superboyprime: (pic#396052)superboyprime ([personal profile] superboyprime) wrote in [community profile] scans_daily,
@ 2011-08-22 03:51 pm UTC
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Rolling Stone Magazine has a new interview with Morrison up. Morrison's normally quite tactful and complimentary to the work of his peers, but this time he gets quite vicious about some of them.

Some excerpts:

Do you think this is the death spiral [for superhero comics]?
Yeah. I kind of do, but again, you can always be wrong. There's a real feeling of things just going off the rails, to be honest. Superhero comics. The concept is quite a ruthless concept, and it's moved on, and it's kind of abandoned, the first-stage rocket.

Abandoning comics?
And moving on to movies, where it can be more powerful, more effective. The definition of a meme is an idea that wants to replicate, and it's found a better medium through which to replicate, games, movies. It would be a shame, because as I said in the book, one of the most amazing things about those universes is that they exist, there's a paper continuum that reflects the history, but people don't die, it's like the Simpsons, people don't age, they just change.


*

There have been histories of comic books, but your book Supergods is all superheroes. It's a counter-narrative to the idea that comics need to outgrow this superhero stuff.
I can appreciate someone like Chris Ware for his artistry, which I think is beautiful, but I think his attitude stinks, it just seems to be the attitude of somebody really privileged, and honestly, try living here, try living on an Indian reservation and shut up, and really seeing all that nihilistic stuff, it really makes me angry, it's unhelpful to all of us, and it's coming from people who have money and success to talk like that and bring those aspects of the way we live in favor of all the others, and it's indefensible.

So I never liked that stuff, I always thought that I had a real Scottish working class thing against the fact that these were done by privileged American college kids, and they were telling me the world was flat. "You're telling me the world is flat, pal?" And it's not helpful, it doesn't get us anywhere. OK, so it is, then what? What are you going to do about it, college kid? My book wasn't academic. I can't take on those Comics Journal guys, they flattened me, as they did, it's just defensive, smartass kids.

This is what I'm into, and here's how, through my eyes, it's exalted. You may look at the same thing and just see trash, toilet paper, I'm looking at this and seeing William Blake angels. This is how it looks through these eyes, this is all I've got, I can't talk about it in half degrees, but I can talk about it in the sense of a practitioner of it, someone who has thought about it intensely for an awful long time, and again, I thought, "What can I make, a book that reads the way Nick Kent talks about music," those guys, it at least gives you a personal connection to someone who takes this very seriously.


*

Do you still hang out with your former protégé Mark Millar at all?
No.

Is that an estranged situation?
It's a can of worms. I met Mark when he was 18, and I really got on with him, because he laughed at all my jokes. He has the same sense of humor as me, he's very dark, and has that sense of humor, so we bonded. I used to phone him every day, and we ended up doing some work together on 2000 AD, which went well. It was funny stuff, we'd meet in the pub and get drunk and do this Big Dave strip, which was a comedy strip, and obviously, he was trying to get into American comics, so I got him on in Swamp Thing, and they asked me to write the book but I said, "Let's get Mark in, let's give him a job," so I consulted with him on the stories, and so on through the Nineties.

When he got the Authority book, his star started to rise, and at that point, he felt he was in my shadow and he had to get out, and the way to get out was to do this fairly uncool split. It was quite hard, I felt, but he had to make his own way, and he was in denial that I'd been there, because I saw a lot of his work had been plotted or devised, even dialogue suggestions were done by me right up until the point of The Ultimates. It was seen by him as a dimunition of his position, even though it wasn't, I was quite proud of him as a mentor. He's done well without me, he has his own style, he does his own stuff. It was kind of that archetype, you get caught up in that story.

You came out and acknowledged this, but that was after the estrangement?
Yeah. Before that, everyone in the business knew that I was working with him, it was obvious, I was 10 years older, I was already successful. His star rose, and that history became sidelined.

He still lives in Glasgow, is there a chance of bumping into him?
There's a very good chance of running into him, and I hope I'm going 100 miles an hour when it happens.

You were very kind to Brad Meltzer’s Identity Crisis in Supergods.
I was trying to be kind because I like Brad Meltzer. He's a nice guy. I have a lot of interesting conversations with him so I tried to focus on what I thought was good about it and there was actually quite a lot when I read it again. The first time I read it I was kind of outraged. I thought this was just… why? What the fuck is this, really? It wasn't even normal. It was outrageous. It was preposterous because of the Elongated Man with his arms wrapped several times around the corpse of his wife. I thought something is broken here. Something has gone so wrong in this image.


For legality, a panel from Morrison and Quitely's Flex Mentallo:



I hate to admit it, but I think there's certainly a grain of truth in what Morrison says about superheroes moving away from comics. Just looking online, it's pretty obvious that even most comic book fans care more about and buzz more about movies starring their favorite characters than the comics that do. I think most of them genuinely would prefer, say, a good Batman TV show to a good Batman comic book, sad as that is. For me, it'll always be the comics first and foremost, but I imagine I'm in the minority.


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[personal profile] donnblake
2011-08-23 02:27 am UTC (link)
Is... Grant Morrison saying that he grew up on an Indian reservation? Or am I missing something there?

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aaron_bourque: default (This is my face on blogs.)


[personal profile] aaron_bourque
2011-08-23 04:33 am UTC (link)
I think he's complaining about a tendency of writers who haven't grown up in abject poverty to try to write stories about the depths of crushing desperation. Perhaps he feels it rings false? I dunno.

If so, I disagree. I agree with Neil Gaiman: the only qualification for writing stories about people is to be a person.

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[personal profile] donnblake
2011-08-23 04:36 am UTC (link)
Okay, yeah, I get it. He grew up in Glasgow, where abject proverty is common, and he's just giving reservations as another example of an area where those conditions are common. All right.

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proteus_lives: (Ron Swanson)


[personal profile] proteus_lives
2011-08-23 07:09 am UTC (link)
"so, I disagree. I agree with Neil Gaiman: the only qualification for writing stories about people is to be a person."

Love that quote, keeping it.

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terabient: A boy on a tightrope (Limbo)


[personal profile] terabient
2011-08-23 10:07 am UTC (link)
I dunno, I read that as frustration over the tendency of privileged white male creators writing patronizing crap about issues they really don't understand.

I mean, there's a lot of hypocrisy there, Morrison being Morrison, but the trend of comic writers trying to say something ~profound~ about serious subjects only to come off as smug and/or ignorant is...a problem.

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grazzt: (twentieth century boys)


[personal profile] grazzt
2011-08-23 06:57 pm UTC (link)
The problem was that he was using Chris Ware as an example. To the best of your knowledge, when has Chris Ware ever done that?

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meatwhichdreams: (hopey car)


[personal profile] meatwhichdreams
2011-08-24 01:22 am UTC (link)
It seemed more like Morrison was responding to Ware's criticism of Superheroes in general, but it went in an uncomfortably personal direction.

Ware's very tapped into the "Fine Art" world and has witnessed first hand the dismissals and belittling towards comics. I'm having trouble finding quotes, but he's spoken on several occasions about how comics are the only medium where most "normal" people expect both a mood (humor) and a subject (superheroes). And that for better or worse the only way for comics to reach critical recognition is to "outgrow" superheroes.

Where he is making enemies is when he says it's for the better! Depending on the quote, he can be pretty down on the subject of superheroes as adolescent wish fulfillment, which understandably rubs people the wrong way! But he also seems to be commenting on the fucked up commercialism of mainstream superhero comics that puts a stranglehold on creativity and has - in his eyes - exhausted this set of tropes.

Morrison seems to be bringing a class analysis into things here, and claiming that Superhero comics are inherently more working class than Ware's work? I think the reservation bits were specifically referencing a current Batman storyline. He seems to have the opinion that superhero stories are responding to lower class issues, and indie comics like Ware's are responding to middle class issues, and that those issues are less valid. Errrrr I cannot start with how overly simplistic this is!! I don't think there's any need to tear down Ware's work to address privilege in comics, especially when mainstream superhero comics are up to their elbows in it.

Well, at least we're having a good discussion here in S_D! :D

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mrstatham: (pic#927958)


[personal profile] mrstatham
2011-08-25 09:43 am UTC (link)
Again, the stuff about being on a reservation seems.. Well, somewhat hypocritical from Morrison's perspective. You can bet the guy doesn't live on a reservation himself, and the way he presents himself - those sharp suits! - is a world away from the poverty depicted in that Batman Inc story. I'd be willing to bet that his childhood (making assumptions here, I know) was likely much better than the lives of most on reservations.

His statement kinda rings false if you interpret it as him saying that writers shouldn't write what they don't know, too - How can he possibly write about a billionaire vigilante with so much crushing sorrow in his life when he hasn't lived that himself, for instance? It's like saying George Lucas shouldn't create Star Wars because he didn't blow up a space station as a young man, or that Toho shouldn't have created Godzilla stories, because a rampaging nuclear monster wasn't *actually* born from the ashes of Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

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[personal profile] arysteia
2011-08-26 01:08 am UTC (link)
I *thought* (could be totally wrong) what he was saying was that kids in terrible circumstances (be it reservations, housing projects etc) like the sheer escapism of the superhero genre, and that it is awesome in and of itself. Whereas "deep" comics (the ones that are praised as elevating the genre etc) appeal more to the middle classes etc.

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meatwhichdreams: (me icon)


[personal profile] meatwhichdreams
2011-08-26 07:15 am UTC (link)
See, that's a good point that can be supported by demographics! I wish Morrison had stuck to that instead of getting all personal. Thanks for unraveling that.

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mrstatham: (pic#927958)


[personal profile] mrstatham
2011-08-27 07:41 am UTC (link)
I still think that would be making unnecessary comparisons or trying to rub Ware's nose in it. It's remarkably short-sighted, really, and seems to be of the same school of thought that says a person should only like one kind of music. Ostensibly, I'm working class, but I've enjoyed all sorts of comics, from superheroes to Love and Rockets, to bits of Pekar and some manga titles.

It just feels that Morrison is either too defensive of his field of work and expertise, or, as others have pointed out, he's incredibly unaware of comics outside superheroes. Either way, he seems to be under the impression that everyone only likes one particular thing.

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meatwhichdreams: (delirium kindly ones)


[personal profile] meatwhichdreams
2011-08-28 05:39 am UTC (link)
Absolutely spot on and I couldn't agree more - No one can tell you what you have to like! You have been on fire throughout these discussions. :D

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meatwhichdreams: (marlys!)


[personal profile] meatwhichdreams
2011-08-26 06:48 am UTC (link)
Very good points all! If Morrison is saying middle class people don't feel as strong despair as lower class people, UM, what, way to fetishize poverty! By knowing and understanding a universal emotion such as despair, you can bring that concept into your work through any form of storytelling. THAT is what "write what you know means"!! Not blowing up space stations : D

I understand that Morrison may be responding to the other end of this spectrum.. privileged writers who exploit real people and issues to up the drama in their stories - ie Stephanie Myers making her werewolves more Tragic and In Harmony With Nature by writing them as Quileute Native Americans. But!!! As others have said...when has Chris Ware ever done that? What a strange example to use, Morrison! You are confusing us all!

(thanks, glad you liked my icon! always glad to meet a fellow Hopey enthusiast :D)

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mrstatham: (pic#927958)


[personal profile] mrstatham
2011-08-25 09:44 am UTC (link)
Also, love that icon, by the way. I adore Hopey.

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halloweenjack: (Halloween Jack)


[personal profile] halloweenjack
2011-08-23 11:59 pm UTC (link)
It's the old saw of "hey, buddy, if you think you've got it bad, be thankful you didn't grow up in the developing world."

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meatwhichdreams: (hopey car)


[personal profile] meatwhichdreams
2011-08-24 01:29 am UTC (link)
Very well quoted! I understand his frustration, and his call for respect for the stories of people living in poverty. It is indeed common for middle-class-depression stories to get more critical attention then lower-class-depression stories, in all media...(although Poverty Porn is pretty popular too, only if written by privileged authors, like you mentioned). But! That doesn't make Ware's stories about people any less true, and about anyone who is less than a person than the people he wants to write about.

This is real too.

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