DC at SDCC: Provocative (Grant Morrison in a Dress) is Good? (Final Part, Saturday)

[turtlefu]

This is it! The final part of this massive clusterfuck! But first, legality!
 

Maybe they'll get around to the black guy... eventually

 

DC’s New 52 Panel (Saturday Morning)

Winick says that with Batwing, he’s trying to mix superheroes with real-world issues in the Democratic Republic of Congo. He called Africa “a very politicized and ravaged country”.

“Now THERE’s that white privilege I was talking about! Good job we have mighty whitey to tell us how horrible of a “COUNTRY” Africa is! I get a huge feeling Winick is going to use this book as his mouthpiece for his opinions on the politics and culture of Africa, which he will grossly misunderstand and possibly turn into a "look at those SAVAGES" situation.”

DiDio made a list of heroines in starring roles. He says DC has the best percentage of females in starring roles.

“DC, DIVERSITY IS NOT ABOUT NUMBERS. Why don’t you guys GET THAT!? Also, I call bullshit on that anyway. Besides, Marvel is employing far more female creators (Deconnick, Immomen, Rios, Liu, etc.)”

Morrison says that Cass still exists in the DCU.

“Yay Cass!”          

The same Batgirl fan from the panel who asked about heroines on covers asked this panel why there weren’t more female creators in DC. DiDio says, GET THIS, they hire the best writers and artists they can! And the audience applauds! Morrison mocks her by saying he looks great in a dress, then turns around and encourages the female fans to submit work to DC.

“So, DiDio implies that the female talent out they isn’t good enough for DC, and then Morrison mocks a justifiably upset fan. Then he turns around and saves face by encouraging the female fans to submit their work. Presumably to be told that they aren’t good enough for the wealth of talent that DC only employs, like the kind that puts out Cry for Justice or the Rise of Arsenal.”

DC’s The Dark and The Edge Panel (Saturday Afternoon)

Lemire says Animal Man’s main character is actually Maxine, Buddy’s daughter. She gets her own powers.

“Which is interesting, but I can’t help but feel it takes away from the “everyman” qualities Buddy was supposed to have”

Cornell SPECIFICALLY calls Horsewoman a “diversity character, to state it crudely”, and compares her to the Man with No Name [Clint Eastwood’s Western Character]

“Good Job Cornell, you just took away the good feelings I had for you. Turns out his wheelchair user was just there for diversity cred!”

Cornell says Apollo and Midnighter are still gay, but they meet for the first time in the first issue, and their romance is slow. He also says that if he changes anything he won’t expect to come out of the “Gays in Comics” Panel alive.

“Okay, I do like the idea that they don’t immediately jump down each other’s pants, like they did originally. But apparently Cornell feels like the only thing wrong with changing their sexualities would be the negative fan reaction? Uh, you shouldn’t change their sexualities because that would homophobic, not because you fear how the fans would react.”

This one is the worst. DC replies to the negative fan reaction towards Harley’s new costume by saying “Provocative is good”, but says that Harley still has the same personality.

“REALLY DC, why is PROVOCATIVE only good for your FEMALE heroes, so you can dress them is as objectifying clothes as possible, but your male heroes wearing briefs on the outside is SO BAD it needed to be changed IMMEDIATELY.”

“Oh and just to add, included were some pages from an unknown book showing a gratuitous scene with strippers. I think it was either from Blackhawks, Suicide Squad, or Sgt. Rock.”

Comments

[shadowpsykie]

“Now THERE’s that white privilege I was talking about! Good job we have mighty whitey to tell us how horrible of a “COUNTRY” Africa is! I get a huge feeling Winick is going to use this book as his mouthpiece for his opinions on the politics and culture of Africa, which he will grossly misunderstand and possibly turn into a "look at those SAVAGES" situation.”

out of curiostiy does Jewish count as white? i'm not entirey clear on that.

[cleome45]

I think White Jews in the modern-day United States have White privilege.

Which is not to say that I haven't been treated like shit by Gentiles before, or just treated with lack of respect/concern borne of ignorance.

However, I was not badly or disrespectfully treated by the dominant religious group/culture in my country because of the color of my skin.

If that makes sense.

[shadowpsykie]

yeah... i kinda get what you are saying now.

i hope you don't mind me asking, but are you a Jewish Male?

side bar, i don't think it's fair to say that he is going to go off and he will grossly misunderstand and possibly turn into a "look at those SAVAGES" situation.”

IMHO that is a pretty extreme leap. might he use it as a mouth piece? will he get some things wrong.... maybe... but we don't know. I for one often get confused over whether or not Africa is a country or a conitnent (give me a few seconds to think and yeah, i know its a continent. though my first thought is usually country) and this is coming from a Gay latino male.

[cleome45]

No. Ask away. :) I can't even remember whether I mention gender in my profile. I'm female, cisgendered, and hetero.

All this stuff about the "country" Africa makes me wonder if anyone besides me remembers Tales From The Heart. Maybe I'll dig around in the closet this weekend and see if any of my copies are scan-worthy. It's the only comic I own that attempts to depict an African country realistically. (Specifically, it's set in Bangui, and told from the POV of a White American who joins the Peace Corps in the 1980s.)

And not that I'm an NYT cheerleader, but a few years back there was this.

[shadowpsykie]

thanks. see the reasons I defend Winnick probably is colored by my sexuality (probably my gender to a certain degree to be sure, but i tend to lean towards female oriented/femenist thought... ummm this could get complicated....)

anyways. part of the reason I like Judd Winnick is his outspokeness about gay rights and gay issues. can he get soap boxy? yes (especially early on). BUT he has good intentions and for the most part he does well.

i'd like to beleive that here too he has good intentions... only the book will tell.

[cleome45]

No problem. Most of what I know of Winnick comes from this space and a few other fan boards. I don't really have much experience with his writing.

Oh, and naturally I dug out my TFTH comics and realize that I should have said the main setting is "Bangui, in the Central African Republic."

[facepalm] I should be working at DC. :o :o :o

[shadowpsykie]

yeah his GL was good, it brought out good issues such as Gay Bashin (and i don't mean fun parties where everyone is happy.... damn you Drawn Together!) it was... very soap boxy and the character dissapeared after (though i think so did Winnick shortly after that arc) but his Green Arrow stuff was great and he REALLY made Mia Shine when Smith left. (again some stuff WAS saturday morning cartoony, but regardless it was good) And his Mia/Redhood interactions were great. Hell his Redhood in general is good (red hood as in jason todd not... ummm okay) he is one of the only ones that seems to be able to write jason todd as a character and not as "The bad one"

again these are all just my opinions.

[feyandstrange]

I had to go check whether the CAR bordered the Congo, and I am hopeless at keeping track of which Congo is which these days. But hey, we at least checked! And I bet if we were writing a comic instead of a blog post we'd have tried harder.

[nezchan]

Tales From the Heart (didn't the title also include "Of Africa)? Oh, I think I had that! That was about a bunch of Peace Corps kids building a school, wasn't it? I recall some locals saying of the cocky guy "He walks like an elder" and he thinks it's a compliment.

If it's the same book I remember, I totally loved it and read it many times. Wish I still had it, honestly.

[cleome45]

Yeah, I think the story you're thinking of is "The Temporary Natives." If it was square back, in color, and from Epic. (Rather than either Entropy Press or Slave Labor, both of which published other, shorter stories in B&W with color covers.)

It would be tricky to post the Epic stuff, good though it is, because I don't want to crack the spines. But I can do some of the B&W stuff at some point, maybe... Hmmm...

[marco]

I kind of have faith in Winnick, but that he called Africa (whether he meant Africa or Congo) politicized and ravaged worries me. It feels like another case of "Africa will always be the dark continent, torn apart by war. Look at the people suffer and unable to get their stuff together." The only saving grace there is we have our hero who is black and not white saving them, if it comes to that (here's hoping anyway, lol). I'm in a very confused and worried state, because my opinions on both him and his statements are warring with me now. (And when put beside all he had to say about Catwoman, I just don't know if I even want to try...)

[darkknightjrk]

Well, he also talks about how it's going to be as much of a superhero story, if not more, so I don't think we're going to get "dark continent" out of him.

[marco]

Yeah, that's one part that makes me a little relieved. (I hope we don't get "the dark continent" out of him either way.)

[arilou_skiff]

Well, the DRC IS war-ravaged. (Not just by internal fighting, but also eg. exiles from Rwanda)

[marco]

Yeah, that was something I mentioned in the other post. There will no doubt be some Truth in Television there (supposing nothing gets exaggerated, etc), but there's also that side to it where everyone always likes to just focus on war-ravaged anywhere in Africa and forget that not all of it is so torn up because of war (whether it's that own country's war or not). It gets old and kind of ugly to see Africa as everyone's little "country" to use as a message and crap.

[fifthie]

i don't think it's fair to say that he is going to go off and "he will grossly misunderstand and possibly turn into a "look at those SAVAGES" situation.”"

I think it's fair to say that he is likely going to go off and be Winick about it.

Which isn't quite the same, but that doesn't necessarily mean better.

[auggie18]

I wicked get where you're coming from there. I'm a gay jewish dude, so I'm a double minority, but neither one is noticeable in any visible way, so I've never been really been discriminated against. (I also live in a state known for being super liberal, so...)


But yeah, white Jews definitely have White Privilege.

[shadowpsykie]

BRO HUG! heehee

[cleome45]

That icon is adorable. :D

Yeah, ironically, if you mentioned home-grown Antisemitism, most people would probably think "lower class" and someplace like the Deep South. But the worst shit I dealt with was when I was going to private school in a very Old Money suburb in N.J. for a couple of years. (I'd still think I'd rather eat a plate of jalapenos washed down with kerosene than ever set foot in that town again-- three decades after the fact. Bleah.)

[celestialchild]

As others have said, you can be Jewish and white, and feel the discrimination and privilege that accompany both identities. There are also non-white Jews.

I speak as a white Arab. I have grown up with white privilege, and most people do not know I am anything else. I have cousins who are not white. And there exists, even among Arabs, racial discrimination based on skin color in spite of the common Arab ancestry.

It just goes to show the intersection of identity.

[fredneil.livejournal.com]

Depends who you ask. I don't identify myself as white because "white" isn't really an ethnic term, it's a status that was begrudgingly conferred upon Jews after the second world war and could very easily be taken away. When things go wrong (a war, economic troubles, etc) a common explanation on the internet is "blame the Jews," making it clear just how tenuous that status is.

Yes, I realize that Jews are generally accepted in the US, but we're still frequently considered an "other," even if an acceptable one. Even people who have nothing against Jews will talk about how the US is a "Christian" nation.

I could elaborate further, but I don't want to turn this into a rant about my personal beliefs.

[proteus_lives]

"out of curiostiy does Jewish count as white? i'm not entirey clear on that."

To a good chunk of the world, no. They'd hate Jews no matter what color they are.

In the US and Europe, yes.

[cleome45]

I would feel intensely uncomfortable saying that my White privilege would automatically disappear once I traveled outside the U.S. and Europe. (Leaving aside how much prejudice and social mores can vary in spaces so large and heterogeneous in the first place.)

There is Antisemitism in other parts of the world, true. But experiencing it would be contingent on whether or not people knew I was Jewish. If they don't know, then I'm still assumed to be the default faith/culture associated with the majority of White people.

[proteus_lives]

"I would feel intensely uncomfortable saying that my White privilege would automatically disappear once I traveled outside the U.S. and Europe."

I think it depends on where you go. Some areas will there will be no change, others enhanced, or diminished or negated all together.

" But experiencing it would be contingent on whether or not people knew I was Jewish."

Not always, there is the assumption that can effect you. It's happened to me before.

[salinea]

http://salinea.dreamwidth.org/495043.html