then he turns around and saves face by encouraging the female fans to submit their work. Presumably to be told that they aren’t good enough for the wealth of talent that DC only employs, like the kind that puts out Cry for Justice or the Rise of Arsenal.”

DC’s The Dark and The Edge Panel (Saturday Afternoon)

Lemire says Animal Man’s main character is actually Maxine, Buddy’s daughter. She gets her own powers.

“Which is interesting, but I can’t help but feel it takes away from the “everyman” qualities Buddy was supposed to have”

Cornell SPECIFICALLY calls Horsewoman a “diversity character, to state it crudely”, and compares her to the Man with No Name [Clint Eastwood’s Western Character]

“Good Job Cornell, you just took away the good feelings I had for you. Turns out his wheelchair user was just there for diversity cred!”

Cornell says Apollo and Midnighter are still gay, but they meet for the first time in the first issue, and their romance is slow. He also says that if he changes anything he won’t expect to come out of the “Gays in Comics” Panel alive.

“Okay, I do like the idea that they don’t immediately jump down each other’s pants, like they did originally. But apparently Cornell feels like the only thing wrong with changing their sexualities would be the negative fan reaction? Uh, you shouldn’t change their sexualities because that would homophobic, not because you fear how the fans would react.”

This one is the worst. DC replies to the negative fan reaction towards Harley’s new costume by saying “Provocative is good”, but says that Harley still has the same personality.

“REALLY DC, why is PROVOCATIVE only good for your FEMALE heroes, so you can dress them is as objectifying clothes as possible, but your male heroes wearing briefs on the outside is SO BAD it needed to be changed IMMEDIATELY.”

“Oh and just to add, included were some pages from an unknown book showing a gratuitous scene with strippers. I think it was either from Blackhawks, Suicide Squad, or Sgt. Rock.”

Date: 2011-07-27 08:19 pm (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
In what way does Maxine getting powers take away from Buddy's everyman aspect?

Also, your picture is borked. Host it with abload.de or something.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:41 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
I think that was sarcasm.

Date: 2011-07-28 09:19 am (UTC)
squirle: (Default)
From: [personal profile] squirle
Not nececerally. Buddy is an everyman character, but he has always been dealing with supernatural stuff. He's super himself. It's how he is written, how he reacts to that stuff, that makes him an everyman. If he remained an everyman character despite his meeting with Grant Morrisson, he can remain one with a super powered daughter, but it depends on how he's written.

And even if it does turn out that he'll lose that aspect, that doesn't have to be a bad thing. The stupidest thing about the DCU relaunch is the way they are reverting characters that had assumed new roles back to previous incarnations (Oracle, Dick!Batman). I'm glad the writer has a new kind of story in mind for Animal Man & family, rather than rehashing the same old stuff just because that's how he's "supposed to be".

Date: 2011-07-27 08:30 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
“Now THERE’s that white privilege I was talking about! Good job we have mighty whitey to tell us how horrible of a “COUNTRY” Africa is! I get a huge feeling Winick is going to use this book as his mouthpiece for his opinions on the politics and culture of Africa, which he will grossly misunderstand and possibly turn into a "look at those SAVAGES" situation.”

out of curiostiy does Jewish count as white? i'm not entirey clear on that.

Date: 2011-07-27 08:37 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
I think White Jews in the modern-day United States have White privilege.

Which is not to say that I haven't been treated like shit by Gentiles before, or just treated with lack of respect/concern borne of ignorance.

However, I was not badly or disrespectfully treated by the dominant religious group/culture in my country because of the color of my skin.

If that makes sense.

Date: 2011-07-27 08:44 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
yeah... i kinda get what you are saying now.

i hope you don't mind me asking, but are you a Jewish Male?

side bar, i don't think it's fair to say that he is going to go off and he will grossly misunderstand and possibly turn into a "look at those SAVAGES" situation.”

IMHO that is a pretty extreme leap. might he use it as a mouth piece? will he get some things wrong.... maybe... but we don't know. I for one often get confused over whether or not Africa is a country or a conitnent (give me a few seconds to think and yeah, i know its a continent. though my first thought is usually country) and this is coming from a Gay latino male.

Date: 2011-07-27 08:52 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
No. Ask away. :) I can't even remember whether I mention gender in my profile. I'm female, cisgendered, and hetero.

All this stuff about the "country" Africa makes me wonder if anyone besides me remembers Tales From The Heart. Maybe I'll dig around in the closet this weekend and see if any of my copies are scan-worthy. It's the only comic I own that attempts to depict an African country realistically. (Specifically, it's set in Bangui, and told from the POV of a White American who joins the Peace Corps in the 1980s.)

And not that I'm an NYT cheerleader, but a few years back there was this.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:05 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
thanks. see the reasons I defend Winnick probably is colored by my sexuality (probably my gender to a certain degree to be sure, but i tend to lean towards female oriented/femenist thought... ummm this could get complicated....)

anyways. part of the reason I like Judd Winnick is his outspokeness about gay rights and gay issues. can he get soap boxy? yes (especially early on). BUT he has good intentions and for the most part he does well.

i'd like to beleive that here too he has good intentions... only the book will tell.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:13 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (luthor1*)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
No problem. Most of what I know of Winnick comes from this space and a few other fan boards. I don't really have much experience with his writing.

Oh, and naturally I dug out my TFTH comics and realize that I should have said the main setting is "Bangui, in the Central African Republic."

[facepalm] I should be working at DC. :o :o :o

Date: 2011-07-27 09:21 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
yeah his GL was good, it brought out good issues such as Gay Bashin (and i don't mean fun parties where everyone is happy.... damn you Drawn Together!) it was... very soap boxy and the character dissapeared after (though i think so did Winnick shortly after that arc) but his Green Arrow stuff was great and he REALLY made Mia Shine when Smith left. (again some stuff WAS saturday morning cartoony, but regardless it was good) And his Mia/Redhood interactions were great. Hell his Redhood in general is good (red hood as in jason todd not... ummm okay) he is one of the only ones that seems to be able to write jason todd as a character and not as "The bad one"

again these are all just my opinions.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:51 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
issues such as Gay Bashin (and i don't mean fun parties where everyone is happy.... damn you Drawn Together!

Forgive my OT flippancy, but this has reminded me of something from my childhood: a bunch of us got in trouble because we were playing "Grannie Bashers". The adults thought we were playing some sort of 'violence against the elderly' game, but actually we had no idea what the term really meant and had misinterpreted the phrase we'd heard on the news: we were just pretending to be the violent elderly. Grannies, bashing - not grannies, the bashing of.

Language: it is so troublesome!

Date: 2011-07-27 11:02 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
okay i LOL'ed at that. just because you know... the innocence of Youth... :D

but yeah, The TV show Drawn Together, (A horribly funny irreverant adult cartoon (ummm not ADULT, but Adult...)) has a gay character and as a "Coming out Party" they decided to throw him a "Gay Bash" and he was like... :Ummm you know what that means?!? "

Date: 2011-07-27 11:21 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (violet1*)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
Would that be like the old Monty Python sketch about "Hell's Grannies"?

Date: 2011-07-27 11:23 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
I couldn't say! As far as the Pythons go, I mostly ride on my British laurels, i.e. being from the same countryishthing is totally the same as having experienced and long-considered all of their work.

See also: The Beatles, Shakespeare.

Date: 2011-07-27 11:33 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (logo1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
Well, it's here, if you're curious.

I know how you feel, though. I grew up about ten minutes from Asbury Park, and I've still always thought that a little Bruce Springsteen goes a long, long way. :p

Date: 2011-07-27 11:37 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
Haha, exactly like that! Only we'd pretend to beat each other up, instead of young men.

(Oh man, it's set in Bolton. WHY CAN I NOT ESCAPE YOU, BOLTON??)

Date: 2011-07-28 03:41 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Indeed. Jason told Mia "You and I are from the streets. For reals, dawg." That was interesting, although I'm not sure where it was going. Jason would have a hard time convincing anyone "Murder is fun!"

Date: 2011-07-28 03:48 am (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
i don't think he was saying is fun, but he was saying it was justified...

im sorry but i am of the mentality that you know what, sometimes you HAVE to kill. Max, needed killing, Joker? NEEDS to die... Drug dealers? Pimps? Child/Spousal abusers.... Dead or severely beaten themselves.... Or Maybe they could take a few cues from "The Doctor" (ie see Family of Blood)

Date: 2011-07-28 07:08 am (UTC)
feyandstrange: too stupid, didn't read. (ts;dr)
From: [personal profile] feyandstrange
I had to go check whether the CAR bordered the Congo, and I am hopeless at keeping track of which Congo is which these days. But hey, we at least checked! And I bet if we were writing a comic instead of a blog post we'd have tried harder.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:16 pm (UTC)
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)
From: [personal profile] nezchan
Tales From the Heart (didn't the title also include "Of Africa)? Oh, I think I had that! That was about a bunch of Peace Corps kids building a school, wasn't it? I recall some locals saying of the cocky guy "He walks like an elder" and he thinks it's a compliment.

If it's the same book I remember, I totally loved it and read it many times. Wish I still had it, honestly.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:32 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (brainy1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
Yeah, I think the story you're thinking of is "The Temporary Natives." If it was square back, in color, and from Epic. (Rather than either Entropy Press or Slave Labor, both of which published other, shorter stories in B&W with color covers.)

It would be tricky to post the Epic stuff, good though it is, because I don't want to crack the spines. But I can do some of the B&W stuff at some point, maybe... Hmmm...

Date: 2011-07-27 10:39 pm (UTC)
nezchan: Navis at breakfast (Default)
From: [personal profile] nezchan
Yeah, it was The Temporary Natives, I remember that now. Fantastic story, really good art, I totally fell for it. I always wanted to see more, but never did have any other volumes.

I'd love to see anything you've got.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:48 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (jan1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
The weekend isn't that far off. Let me see what I can do. :)

Date: 2011-07-27 08:53 pm (UTC)
marco: (Default)
From: [personal profile] marco
I kind of have faith in Winnick, but that he called Africa (whether he meant Africa or Congo) politicized and ravaged worries me. It feels like another case of "Africa will always be the dark continent, torn apart by war. Look at the people suffer and unable to get their stuff together." The only saving grace there is we have our hero who is black and not white saving them, if it comes to that (here's hoping anyway, lol). I'm in a very confused and worried state, because my opinions on both him and his statements are warring with me now. (And when put beside all he had to say about Catwoman, I just don't know if I even want to try...)

Date: 2011-07-27 09:35 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
Well, he also talks about how it's going to be as much of a superhero story, if not more, so I don't think we're going to get "dark continent" out of him.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:42 pm (UTC)
marco: (ethereal)
From: [personal profile] marco
Yeah, that's one part that makes me a little relieved. (I hope we don't get "the dark continent" out of him either way.)

Date: 2011-07-27 09:45 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
Yeah Winnick means well. but so long as he can strike a balance between his "message" and the story *clears throat* "All will be well" :D

seriously though. when winnick writes well, he write WELL, when he doesn't... he comes off saturday morning special-ish....

Date: 2011-07-27 10:15 pm (UTC)
marco: (ethereal)
From: [personal profile] marco
Oh, I know he does. The only place I really wonder what/how he means is with Catwoman, and I know he isn't going into the book as willfully ignorant (and insensitive) as some would be, I know Winick isn't perfect. Even though I enjoy plenty of his stuff and think his writing is good, I know not everyone gets every issue perfect (for instance, I can talk about issues that have the racial/ethnic and feminist intersection, but once it gets down to just the feminist side, sometimes things get complicated for me).

Like I mentioned here and elsewhere, I just don't want to see him be one of those writers that tries to use Africa to make a message or feel like since his story takes place in Africa that it has to have a message.

I think another thing that I got stuck on was that he only said it was politicized and ravaged. There was no further, "but it's also this-" or "but here's that too-". There was nothing good there. Just "politicized and ravaged". Even though I have faith in him, I feel (maybe reasonably) worried.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:36 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
no no you are right, you have a reason to feel worried.

part of it is that they can only tell you so much (Didio is keepin such a tight hold on everything he won't let any of them say much, okay to be far PART of it might be the writers trying to sell thier story too, but you can tell in the interviews what is THEM and what is Editorial.)

so they use Buzz words and stuff that will catch people's attention.

Winnick might not be the most elegant writer. I think the thing is when he
"tires" to write a message, it gets clunky.... but when he doesn't "try" he ends up tell a good story WITH a message and it is seamless.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:44 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: (Happy Willow)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
hey i'd like to try and sooth you a little (in a good way not a weird way.... hmmm it probably got weird with me say that.... ignore that... damit why am I still typing!) So here is part of an interview, and a link to an interview on cbr (thanks to Whitesycamore below) hope this helps a little

Africa is both tumultuous in terms of its history and its politics, and it allows us to go in so many places we really can't go when it comes to talking about the United States. Because the reality in Africa is that it is a beautiful, majestic and also incredibly dangerous continent. When writing about superheroes here in the States, there is a lot of stuff I have to make up. That's just my function. In Africa you truly do have revolutions and wars being fought, dictators being overthrown, governments trying to be instituted where there are warlords or entire armies made up of children -- just crazy, over the top stuff that should be the stuff of fiction but isn't. These are the things we get to tap into, this is the landscape we get to work in and the canvas we get to work on, along with the superheroes. It is high adventure, don't get me wrong. Lots of guys in costume, lots of super bad guys, but set against this volatile landscape, which will make it interesting

(interview here: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=32731 )

Date: 2011-07-28 01:59 am (UTC)
marco: (Rita)
From: [personal profile] marco
Oh man... Hm. Yeah. I don't know what to feel at all now. vuv;

That wording was... Well. I don't know. It wasn't all bad, but it felt so othering at times. Earlier while I was out, I thought of how someone used "exotic" to describe a particular character and how while I like the sound of the word (because I used it all the time growing up), I've come to hate it because it is very othering. The whole premise is how "different" it makes the subject, and it's one of those things to me that comes off feeling like when people try to justify the model minority thing. ("Oh, you're Asian, so you must be smart!" ; Totally doesn't see how racially insensitive if not outright racist that statement is.)

Also, it does feel like it comes from such a place of privilege. It's like the matter where people don't believe something is feminist unless a man points it out, and it also reminds me a little of a post (and some connected links) from Racialicious about the novel and movie The Help. I think another part that bugs me about all this is he talks about it as if America doesn't have a lot of this stuff in its history (and sadly, some of it ongoing now). It's all kind of awkward.

I'm glad at least that Winick won't try to politicize the comic and anything (going by what he says), but again, I don't like that he feels that stuff has come up just because the comic is set in Africa. (And again, in his very first lines, he calls Africa dangerous. He probably means a very kind of dangerous than is typically used for the NA, but it's phrased as though plenty of people here don't live dangerous lives. It's the implications that go with it to me.)

On the plus side, I'm interested in what he'll do with the supporting cast. On the down side, I'm sad that it sounds like Africa only has one superhero (or at least, Bat family member) to cover it. The parallel to the Batfamily of Gotham to Batwing's is close yet distant there.

It all feels kind of touch and go... From everything about what Winick sees Africa as, how he parallels Africa to the US and the way his research sounds. I'm glad he's doing research, but to me, it doesn't make me feel like we're going to get something out of it the way we did when Bryke thoroughly researched for AtLA. It feels kind of close, but kind of stunted because of this focus on the "danger" and "corrupt" and "ravaged" aspect. (I say focus because he brings it up a lot.)

Really, we can only wait and see. I think I may be more interested in how discussions and impressions here will go when scans are finally posted, more than I'm interested in the comic itself.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:47 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
Well, the DRC IS war-ravaged. (Not just by internal fighting, but also eg. exiles from Rwanda)

Date: 2011-07-27 10:11 pm (UTC)
marco: (Default)
From: [personal profile] marco
Yeah, that was something I mentioned in the other post. There will no doubt be some Truth in Television there (supposing nothing gets exaggerated, etc), but there's also that side to it where everyone always likes to just focus on war-ravaged anywhere in Africa and forget that not all of it is so torn up because of war (whether it's that own country's war or not). It gets old and kind of ugly to see Africa as everyone's little "country" to use as a message and crap.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:42 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
i don't think it's fair to say that he is going to go off and "he will grossly misunderstand and possibly turn into a "look at those SAVAGES" situation.”"

I think it's fair to say that he is likely going to go off and be Winick about it.

Which isn't quite the same, but that doesn't necessarily mean better.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:01 pm (UTC)
auggie18: (ManHug)
From: [personal profile] auggie18
I wicked get where you're coming from there. I'm a gay jewish dude, so I'm a double minority, but neither one is noticeable in any visible way, so I've never been really been discriminated against. (I also live in a state known for being super liberal, so...)


But yeah, white Jews definitely have White Privilege.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:05 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
BRO HUG! heehee

Date: 2011-07-27 10:27 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (phantom1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
That icon is adorable. :D

Yeah, ironically, if you mentioned home-grown Antisemitism, most people would probably think "lower class" and someplace like the Deep South. But the worst shit I dealt with was when I was going to private school in a very Old Money suburb in N.J. for a couple of years. (I'd still think I'd rather eat a plate of jalapenos washed down with kerosene than ever set foot in that town again-- three decades after the fact. Bleah.)

Date: 2011-07-27 11:01 pm (UTC)
celestialchild: (Hamasaki Ayumi 2)
From: [personal profile] celestialchild
As others have said, you can be Jewish and white, and feel the discrimination and privilege that accompany both identities. There are also non-white Jews.

I speak as a white Arab. I have grown up with white privilege, and most people do not know I am anything else. I have cousins who are not white. And there exists, even among Arabs, racial discrimination based on skin color in spite of the common Arab ancestry.

It just goes to show the intersection of identity.

Date: 2011-07-28 03:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fredneil.livejournal.com
Depends who you ask. I don't identify myself as white because "white" isn't really an ethnic term, it's a status that was begrudgingly conferred upon Jews after the second world war and could very easily be taken away. When things go wrong (a war, economic troubles, etc) a common explanation on the internet is "blame the Jews," making it clear just how tenuous that status is.

Yes, I realize that Jews are generally accepted in the US, but we're still frequently considered an "other," even if an acceptable one. Even people who have nothing against Jews will talk about how the US is a "Christian" nation.

I could elaborate further, but I don't want to turn this into a rant about my personal beliefs.

Date: 2011-07-28 03:54 am (UTC)
proteus_lives: (Default)
From: [personal profile] proteus_lives
"out of curiostiy does Jewish count as white? i'm not entirey clear on that."

To a good chunk of the world, no. They'd hate Jews no matter what color they are.

In the US and Europe, yes.

Date: 2011-07-28 06:05 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
I would feel intensely uncomfortable saying that my White privilege would automatically disappear once I traveled outside the U.S. and Europe. (Leaving aside how much prejudice and social mores can vary in spaces so large and heterogeneous in the first place.)

There is Antisemitism in other parts of the world, true. But experiencing it would be contingent on whether or not people knew I was Jewish. If they don't know, then I'm still assumed to be the default faith/culture associated with the majority of White people.

Date: 2011-07-28 08:50 pm (UTC)
proteus_lives: (Default)
From: [personal profile] proteus_lives
"I would feel intensely uncomfortable saying that my White privilege would automatically disappear once I traveled outside the U.S. and Europe."

I think it depends on where you go. Some areas will there will be no change, others enhanced, or diminished or negated all together.

" But experiencing it would be contingent on whether or not people knew I was Jewish."

Not always, there is the assumption that can effect you. It's happened to me before.

Date: 2011-07-27 08:33 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
Morrison mocks her by saying he looks great in a dress, then turns around and encourages the female fans to submit work to DC.
I don't think Morrison was mocking HER, i think he saw a difficult situation and was trying to diffuse it through humor. was it ill timed and not at all well thought out? MOST DEFINATELY!

Dido on the other hand? (yeah i heard the audio) yeah he sounded really hostile

Date: 2011-07-27 09:03 pm (UTC)
lissa_quon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lissa_quon
I'm trying to give Morrison the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Though honestly his suggestion for women to submit to DC is also not very helpful. DC doesn't accept blind submissions. He may or may not know that, so once again, trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. But yea, still not winning any points for that advice.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:09 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
Well he IS Grant Morrison... He sneezes and everyone wants it to land on them... (sorry, that was kinda vulgar:) i like Grant. he has wonderful things to say about the female creators and characters in DC, and is a self proclaimed fan of Stephanie, Cass, and Oracle. WHich is why i just think he misspoke here.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:37 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
As I recall, they don't accept blind pitches, but indie creators can slip their talent agents some of their own original comics work. Hell, that's how Grant was discovered, after their talent people saw his work in 2000AD.

Date: 2011-07-27 08:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sparkysharps.livejournal.com
Every time DC responds to their lack of female writers and artists with "we're hiring the best around!" I want to scream LIIEEEEFFFEEEEEEELLLLLD at the top of my lungs.

Seriously, DC, you hired fucking Rob "FUCK! MY SPINE!" Liefeld. You're telling me you couldn't find anybody -male or female- better than him?

Date: 2011-07-27 09:01 pm (UTC)
biod: Cute Galactus (Default)
From: [personal profile] biod
Damn, thought I would be the first to mention that.
Glad to see people are paying attention though.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:22 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
well his art HAS gotten better (hawk and dove have feet! and don't look quite so swollen!) but yeah... totally get you :D

Date: 2011-07-28 12:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sparkysharps.livejournal.com
Well, I've had a sore spot with that line, because if DC really was looking for the best, they'd be trying to pull in Amanda Conner and Darwyn Cook, not Liefeld.

And, I don't know about Conner, but I know Cooke was interested in doing a Wonder Woman title that young girls could read. And not only was DC not remotely interested (because everyone knows you can't sell superheroes to anyone other than straight white 14 to 25-year-old dudes... What's that? Tiger & Bunny? Nope, can't hear you. Girls don't like superheroes.), they passed him over for Rob fucking Liefeld.

There's not enough rageface in the world.

The DC Logic is

Date: 2011-07-28 07:21 am (UTC)
stubbleupdate: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stubbleupdate
When were comic sales really high? - The 90s!

Who sold well in the 90s? - Rob Liefeld

Rob Liefeld = Massive sales!

Date: 2011-07-27 08:59 pm (UTC)
biod: Cute Galactus (Default)
From: [personal profile] biod
I would also like to point out that they hired Rob Freaking Liefeld for the New 52 as one of those so called people with quality. Just throwing that out there.
I still look foward to Seven Samurai (/Magnificent Seven, same difference). in midieval times. I think Horsewoman may have been crippled already, then Editorial or PR or whoever just ran with it in a misguided effort to make up for Babs getting het bipedal locomotion back.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:07 pm (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
Cornell says Apollo and Midnighter are still gay, but they meet for the first time in the first issue, and their romance is slow. He also says that if he changes anything he won’t expect to come out of the “Gays in Comics” Panel alive.

“Okay, I do like the idea that they don’t immediately jump down each other’s pants, like they did originally. But apparently Cornell feels like the only thing wrong with changing their sexualities would be the negative fan reaction? Uh, you shouldn’t change their sexualities because that would homophobic, not because you fear how the fans would react.”

No offence mate, but I think that you might be over reacting a little. He, like Morrison, was trying to be funny but seems to have been ill timed in that regard so people think that he was just trying to be flat out offensive.

And in regard to Horsewoman, yeah it was ill advised for him to bluntly say that she was there for diversity's sake, but considering they're doing away with Oracle this might be the only forum that DC has avaliable now to show that a wheelchairbound woman can just be as badass or strong a character as Barbara in Batgirl mode (in what I'm almost certain is an exosuit).

Date: 2011-07-27 09:12 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
(in what I'm almost certain is an exosuit).

yeah i think so too, her suit seems very tech heavy.


I agree with your post here. Morrison and Cornell were just trying to lighten the mood. they had good intentions, just bad timing. They Both SEEM to love and respect the characters they are writing (With morrison also claiming to be a big fan of Oracle, Cass, and Steph, if i am correct he hated her death, but don't quote me there)

Date: 2011-07-27 09:31 pm (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
Yeah, both Cornell and Morrison are writers who genuinely seem to love the medium that they're working in and the characters and settings that they're working with.

To be honest, Dan Didio... Doesn't. He treats DC as a business, which it is, but it seems that he's going for what he feels would be best for sales or to promote publicity for a comic, even if it's at the detriment of storytelling.

For example, Mark Waid that that Dan hated 52, and would loudly walk around proclaiming as such. Didio would go on to say that Countdown was "52 done right", even though it was a massive critical failure.

I believe that the logic behind this was that since 52 was a pretty insular series (with Infinite Crisis acting as a buffer at the beginning and One Year Later acting as one on the end), people didn't have to buy the series to know what was going on elsewhere in the DCU for the most part.

Having a major event that wasn't a required read could argueably be seen as being part of a bad business plan.

So Countdown, which dipped and weaved into various other series that tied into it's story, for example, Amazons Attack, Death of the New Gods, Salvation Run etc. etc. it made having to buy EVERYTHING a requirement to understand what the heck was going on most of the time. This lead to some really bad storytelling where characters would appear and disappear with no explanation as to WHY.

And also, the fact that the series was being dictated to writers instead of Paul Dini etc. being allowed to create something on their own lead to the storyline dissolving into an incoherent mess as they were being passed snippets of Grant Morrison's plans of Final Crisis without getting the whole picture.

For example, Mary Marvel going evil. In Final Crisis her being possessed by Desaad made sense because Morrison's versions of the New Gods had a history of that kind of thing, and Desaad (the God of Perversion) taking over her brain goes a lot way to explain her sudden inclination for microskirts and get literally getting off of absorbing magic.

In Countdown, they had the note that Mary was going to go evil, but no explaination as to WHY this was. SO they had to make up a reason. A reason that seemed to fit in with the boneheaded idea that having evil powers made you an evil person, and that moral grey was for suckers.

And even when they eventually managed to rescue the storyline with Mary managing to struggle through her own little redemptive arc, the fact that she was redestined to get possessed by Desaad made her sudden and, most offensively, fully concious decision to go evil again after getting her old powers back made the whole plotline completely pointless.

Heck, IF they had had Darkseid forcing the powers on her that would have been in keeping with the following storyline, but Noooo, people who do bad things are automatically EVILLLLL (unless they are Hal Jordan) and even when it looks like they're turned to the lightside, the lure of villainy calls to them like heroin to a character from Trainspotting.

Blech. This has gone on for a long time, but I did my dissertation on the media's coverage of Wonder Woman, Superman and Batman, so I guess this might be force of habit a little.

I'll be quiet now.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:40 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
no, no i agree with you. Didio, i really tried to give him the benifite of the sometimes... (im just a blue lantern through and through:) but lately... i just can't anymore... But that's Didio, Not DC. that's why i can't bring myself to hate the company, or the writers. So far the writers seem very enthused, a majority of them have stated they don't like what they are doing, but they are going to do the best they can. Cornell, Simone, Lobdell, Morrison, Krul have all pretty much said "I know... it sucks, we think it sucks too, its not our choice but we are really trying."

Date: 2011-07-27 10:07 pm (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
To be honest it kind of breaks my heart a little, the fact that people seem to assume that the writers have complete control of what goes in the stories, when in reality I think that only Didio, Johns, Lee and (because he's arguably the highest ranked writer they have on staff at the moment at DC) Morrison are able to just write what they think, in their own terms, what would make a good story.

Even people here, they read Cry for Justice and all start hating on Robinson, calling him a hack and completely overruling any option of reading his earlier, pre-Didio stuff because they're under the assumption that it'll be more of the same.

But Starman, his most famous work, is really, REALLY good. And has a lot more depth to the characters than a lot of DC's, or even Marvel's, current output. Heck, it even has GLBT characters in it without later DC comics' tendency to seemingly yell "SEE! WE'RE DIVERSE! WE'VE GOT A GIRL WHO LIKE'S CHICKS IN OUR BOOK!", which is something even the likes of Kathy Kane had to deal with before they nailed down an actual personality for her.

Robinson has made it clear, or at least as clear as he can with being fired for arguing like what happened to Chuck Dixon when he complained about his storylines in Robin and BatO being interupted by Batman RIP, he was given updates and memos as to what he had to put into the story regardless as to whether it made good sense storywise.

This lead to the storyline being kind of disjointed, as they said that he had to put certain things in there to get publicity or to boost sales, even if they didn't fit with the characters. So, he was told to make the team proactive, so they yelled about being proactive and going after the villains before they did their evil deeds... when the plot required them reactive to what Prometheus was doing. He was told to have the team do morally questionable things... like torture people, even though it made no sense for the characters to do so.

Considering his positive protrayal of women in his other work, the sudden inclusion into the story of Ollie recounting an anecdote of Hal Jordan getting Huntress and Lady Blackhawk drunk and sleeping with the two of them (and Ollie CONGRATULATING HIM FOR IT) or the Black Canary, the head of the JLA at the time, being left an ineffectual, weeping wreck because Ollie threat a tantrum and stormed out... is more than a little weird. Or the frequent shots of the male members of Hal and Ollie's JUSTICE Club blatently staring at Supergirl's boobs...

I mean, even Gail Simone didn't know where those things came from, and she's actually met and is/was friends with Robinson, so I'm going to just assume that they were things that he was told to put in on the assumption that the editorial think "straight teenage boys are our main audience, what better than the implication that Green Lantern had a sex sandwich with those two chicks from Birds of Prey to boost sales!" or something.

Another thing that I know for certain though, was that Robinson was told by the editorial that BOTH Roy and Lian had to die in the course of the story in order to publicise the series and make it another Essential Read. When Robinson actually stood up and said that killing both of them would just be gratuitious in a series that already had Australia's only gay superhero getting skinned and turned into Prometheus' rug and numerous other superheroes from around the world getting maimed or horribly murdered, he was told that he could only save Roy, at the cost of one of his arms.

Presumably because they realised that they could get more money out of a grieving ex-heroin addicted cyborg than they could out of an eight year old girl with no powers, no father, no home, whose continued existance would be balancing on the constant threat of limbo because, as Sin proved, Ollie would probably just presume that her continued stay with her father's adopted family would be too risky. Then shipping her off to an abbey or nunnery or something until she could come back as a teenager, either as a new sidekick, villain or as a creepy, CREEPY love interest.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:37 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
It's perfectly possible that Mikaal, now living on Earth, and knowing he is attracted to human men, self-identifies as gay because it's close enough to the truth without requiring a background in xeonophilic attraction vectors between humans and inhabitants of Talok III.

Date: 2011-07-27 11:22 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
why does going from "I am who I am" to "I am gay" have to entail in story explainations? personally i don't think its a HUGE change for the character. He has live on earth for years now, has had the same romantic partner for (8 years in story?) if he self identifies as gay now i don't see it as bad or forgetful writing on Robinson's part, or contradictory. nor does it necessitate an in story explaination...

of course all this just my opinion

Date: 2011-07-27 11:25 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
It's as plausible as everything else about the character.

Which is the more likely explanation, that a character when through a major change off-screen that is not the least bit alluded to, even through a throwaway line, or a writer who hasn't written a character in more than 10 years forgot how to write said character?

The former, by a significant margin. I don't even consider it as "major change", just a matter of semantic convenience and brevity for him.

He's either A) decided that in human terms he IS gay and consciously chooses to identify as such or B) has taken the perfectly human reaction to being asked for the umpteenth time if he's gay and decided to cut out the accurate but somewhat highfalutin' "Your Earthling terms of sexuality do not accurately describe me, I am not "gay"" and decided; You know, I'm TIRED of explaining things at length to people whose opinion has little interest to me. "Yes, I'm gay, now go away, I'm with my boyfriend".

Date: 2011-07-28 12:38 am (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
i didn't get that at all from Todd. He showed SOME interest in women, but he also showed interest in Al... and honestly, the most character development he has ever had WAS in Manhunter... every where else he is either background or EVILLLL.....

and the musical thing... umm thats really an issue to you? how much of his likes and dislikes did we know about before?

Date: 2011-07-28 03:51 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
But hey, why can't writers get worse over time? Mark Millar did it, Garth Ennis did it, Frank Miller did it.

Frank Miller at least has the "9/11 drove him crazy" excuse. Not that it didn't drive *me* crazy.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:25 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Another thing that I know for certain though, was that Robinson was told by the editorial that BOTH Roy and Lian had to die in the course of the story in order to publicise the series and make it another Essential Read.

I thought the original plan was for both Lian and Mia to die. The idea Mia died protecting Lian, and then Lian died anyway, would explain Green Arrow killing Prometheus a little bit more. As it stands, it looks like he just did it so Roy wouldn't.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:30 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
honestly the way they were going through characters it could have been both (i remeber hearing BOTH of those coments so maybe he was able to save Both Roy and Mia)

Date: 2011-07-27 10:28 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
maybe its because i concider myself a writer but I know what you mean, when people start paning stories in the reboot just because of the changes that are being made. The changes HAVE to be made, its not the Writer's choice.

when people say "I am not going to buy Batgirl because they uncrippled her, even though Gail is wrtiting" it makes me sad. Yes, i don't agree with them doing that. Had gail had a choice in it at all (which she didn't) she has gone on record as saying she would not have. But since the decision was made, and the offer for her to write it was made to her, she took it, and honestly I am glad she did, because if not for her i am afraid to think of what would happen to Barbara.

Agreed with you there too about Cry for Justice. The story itself had LOTS of good parts to it. But the parts that DID NOT WORK were clearly parts taht were dictated he HAD to write in. You could tell the parts Robinson wrote and the parts that were "assigned him"

Also JT Krul (nice man, met him at comic con) because he was associated with Green Arrow coming out of CFJ many people would not give his work a chance (Blackest Night Green Arrow was GOOD, Ollie was not just a ball of green ragey- mcragerson! he was conflicted and remorseful ect.) His Green Arrow Series itself has been REALLY good, and the last time i like Green Arrow Smith/WInnick were writing...His teen titans stuff has been the best in a long time (and he REALLY fought to go all the way to #100 because he felt the fans deserved that).

The writers do the best they can with what they are given (side note, Even Morrsion has his limits it seems, he likes several of the characters, didn;t like what they did to stephanie and wanted to continue with Dick as batman, but DC overrulled him, though yes, as the rock star i think he has more pull than most writers, which is why i take him at his word when he says Cassandra is still around, and stephanie is still around)

So yeah.

Date: 2011-07-28 12:14 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
On the other hand, what other way can you send a message that you don't like the changes than to stop buying their stuff?

Date: 2011-07-28 12:34 am (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
fair enough, that's each fan's right, its your money. that's not how i approach that, and that is fine. but how will you know you won't like it unless you try it? I HATE Harley's new costume... with a passion... but for All i know,. Suicide Squad will be a great story. YOU don't have to buy it, neither do I. But don't blame the writer (unless you know, the writer is shoddy)

the way i look at it is i might miss out on great stories, just because i don't like that they changed it. (again that's me, not everyone else) if they stay true to the characters, and tell good stories, then i am willing to give them a chance.

if you or anyone else don't want to, that is your choice and i don't fault you for it. its your money, your right, and your choice.

Date: 2011-07-28 01:18 am (UTC)
airawyn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] airawyn
I know I won't like the new Batgirl without trying it because the erasure of Barbara's disability gets me incredibly upset and I'm not going to reward DC with my cash for that.

Date: 2011-07-28 01:34 am (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
thats fine. as I said, that is not the case for me. does not make your choice any less right for you (or my decision any less right for me) and i applaud you for fighting these changes in your way.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:53 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
I think you're giving Roberson a little too much credit too--from what I recall, it was editorially mandated that Lian had to die and that Star City would be more or less destroyed. That's it. Everything else--the proactiveness, the torture--was all him.

Date: 2011-07-28 12:10 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
Although Lian Harper, Battle-Nun would be kind of awesome.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:54 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
No offence mate, but I think that you might be over reacting a little.

yeah he really lost it there.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:55 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
Uh, you shouldn’t change their sexualities because that would homophobic, not because you fear how the fans would react.

WHOA NOW, turtlefu, think you need to just

TAKE A BREATH

time to CALM YASELF DOWN, son

Date: 2011-07-27 11:34 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
He also introduced Faiza Hussain in CB&MI:13, who is technically a "diversity character", but whom he worked on with a team of real people in her 'diversity demographic'. And he did great things with her.

In isolated panels his words may well appear as callous as the worst of DC's representatives, I won't argue that anyone should research every panel member before having any reaction to their words in the SDCC context.

But for the little it's worth I do believe that he has an honest investment in diversity for the sake of truthfulness and it being the right thing to do.

I'm a fan of his writing, but I also admire him as a person.

Date: 2011-07-28 12:15 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
Feels like he's trying to make lemonade out of DC's lemons.

Rather than making combustible lemons.

Date: 2011-07-28 08:29 am (UTC)
biod: Cute Galactus (Default)
From: [personal profile] biod
WE SHALL BURN DC'S HOUSE DOWN WITH THE LEMONS!
BURN IT DOWN!

Date: 2011-07-28 09:07 am (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
Right! Exactly.

Mod Note

Date: 2011-07-28 12:57 am (UTC)
benicio127: (Mod mask!)
From: [personal profile] benicio127
RE: No offence mate, but I think that you might be over reacting a little.

While I appreciate that you aren't taking an obnoxious tack or ignoring the OP's points, and that you're basically just respectfully disagreeing, but telling someone that zie is, for example, overreacting or zie should calm down is considered a silencing/dismissing/derailing tactic.
It would really help head off potential crossed wires if "over reacting" could be a phrase that's avoided. Thanks.

Re: Mod Note

Date: 2011-07-28 08:21 am (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
Ah, sorry. :(

Date: 2011-07-28 07:16 am (UTC)
feyandstrange: Dalek and Oracle protest for "Access for all!" (access)
From: [personal profile] feyandstrange
Dear, please go easy on "wheelchair-bound" - most of us are not into that sort of kink. I am a wheelchair user, and I am not tied into mine; it's a tool, not a trap. My grandmother had to be bound to hers because she was so senile and insane that she forgot she couldn't walk, but that is very different.

And I remain totally unconvinced of medieval wheelchair being anything besides utter stupidity. No self-propelled chairs existed until the 20th century; even the wealthiest disabled person in that time would be being pushed (a few kings had that one), a carrying "chair", or crawling (what most cripples did if sticks/crutches didn't work for them).

And if they wanted diversity, how about some modern diversity? Vets with C-legs are almost trendy right now.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:08 pm (UTC)
aaron_bourque: default (Default)
From: [personal profile] aaron_bourque
She has the same personality

Uh . . . then she wouldn't be wearing that. She'd be wearing something goofy.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:17 pm (UTC)
lissa_quon: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lissa_quon
What?! Women dress differently due to their personality rather just picking the sexiest thing on the rack??

Next you'll be telling me breasts come in different sizes and that women don't stand every where posing sexily.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:27 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (violet1*)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
[golf clap]

Date: 2011-07-27 09:08 pm (UTC)
marco: (Ringo)
From: [personal profile] marco
Mmmhmmm. I wish I could appropriately grumble. There's just so much wrong here.

I honestly don't know what to make of Winick's comments anymore. I don't think I can be hopeful about what he'll present of Congo (or Africa period), but I'll still browse through Batwing just to see how it'll go. (I know I won't be touching Catwoman.)

Is it bad that I wish someone would effectively make a point to DiDio? Maybe not in the most polite or reasonable way possible. (I think I couldn't be bothered by that post about Marvel yesterday because DC has just made me so ...I just have a serious headache with them.)

For a while, I just thought, once this Flashpoint and new origin stuff ends and gets retconned or whatever, everything will be okay! But ya know... No. It probably won't be. Why is it not that easy? ;n;

Date: 2011-07-27 09:46 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
So if provocative's good, where's that comic with Superman in a bright red thong and an S cut into his chest hair?

Date: 2011-07-27 09:49 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
And why isn't Kate Beaton getting paid to write it?

Date: 2011-07-28 02:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sparkysharps.livejournal.com
I WILL BUY THIS COMIC. RIGHT NOW.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:01 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
In my "WiP" folder

Date: 2011-07-27 11:11 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
What bothers me even more than the gender disparity in 'provocativeness' is the attitude that female books (from both DC and Marvel - the Wonder Woman #600 issue, Marvel Divas, etc) are an appropriate venue for silly, light hearted, fanservicey fun, but that the men are SERIOUS.

I would totally read a frivolous, beefcake-y mini about a bunch of male heroes fucking about and having trivial adventures.

Date: 2011-07-27 11:25 pm (UTC)
biod: Cute Galactus (Default)
From: [personal profile] biod
Sex and the City, but manly, better, and WITH SUPERHEROES.
The "better" redundant once you add the superheroes.

Date: 2011-07-27 11:30 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
EXACTLY.

Date: 2011-07-27 11:39 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (phantom1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
I'd be happy if somebody could acknowledge that there's more than one way to be sexy, for pity's sake.

There's a good fan artist on another board I frequent. He offered to draw us all as superheroes, and I requested a variation of the Seventies Black Widow outfit. Because to me that's way sexier than boob windows and bare midriffs and shit.

Date: 2011-07-27 11:42 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
Yep. And some of those ways of being sexy can even involve being a guy!

Date: 2011-07-27 11:46 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (jan1)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
[gasp!]

Date: 2011-07-27 10:19 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Cornell says Apollo and Midnighter are still gay, but they meet for the first time in the first issue, and their romance is slow. He also says that if he changes anything he won’t expect to come out of the “Gays in Comics” Panel alive.

For a long time, part of the "hook" for Apollo and Midnighter was that they had no idea who they were *before* they were Apollo and Midnighter. They don't even know if they knew each other before or not. The only person who knew was Henry Bendix, and he never told them. Bendix played "multiple origins" with Apollo and Midnighter once, IIRC.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:35 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
Since Winick has stressed that Africa is a continent before:

"It's a fictional city, but based much in the way Metropolis is supposed to be New York City and Gotham, depending on who you want to debate about it, is either a dark version of New York or based on Chicago just as far as geographics and the general feel of it. We are actually basing this off a couple of cities in Africa, just because Africa is, again, a whole continent. If you think of one city in North America it's very different than another on the continent -- Toledo, Ohio is very different from any number of cities you might find in South America."

He also talks about Africa as a continent elsewhere in the interview. I'm guessing that calling it a 'country' here was a slip of the tongue, or a transcriber error. Say what you will about Winick, it's clear that he is at least aware of Africa as a massive, diverse continent.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:39 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: (Happy Willow)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
yeah. thats cool, i figured as much.

Date: 2011-07-28 07:20 am (UTC)
feyandstrange: cartoon icon (Default)
From: [personal profile] feyandstrange
WTF

Wait, so he says that cities within the US are different, but it's okay to build a fictional city in Africa and make it a generic blend of various African cities? Good luck getting the coastal cities to work in the landlocked Congo, son.

Winick may fail to suck at this, but the mere idea that there is one Batman for all of Africa remains so unreasonably prejudiced that I am not buying it. (Southeast Asia Batgirl and Central American El Batperson are not much better.)

Date: 2011-07-27 10:56 pm (UTC)
newnumber6: Ghostly being (Default)
From: [personal profile] newnumber6
"Lemire says Animal Man’s main character is actually Maxine, Buddy’s daughter. She gets her own powers."

So then shouldn't it be called Animal Woman? Or maybe Animal Girl, depending on her age.

(Yeah, I know, there's no real reason the name of the comic has to be the name of the main character, and sometimes for valid storytelling reasons the viewpoint character, who might get the title, isn't the "main character" that the stories revolve around, but it feels to me like they're saying, "But we know the book won't sell if we blatantly focus it on a girl, so we're generously hiding her off-putting femaleness behind a man who'll appear on all of the covers and lend his name to her.")

Date: 2011-07-27 10:59 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
I honestly think Winick's in a catch 22 with talking about the setting. You focus too much on the superhero side, people will bitch that you're ignoring or making light of the problems in Africa--you focus more on Africa's problems, people will bitch that you're making it look like the people of Africa are savages and can't take care of themselves. There's literally no way to win there.

Date: 2011-07-27 11:14 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
I think that is maybe part of what he means when he says that Africa is 'politicised.'

Date: 2011-07-27 11:15 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (grr)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
Please don't use "bitch" to mean "complain pettily". Gendered slurs aren't welcome on scans daily. Thank you.

Date: 2011-07-27 11:18 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
Alright, fair enough. My apologies. I'll try to refrain in the future.

Date: 2011-07-27 11:19 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
It's appreciated.

Date: 2011-07-27 11:16 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
It doesn't help though when he refers to the whole contingent of Africa as a "country" as if every single country/region has the same problems, issues, even types of people.

Date: 2011-07-27 11:20 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
Which, as someone mentioned, could easily be a slip of his tongue or a typo on the transcriber's side of things. Considering he's said that he's consulting different members of academia to get his facts on Africa right, I think it shows that he at least cares.

Date: 2011-07-27 11:27 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: (Yellow Batman)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
Maybe. Hopefully when the book does come out he doesn't represent the "Democratic Republic of the Congo" as interchangeable with any other African country.

I was probably looking for faults. This whole reboot is just making me more and more cynical.

Date: 2011-07-27 11:32 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
Well, Winick is a very politicised and ravaged writer. :P

Date: 2011-07-27 11:25 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
Winick does know that Africa is a continent. He can be ham fisted and soapbox-y, but he does try to be factually accurate from what I can tell.

Date: 2011-07-27 11:57 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
That's, of course, assuming that Winick is going to suck when you haven't even read it. Also, how has Morrison and Rucka, of all people, trivialized minorities?

Date: 2011-07-28 12:29 am (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
at times i can see that, but i personally loved his green arrow and liked his green lantern run.... was some of it "very special episode-y" yes, but his heart i think is in the right place... i don't think he trivializes them... trivialized implies to not think very much about them. Winnick actually cares about the political issues he discusses... he might not be eloquent about it. but his aim is not to trivialize

Date: 2011-07-28 02:08 am (UTC)
marco: (ethereal)
From: [personal profile] marco
I mostly agree. On the onehand, if he played down the "dangerous, politicized, ravaged" side a bit, I honestly wouldn't mind. As far as a majority of (mainstream) American media goes, Africa is usually (almost always) so war-torn and impoverished and corrupt and- it's just a shitty continent obviously! But to me, that's totally ignoring the good parts.

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing a writer focusing on the nice parts of Africa for once. I only feel a bit comfortable saying that because everybody always wants to show how terrible things in Africa are, so you know that story will get told. But I don't see anyone telling stories that, even if they aren't fluffy and nice (and modernized), don't have so much dipping into how horrible it is. There is no calm slice of life for Africa, I guess.

Date: 2011-07-28 09:15 am (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
At the very least African media provides some!

Which is expectable, obviously, but if you're hankering for some fiction about any part of Africa that doesn't feature child soldiers, that's maybe where to look. A lot of Nollywood productions are in English, if that helps.

Date: 2011-07-28 09:15 am (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
(That's not to imply that other countries shouldn't give the place a break too, because they most certainly should)

Date: 2011-07-28 09:26 am (UTC)
marco: (Mmhm)
From: [personal profile] marco
Oh, haha, definitely.

I happen to catch random movies that come from different parts of Africa (and the Ethiopian restaurant we frequent generally has a movie or some music videos on), but I don't think I've ever come across anything on here~.

Thanks for the link!
(I just think it's sad that for us to use Africa so much in media, Africa doesn't come out looking so good 98% of the time.)

Date: 2011-07-28 09:39 am (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
I agree, so much. I happened to catch a Nigerian movie by chance one day and I got kind of addicted - I couldn't guess what was going to happen in the story and there were a couple of really righteous moral smackdowns, which was great! But it also made me realise that the only knowledge I had of any part of Africa other than South Africa came from a) the news (bad) b) 'starving children' adverts (terrible), and c) folk tale compilations. And for such a huge piece of the world, that's a tiny amount! NO GOOD.

Also my interest in Nollywood led to seeing an exhibition of the Ife bronzes, which were some of the most beautiful sculptures I have ever seen in my life. If more people saw those.. the world could only get better.

Date: 2011-07-28 12:02 pm (UTC)
marco: (cool)
From: [personal profile] marco
They're like that right, like, "ugh! What's gonna happen!" So great that you can't foresee it, but for me, it just gets me all anxious. But yeah, I didn't even realize until a couple of years ago how sad things were w/Africa and media portrayal. (A little before the time I started frequenting Racialicious and took my racial and ethnic studies class.)

That's just the part that makes me a little sad and wary. It's less that I know the writer (Winick in this case) won't tell a good story, but I'd just be disappointed if a writer I loved ended up telling the same story that everyone else has been saying. (Because seriously, I get it now America. Africa is a sad country with starving children everywhere and little modern technology and child soldiers everywhere and war and horrible stuff. ...And nothing ever bad happens here.)

Ohh, I am very curious! I will have to look those up now!

Date: 2011-07-28 12:56 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
If you ever get a chance to see the bronzes IRL, TAKE IT. For real. Photos don't do them justice.

Date: 2011-07-28 07:04 am (UTC)
feyandstrange: cartoon icon (Default)
From: [personal profile] feyandstrange
Here's an idea or three: start with making him not "Batman of an ENTIRE FUCKING CONTINENT", and then send him to Addis Ababa and Casablanca and Capetown and Mombasa and other major centers of civilization and crime, instead of the second poorest country in the world still reeling from war and tribal conflict? And maybe have some Batpersons in those other cities? The African Council of Batman Inc would be awesome. Instead we have cliche and ignorance.

Date: 2011-07-28 07:14 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
Well, you're assuming that he's not going to explore the other countries in Africa and that there aren't any other superheroes in Africa. Hell, in those first appearences of Batwing in Batman Inc. had him teaming up with two superheroes in Africa.

Date: 2011-07-28 07:38 am (UTC)
feyandstrange: cartoon icon (Default)
From: [personal profile] feyandstrange
I am assuming that if there is a Batman of Paris or of all of France, and a Batman of Gotham, that a solitary Bat can usefully cover about one major metropolitan area plus its suburbs, with occasional visits outside their own turf to track things that occurred in their turf. Since Kinshasa has a population greater than that of London and IIRC more geographic area, and that's not counting Brazzaville across the river in Rep Congo, I would assume that the DR Congo alone (or the two Congos) is plenty for one Batman, especially considering that one can't as speedily move around on Africa's roads and runways as one can in the USA or even Southeast Asia.

I'm glad to hear that other African-continent heroes exist and get mentioned, but that doesn't really cut it. The USA has tons of superheroes and Batman still mostly handles the Gotham area.

Date: 2011-07-28 09:29 am (UTC)
marco: (ethereal)
From: [personal profile] marco
This. I think this is what most people are missing and what would fix things (to a point, anyway).
(Some people are making it sound like there's only places in Africa that are ravaged or something or, ironically enough, like there's a lack of countries to use from the continent.)

Date: 2011-07-28 12:19 am (UTC)
rdfox: Joker asking Tim Drake, "'Sup?" from Paul Dini's "Slay Ride" (Default)
From: [personal profile] rdfox
Positive: It's nice to see Winick living down to my expectations of his brainpower.

Date: 2011-07-28 12:27 am (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
i don't think it's fair to insult people's intelligence (though thats just me). as people stated above, it was most likely either a slip of the tounge or a transcriber error... as he has clearly stated in various past interviews that Africa is in fact a continent.

Date: 2011-07-28 02:11 am (UTC)
marco: (cool)
From: [personal profile] marco
I'm just happy that I got to see this macro. Thank you. My day is made. (And probably the rest of my week too.)

Date: 2011-07-28 06:56 am (UTC)
feyandstrange: "I know ten different ways to kill you with this cane, boy" comic with cane in fist (killyouwiththiscane)
From: [personal profile] feyandstrange
I demand Grant Morrison in a dress. Right now. And maybe DiDio as well. If we're gonna have sexism, let's go whole hog and have bad drag.

Also, we should totes send them to "Africa" and see if the locals can scam them out of their retirement funds.

Diversity character? Cornell, your name is on my cane's list. And your book is off mine.

Date: 2011-07-28 08:16 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist

This is Morrison, supposedly. Didio's going to be more of a problem.

Date: 2011-07-28 08:21 am (UTC)
eyz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] eyz
I still can't get behind this new costume for Harley...can't we call her "Maggie Queen", Harley's slutty retarded cousin and hope for the real Harley to pop up later and smash her with a giant hammer??

Date: 2011-07-28 08:30 am (UTC)
sadoeuphemist: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sadoeuphemist
Please don't use the terms "slutty" or "retarded," they're very offensive.

Date: 2011-07-28 12:41 pm (UTC)
eyz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] eyz
I'm sorry :(
I know...
Really...my brain just imploded while thinking about that new Harley... it's just...so bad!

Won't happen again, boss! *bows down humbly*

Mod note

Date: 2011-07-28 09:18 am (UTC)
greenmask: (grr)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
What sadoeuphemist said.

Re: Mod note

Date: 2011-07-28 12:41 pm (UTC)
eyz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] eyz
I'm sorry :(
I know...
Really...my brain just imploded while thinking about that new Harley... it's just...so bad!

Won't happen again, boss! *bows down humbly*

Re: Mod note

Date: 2011-07-28 12:46 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
Good to know.



..Now back to work, peasant! *kick*

Date: 2011-07-28 11:45 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I call bullshit on the complaints about Harley's new costume. She was wearing skintight gear before, but the second we see some skin, everyone casts their hands up and cries sacrilege. Her new costume's no more provocative than Ivy when she's prancing about sans boots and gloves with just the leafy bathing suit on.

Date: 2011-07-28 11:50 am (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
And the book with the stripped was likely Voodoo, unless anyones commented on it above. It was her job for a long while on the Wildstorm Universe, so that's clearly a callback.

Date: 2011-07-28 12:49 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
Skintight gear that you can, as many cosplayers have shows, prance athletically about in without revealing 'private areas'. This new costume? No chance. She's practically coming out of it on the cover. And there is, indeed, a socially accepted difference between "naked silhouette, but physically covered" and "actually naked, nothing between eyes and skin".

Ivy isn't really a prancer, is she?

Date: 2011-07-28 01:17 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
Prancing is just my choice in terms, I guess, and I do see your point, but at the same time. I don't see why there's such distaste toward the new costume. Provocative as it is, it distances her from Joker and the nonsense and bullshit of Gotham City Sirens.

It might not be a big step forward, and it certainly doesn't play to the bullshit 'iconic' argument DC are currently peddling, but to me, it at least says that DC are willing to try something new rather than rely on the BTAS crutch her character's relied on and which doesn't work in the main DCU.

Date: 2011-07-28 01:21 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
Because her breasts are literally coming out of her costume on both covers we've seen so far. He costume is COMING OFF, and that's realistic to what would happen if she really wore it in real life. This new costume is explicitly explicit - it is making Harley distinct from the Joker, yes, but it is also making her distinctly a heteronormative, male gaze fanservice object at the cost of her established character and in-world practicality.

Making a female character about how much of her tits the reader can see is not a step forward of any size. It is a boring, boring, insulting regressive step exactly NOWHERE, and in the case of Harley it's an actual step back.

Date: 2011-07-28 01:45 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (delphyne gun)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
I call bullshit on the complaints about Harley's new costume. She was wearing skintight gear before, but the second we see some skin, everyone casts their hands up and cries sacrilege. Her new costume's no more provocative than Ivy when she's prancing about sans boots and gloves with just the leafy bathing suit on.

You consider a precariously-laced corset to be no more provocative than a bathing suit? Either you have a fantastic time at the beach or find fetish clubs very boring.

I'm pretty sure that it is generally agreed a skimpy corset is more provocative wear than a bodysuit. Hence Jean Grey and Emma Frost's respective costumes.

Date: 2011-07-28 02:30 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I honestly just fail to see the difference between something that shows skin and a bodysuit or whatever that adheres to every last curve. Both, under the pencil of many comic artists, are equally explicit, imo.

Both are used to the same purpose, given I'm sure we could count the number of provocative Poison Ivy images out there with her breasts heaving until the cows come home.

On another note, the corset doesn't do a lot for me in a sexual sense at all. So I'm not arguing for it on those grounds, and I'm fairly certain there's guys who feel the same way. The idea of Ivy's bathing suit of leaves does interest and excite me a lot more than Harley's corset, especially when she's drawn by Nguyen.

Date: 2011-07-28 03:08 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (fight the void)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
I don't think anyone's arguing that Poison Ivy hasn't been depicted provocatively.

Even if it's not to your taste, I'm sure you realise a corset as outerwear is a provocative garment. It's not based solely on the amount of skin covered/uncovered. Compare Emma Frost and Wonder Woman's costume; even with the debates about the bathing suit's impracticality, Emma's costume is still more provocatively, and clearly intended to be sexual, than Diana's.

Date: 2011-07-28 05:54 pm (UTC)
cleome45: (violet2)
From: [personal profile] cleome45
Yeah, this.

Uncovered skin tends to communicate vulnerability, which is why we so seldom see super-dudes running around with a ton of bared skin.

I'm sad when I realize that even Emma's original Eighties get-up was pretty demure compared to what she usually wears now.

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