turtlefu: (Default)
[personal profile] turtlefu posting in [community profile] scans_daily

This is it! The final part of this massive clusterfuck! But first, legality!

Maybe they'll get around to the black guy... eventually


DC’s New 52 Panel (Saturday Morning)

Winick says that with Batwing, he’s trying to mix superheroes with real-world issues in the Democratic Republic of Congo. He called Africa “a very politicized and ravaged country”.

“Now THERE’s that white privilege I was talking about! Good job we have mighty whitey to tell us how horrible of a “COUNTRY” Africa is! I get a huge feeling Winick is going to use this book as his mouthpiece for his opinions on the politics and culture of Africa, which he will grossly misunderstand and possibly turn into a "look at those SAVAGES" situation.”

DiDio made a list of heroines in starring roles. He says DC has the best percentage of females in starring roles.

“DC, DIVERSITY IS NOT ABOUT NUMBERS. Why don’t you guys GET THAT!? Also, I call bullshit on that anyway. Besides, Marvel is employing far more female creators (Deconnick, Immomen, Rios, Liu, etc.)”

Morrison says that Cass still exists in the DCU.

“Yay Cass!”          

The same Batgirl fan from the panel who asked about heroines on covers asked this panel why there weren’t more female creators in DC. DiDio says, GET THIS, they hire the best writers and artists they can! And the audience applauds! Morrison mocks her by saying he looks great in a dress, then turns around and encourages the female fans to submit work to DC.

“So, DiDio implies that the female talent out they isn’t good enough for DC, and then Morrison mocks a justifiably upset fan. Then he turns around and saves face by encouraging the female fans to submit their work. Presumably to be told that they aren’t good enough for the wealth of talent that DC only employs, like the kind that puts out Cry for Justice or the Rise of Arsenal.”

DC’s The Dark and The Edge Panel (Saturday Afternoon)

Lemire says Animal Man’s main character is actually Maxine, Buddy’s daughter. She gets her own powers.

“Which is interesting, but I can’t help but feel it takes away from the “everyman” qualities Buddy was supposed to have”

Cornell SPECIFICALLY calls Horsewoman a “diversity character, to state it crudely”, and compares her to the Man with No Name [Clint Eastwood’s Western Character]

“Good Job Cornell, you just took away the good feelings I had for you. Turns out his wheelchair user was just there for diversity cred!”

Cornell says Apollo and Midnighter are still gay, but they meet for the first time in the first issue, and their romance is slow. He also says that if he changes anything he won’t expect to come out of the “Gays in Comics” Panel alive.

“Okay, I do like the idea that they don’t immediately jump down each other’s pants, like they did originally. But apparently Cornell feels like the only thing wrong with changing their sexualities would be the negative fan reaction? Uh, you shouldn’t change their sexualities because that would homophobic, not because you fear how the fans would react.”

This one is the worst. DC replies to the negative fan reaction towards Harley’s new costume by saying “Provocative is good”, but says that Harley still has the same personality.

“REALLY DC, why is PROVOCATIVE only good for your FEMALE heroes, so you can dress them is as objectifying clothes as possible, but your male heroes wearing briefs on the outside is SO BAD it needed to be changed IMMEDIATELY.”

“Oh and just to add, included were some pages from an unknown book showing a gratuitous scene with strippers. I think it was either from Blackhawks, Suicide Squad, or Sgt. Rock.”

Date: 2011-07-27 09:07 pm (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
Cornell says Apollo and Midnighter are still gay, but they meet for the first time in the first issue, and their romance is slow. He also says that if he changes anything he won’t expect to come out of the “Gays in Comics” Panel alive.

“Okay, I do like the idea that they don’t immediately jump down each other’s pants, like they did originally. But apparently Cornell feels like the only thing wrong with changing their sexualities would be the negative fan reaction? Uh, you shouldn’t change their sexualities because that would homophobic, not because you fear how the fans would react.”

No offence mate, but I think that you might be over reacting a little. He, like Morrison, was trying to be funny but seems to have been ill timed in that regard so people think that he was just trying to be flat out offensive.

And in regard to Horsewoman, yeah it was ill advised for him to bluntly say that she was there for diversity's sake, but considering they're doing away with Oracle this might be the only forum that DC has avaliable now to show that a wheelchairbound woman can just be as badass or strong a character as Barbara in Batgirl mode (in what I'm almost certain is an exosuit).

Date: 2011-07-27 09:12 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
(in what I'm almost certain is an exosuit).

yeah i think so too, her suit seems very tech heavy.

I agree with your post here. Morrison and Cornell were just trying to lighten the mood. they had good intentions, just bad timing. They Both SEEM to love and respect the characters they are writing (With morrison also claiming to be a big fan of Oracle, Cass, and Steph, if i am correct he hated her death, but don't quote me there)

Date: 2011-07-27 09:31 pm (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
Yeah, both Cornell and Morrison are writers who genuinely seem to love the medium that they're working in and the characters and settings that they're working with.

To be honest, Dan Didio... Doesn't. He treats DC as a business, which it is, but it seems that he's going for what he feels would be best for sales or to promote publicity for a comic, even if it's at the detriment of storytelling.

For example, Mark Waid that that Dan hated 52, and would loudly walk around proclaiming as such. Didio would go on to say that Countdown was "52 done right", even though it was a massive critical failure.

I believe that the logic behind this was that since 52 was a pretty insular series (with Infinite Crisis acting as a buffer at the beginning and One Year Later acting as one on the end), people didn't have to buy the series to know what was going on elsewhere in the DCU for the most part.

Having a major event that wasn't a required read could argueably be seen as being part of a bad business plan.

So Countdown, which dipped and weaved into various other series that tied into it's story, for example, Amazons Attack, Death of the New Gods, Salvation Run etc. etc. it made having to buy EVERYTHING a requirement to understand what the heck was going on most of the time. This lead to some really bad storytelling where characters would appear and disappear with no explanation as to WHY.

And also, the fact that the series was being dictated to writers instead of Paul Dini etc. being allowed to create something on their own lead to the storyline dissolving into an incoherent mess as they were being passed snippets of Grant Morrison's plans of Final Crisis without getting the whole picture.

For example, Mary Marvel going evil. In Final Crisis her being possessed by Desaad made sense because Morrison's versions of the New Gods had a history of that kind of thing, and Desaad (the God of Perversion) taking over her brain goes a lot way to explain her sudden inclination for microskirts and get literally getting off of absorbing magic.

In Countdown, they had the note that Mary was going to go evil, but no explaination as to WHY this was. SO they had to make up a reason. A reason that seemed to fit in with the boneheaded idea that having evil powers made you an evil person, and that moral grey was for suckers.

And even when they eventually managed to rescue the storyline with Mary managing to struggle through her own little redemptive arc, the fact that she was redestined to get possessed by Desaad made her sudden and, most offensively, fully concious decision to go evil again after getting her old powers back made the whole plotline completely pointless.

Heck, IF they had had Darkseid forcing the powers on her that would have been in keeping with the following storyline, but Noooo, people who do bad things are automatically EVILLLLL (unless they are Hal Jordan) and even when it looks like they're turned to the lightside, the lure of villainy calls to them like heroin to a character from Trainspotting.

Blech. This has gone on for a long time, but I did my dissertation on the media's coverage of Wonder Woman, Superman and Batman, so I guess this might be force of habit a little.

I'll be quiet now.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:40 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
no, no i agree with you. Didio, i really tried to give him the benifite of the sometimes... (im just a blue lantern through and through:) but lately... i just can't anymore... But that's Didio, Not DC. that's why i can't bring myself to hate the company, or the writers. So far the writers seem very enthused, a majority of them have stated they don't like what they are doing, but they are going to do the best they can. Cornell, Simone, Lobdell, Morrison, Krul have all pretty much said "I know... it sucks, we think it sucks too, its not our choice but we are really trying."

Date: 2011-07-27 10:07 pm (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
To be honest it kind of breaks my heart a little, the fact that people seem to assume that the writers have complete control of what goes in the stories, when in reality I think that only Didio, Johns, Lee and (because he's arguably the highest ranked writer they have on staff at the moment at DC) Morrison are able to just write what they think, in their own terms, what would make a good story.

Even people here, they read Cry for Justice and all start hating on Robinson, calling him a hack and completely overruling any option of reading his earlier, pre-Didio stuff because they're under the assumption that it'll be more of the same.

But Starman, his most famous work, is really, REALLY good. And has a lot more depth to the characters than a lot of DC's, or even Marvel's, current output. Heck, it even has GLBT characters in it without later DC comics' tendency to seemingly yell "SEE! WE'RE DIVERSE! WE'VE GOT A GIRL WHO LIKE'S CHICKS IN OUR BOOK!", which is something even the likes of Kathy Kane had to deal with before they nailed down an actual personality for her.

Robinson has made it clear, or at least as clear as he can with being fired for arguing like what happened to Chuck Dixon when he complained about his storylines in Robin and BatO being interupted by Batman RIP, he was given updates and memos as to what he had to put into the story regardless as to whether it made good sense storywise.

This lead to the storyline being kind of disjointed, as they said that he had to put certain things in there to get publicity or to boost sales, even if they didn't fit with the characters. So, he was told to make the team proactive, so they yelled about being proactive and going after the villains before they did their evil deeds... when the plot required them reactive to what Prometheus was doing. He was told to have the team do morally questionable things... like torture people, even though it made no sense for the characters to do so.

Considering his positive protrayal of women in his other work, the sudden inclusion into the story of Ollie recounting an anecdote of Hal Jordan getting Huntress and Lady Blackhawk drunk and sleeping with the two of them (and Ollie CONGRATULATING HIM FOR IT) or the Black Canary, the head of the JLA at the time, being left an ineffectual, weeping wreck because Ollie threat a tantrum and stormed out... is more than a little weird. Or the frequent shots of the male members of Hal and Ollie's JUSTICE Club blatently staring at Supergirl's boobs...

I mean, even Gail Simone didn't know where those things came from, and she's actually met and is/was friends with Robinson, so I'm going to just assume that they were things that he was told to put in on the assumption that the editorial think "straight teenage boys are our main audience, what better than the implication that Green Lantern had a sex sandwich with those two chicks from Birds of Prey to boost sales!" or something.

Another thing that I know for certain though, was that Robinson was told by the editorial that BOTH Roy and Lian had to die in the course of the story in order to publicise the series and make it another Essential Read. When Robinson actually stood up and said that killing both of them would just be gratuitious in a series that already had Australia's only gay superhero getting skinned and turned into Prometheus' rug and numerous other superheroes from around the world getting maimed or horribly murdered, he was told that he could only save Roy, at the cost of one of his arms.

Presumably because they realised that they could get more money out of a grieving ex-heroin addicted cyborg than they could out of an eight year old girl with no powers, no father, no home, whose continued existance would be balancing on the constant threat of limbo because, as Sin proved, Ollie would probably just presume that her continued stay with her father's adopted family would be too risky. Then shipping her off to an abbey or nunnery or something until she could come back as a teenager, either as a new sidekick, villain or as a creepy, CREEPY love interest.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:37 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
It's perfectly possible that Mikaal, now living on Earth, and knowing he is attracted to human men, self-identifies as gay because it's close enough to the truth without requiring a background in xeonophilic attraction vectors between humans and inhabitants of Talok III.

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Date: 2011-07-28 03:51 am (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
But hey, why can't writers get worse over time? Mark Millar did it, Garth Ennis did it, Frank Miller did it.

Frank Miller at least has the "9/11 drove him crazy" excuse. Not that it didn't drive *me* crazy.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:25 pm (UTC)
starwolf_oakley: (Default)
From: [personal profile] starwolf_oakley
Another thing that I know for certain though, was that Robinson was told by the editorial that BOTH Roy and Lian had to die in the course of the story in order to publicise the series and make it another Essential Read.

I thought the original plan was for both Lian and Mia to die. The idea Mia died protecting Lian, and then Lian died anyway, would explain Green Arrow killing Prometheus a little bit more. As it stands, it looks like he just did it so Roy wouldn't.

Date: 2011-07-27 10:30 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
honestly the way they were going through characters it could have been both (i remeber hearing BOTH of those coments so maybe he was able to save Both Roy and Mia)

Date: 2011-07-27 10:28 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
maybe its because i concider myself a writer but I know what you mean, when people start paning stories in the reboot just because of the changes that are being made. The changes HAVE to be made, its not the Writer's choice.

when people say "I am not going to buy Batgirl because they uncrippled her, even though Gail is wrtiting" it makes me sad. Yes, i don't agree with them doing that. Had gail had a choice in it at all (which she didn't) she has gone on record as saying she would not have. But since the decision was made, and the offer for her to write it was made to her, she took it, and honestly I am glad she did, because if not for her i am afraid to think of what would happen to Barbara.

Agreed with you there too about Cry for Justice. The story itself had LOTS of good parts to it. But the parts that DID NOT WORK were clearly parts taht were dictated he HAD to write in. You could tell the parts Robinson wrote and the parts that were "assigned him"

Also JT Krul (nice man, met him at comic con) because he was associated with Green Arrow coming out of CFJ many people would not give his work a chance (Blackest Night Green Arrow was GOOD, Ollie was not just a ball of green ragey- mcragerson! he was conflicted and remorseful ect.) His Green Arrow Series itself has been REALLY good, and the last time i like Green Arrow Smith/WInnick were writing...His teen titans stuff has been the best in a long time (and he REALLY fought to go all the way to #100 because he felt the fans deserved that).

The writers do the best they can with what they are given (side note, Even Morrsion has his limits it seems, he likes several of the characters, didn;t like what they did to stephanie and wanted to continue with Dick as batman, but DC overrulled him, though yes, as the rock star i think he has more pull than most writers, which is why i take him at his word when he says Cassandra is still around, and stephanie is still around)

So yeah.

Date: 2011-07-28 12:14 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
On the other hand, what other way can you send a message that you don't like the changes than to stop buying their stuff?

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Date: 2011-07-27 10:53 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
I think you're giving Roberson a little too much credit too--from what I recall, it was editorially mandated that Lian had to die and that Star City would be more or less destroyed. That's it. Everything else--the proactiveness, the torture--was all him.

Date: 2011-07-28 12:10 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
Although Lian Harper, Battle-Nun would be kind of awesome.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:54 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
No offence mate, but I think that you might be over reacting a little.

yeah he really lost it there.

Date: 2011-07-27 09:55 pm (UTC)
fifthie: tastes the best (Default)
From: [personal profile] fifthie
Uh, you shouldn’t change their sexualities because that would homophobic, not because you fear how the fans would react.

WHOA NOW, turtlefu, think you need to just


time to CALM YASELF DOWN, son

Date: 2011-07-27 11:34 pm (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
He also introduced Faiza Hussain in CB&MI:13, who is technically a "diversity character", but whom he worked on with a team of real people in her 'diversity demographic'. And he did great things with her.

In isolated panels his words may well appear as callous as the worst of DC's representatives, I won't argue that anyone should research every panel member before having any reaction to their words in the SDCC context.

But for the little it's worth I do believe that he has an honest investment in diversity for the sake of truthfulness and it being the right thing to do.

I'm a fan of his writing, but I also admire him as a person.

Date: 2011-07-28 12:15 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] arilou_skiff
Feels like he's trying to make lemonade out of DC's lemons.

Rather than making combustible lemons.

Date: 2011-07-28 08:29 am (UTC)
biod: Cute Galactus (Default)
From: [personal profile] biod

Date: 2011-07-28 09:07 am (UTC)
greenmask: (Default)
From: [personal profile] greenmask
Right! Exactly.

Mod Note

Date: 2011-07-28 12:57 am (UTC)
benicio127: (Mod mask!)
From: [personal profile] benicio127
RE: No offence mate, but I think that you might be over reacting a little.

While I appreciate that you aren't taking an obnoxious tack or ignoring the OP's points, and that you're basically just respectfully disagreeing, but telling someone that zie is, for example, overreacting or zie should calm down is considered a silencing/dismissing/derailing tactic.
It would really help head off potential crossed wires if "over reacting" could be a phrase that's avoided. Thanks.

Re: Mod Note

Date: 2011-07-28 08:21 am (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
Ah, sorry. :(

Date: 2011-07-28 07:16 am (UTC)
feyandstrange: Dalek and Oracle protest for "Access for all!" (access)
From: [personal profile] feyandstrange
Dear, please go easy on "wheelchair-bound" - most of us are not into that sort of kink. I am a wheelchair user, and I am not tied into mine; it's a tool, not a trap. My grandmother had to be bound to hers because she was so senile and insane that she forgot she couldn't walk, but that is very different.

And I remain totally unconvinced of medieval wheelchair being anything besides utter stupidity. No self-propelled chairs existed until the 20th century; even the wealthiest disabled person in that time would be being pushed (a few kings had that one), a carrying "chair", or crawling (what most cripples did if sticks/crutches didn't work for them).

And if they wanted diversity, how about some modern diversity? Vets with C-legs are almost trendy right now.


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