Batwoman #1

[superfangirl1]

A ghostly figure arrived to steal children. Batwoman arrived to stop the creature, but the spectral kidnapper stole away with the little ones, and the heroine promised to get them back. Cut to Gotham P.D., as Detective Maggie Sawyer concludes her interview with the grieving parents

Comments

[icon_uk]

Whilst I'm all for the Batwoman character, she lost points by the repeated dissing of Bette who, if nothing else, is a character with roots and history that go back as far as hers (Yes, I know that Kate is sort of an analogue of Golden Age Kathy Kane, the way Bette is of Golden Age Betty, but the differences are more extreme)

Yes Kathy, we get it, you're the cool one with your own title, and yes Bette is a less intense character, but she HAS been doing it longer in this continuity (I think) and there's no need to be so dismissive.

[biod]

It would be nice for Kate to recognize that, beneath all the flash and bravado, Bette is a competent crimefighter who could even teach her a thing or two. And if Bette can make her crack a smile while doing it, all the better.

[aaron_bourque]

I figured she's trying to hold on to the last of her family as hard as she can, which will probably end up driving Bette away, or at least alienate her in the short term.

[rdfox]

The way she's treating Bette is *exactly* how I would expect Kate to treat anyone she's taking under her wing to train. The all-grey outfit is similar in concept to the West Point cadet uniform, freshmen at West Point are called "plebes," and the harsh, no-bullshit treatment (similar to enlisted basic training, but much harsher and nastier) is just like "Beast Barracks," the period in the summer before freshman year when cadets go through their own version of basic training to transition to military life. (See this Wiki article for a description of the Naval Academy's equivalent, "Plebe Summer," which is very, very similar to Beast Barracks--note that the torment doesn't actually stop until the end of your freshman year, either, as upperclassmen are expected to keep on you all the way until then.)

Kate, having attended West Point, would have been through Beast Barracks and the similarly rough treatment of her plebe year. Beyond that, she's basically treated Batwoman as being her job since then, while for Bette, Flamebird was basically a lark she went on to try and get into Dick's pants. Kate sees herself as a professional (as evidenced by Batman letting her operate in Gotham and, as seen at the end, presumably inviting her to join Batman Inc.), while in her eyes, Bette is a diletantte (how the hell do you spell that?) and amateur who's just "playing dress-up cops and robbers" and needs to be trained to be a professional, lest she get herself killed. So she's training Bette the same way she was trained--very harsh, almost cruel, but effective.

It may not be very *nice*, but at least to me, it's a mindset that makes perfect sense for the character.

[filthysize]

This. I thought it was a great touch. She's not treating her like a sidekick. She's treating her like a recruit. I like the "You're not Flamebird. You're just plebe" bit.

[icon_uk]

Yes, but as Bette's Flamebird has been in operation for a good deal longer than Kate's Batwoman, it's still a rather dismissive approach IMHO.

[xammax]

She is being dismissive. She is telling Bette I could not give a crap what you think you know because it amounts to shit. Bette is a recruit and really, Golden Age barrier aside, pretty much is one.

[icon_uk]

Kate is even MORE of a new recruit to the superhero side of things. She's a trained soldier, but she's had little experience as a crimefighting vigilante.

[jaybee3]

Bette also, depending on how much of the old Titans relationships/friendships are still intact in this continuity, has more contacts in the super-hero community that Kate. That counts for something as well.

[runespoor]

I think the key words here are "superhero" and "crime-fighting vigilante". Bette is more the former than the latter, especially in Gotham; meanwhile Kate has been training for for a couple years all over the world to be a crime-fighting vigilante in Gotham.

[wtfomfg2]

IAWTC. Which is why I would love to see an issue where Kate and Bette have to fight some crazy, over the top, flashy but still competent supervillian where Bette would get to show her experience dealing with these kinds of criminals.

[biod]

Oh it's a very well done and consistent character moment, but I just think Bette deserves more props than what she's given. I'm not frustrated with the story but with the character, and that's just fine and dandy.

[sistermagpie]

I haven't read this yet but this is what I would expect from Kate and I like how it's reflected in the way the Bats interact with her.

[whitesycamore]

...man, military culture is way stupid.

[rdfox]

No, it's not. The whole point of putting people through that level of stress is to weed out the ones who'll crack under the pressure of combat. Officers end up with much more long-term pressure than enlisted types, hence the extended period of ultra-high pressure for them.

On top of that, part of the point of the psychological treatment of the cadets is to essentially break down the individual who initially arrives and then rebuild them to be a member of a cohesive team where *every* member of the team knows that they can rely on *every* other member of the team to do their job without fail. Individualism is a *bad* thing in combat. It gets you killed, and, worse than that, it gets the rest of your unit killed.

The harsh, almost cruel treatment is inflicted on the cadets for a *reason*. While they may seem arbitrary or bizarre, there is always a reason for everything that the military officially sanctions, even if it may not always be immediately obvious.

(There are some aspects of military culture, such as "blood pinning" and such, that are idiotic grunt-grunt macho-man rituals, yes, but none of those are officially sanctioned, and indeed, if the military finds out about them, they'll do their best to nip them in the bud.)

[whitesycamore]

The harsh, almost cruel treatment is inflicted on the cadets for a *reason*. While they may seem arbitrary or bizarre, there is always a reason for everything that the military officially sanctions, even if it may not always be immediately obvious.

I know that ostensibly there are reasons, it's just that the practice never seems to follow on very clearly from those reasons. I mean "break down the individual who initially arrives and then rebuild them to be a member of a cohesive team" - yeah, I totally get how saying everything in a theatrical shouty-voice will achieve that end.

[rdfox]

It's not the shouting that does it. In fact, most drill instructors look down on those whose only tool for the job is shouting; shouting is a tool used for the initial intimidation upon arrival (witness R. Lee Ermey's initial speech to the new recruits in Full Metal Jacket) and for situations when you either need to be heard at a distance, over noise, or because someone's doing something REALLY stupid and needs to be corrected RIGHT NOW (for example, starting to stand up on the crawl-under-barbed-wire course, where there's machine gun fire seven feet above the wire to add simulated combat stress--it's supposed to be high enough to be safe if someone stands up, but just in case, you're supposed to stay in a low crawl until you get clear of the course and thus off the firing line). Basically, shouting should only be used for shock value; anyone who relies on it won't be a very successful instructor.

There *is* the "command voice," but that's not shouting--that's projecting the voice with power and authority. Hell, I've never been in the service (health issues and, until recently, being bi meant DADT issues), but I've actually busted out the "command voice" once without even realizing to. (Short version: I was working part-time at Michigan State as an assistant traffic cop for events, and when then-sitting President Clinton was to speak at the graduation, I was assigned to keep a parking lot next to the site empty. Later, while I was out there, I was told that I was also to clear everyone back from the curbs when the motorcade came by(!); as it approached, I called out a polite-but-firm request that came out spoken, not shouted, but about four times louder and an octave lower than I normally can do, and saw *everyone* in a quarter-mile radius backing away from the curbs.)

The methods used to break down the individual and rebuild them are much more subtle and psychological, relying on a continual high-stress environment and repeated drilling to obey orders instantly and without question, so that even if your brain runs off into a corner and hides, you'll still be able to function under fire. The classic "Strip the bed! Make the bed! Strip the bed! Make the bed!" and "Empty the pack! Pack the pack! Empty the pack! Pack the pack!" routines are examples of this; they seem like pointless things, but it's intended to both make following orders instinctive, and build an instinctive attention to detail.

Interestingly, it's apparently a formal requirement that military instructors inform troops of the purpose, goal, and technique to be used in any form of training *before* they start it ("The purpose of this exercise is to learn to maintain the M16A4 assault rifle. The goal is for you to be able to field-strip, clean, reassemble, and function-check your rifle while blindfolded. The technique will be repeated practice in the disassembly, cleaning, reassembly, and function-check procedures, until it can be successfully done by sense of touch alone!"), and in the case of the training that is done as an ongoing psychological or physical drilling, there's a semi-official requirement that, if asked respectfully during off-hours (i.e., when not engaged in direct training), that they explain the purpose and goal of any of their actions to any recruit who asks, clearly and politely.

The days of the sadistic drill instructor who's just out there to break students because he enjoys it are long gone; drill instructors are now out there to weed out those who won't be able to cut it in the early phases, then do everything in their power to make sure that those who *will* be able to succeed in a military environment do so. (One crucial rule: Never ask, order, or expect any trainee to do anything you personally can't or wouldn't do, and be ready to demonstrate, at any time, that yes, you CAN do this, and a hell of a lot better than your best trainee.)

Hence Kate's behavior; she's putting Bette through the wringer to make sure she can cut the mustard before she shifts to a more (subtly) supportive instructional technique and builds her up into the sort of fighting machine she has the potential for.

[whitesycamore]

The methods used to break down the individual and rebuild them are much more subtle and psychological, relying on a continual high-stress environment and repeated drilling to obey orders instantly and without question, so that even if your brain runs off into a corner and hides, you'll still be able to function under fire. The classic "Strip the bed! Make the bed! Strip the bed! Make the bed!" and "Empty the pack! Pack the pack! Empty the pack! Pack the pack!" routines are examples of this; they seem like pointless things, but it's intended to both make following orders instinctive, and build an instinctive attention to detail.

That makes more sense, but I still don't agree that it is "breaking down an individual and rebuilding them." For one thing, that sounds ridiculous and hyperbolic, and for another that's not actually what's happening, is it? They are being trained to deal with extreme and unusual situations in an quick and instinctive way - that's hardly the annihilation and rebuilding of a personality,* that's adapting to and becoming skilled in a high-stress environment. I've always had a problem with the phrase precisely it's hilariously imprecise, and it has a disturbing power-tripping feel to it - part of me just think that any institution that would proudly claim to do such a thing must be either stupid or malign.

As for the sense of comradeship that beasting engenders... Well, I could believe that it was the most effective method of encouraging teamwork if the military didn't have such a terrible reputation for bullying, corruption and sexual violence - and a culture that provides a convenient smokescreen for such behaviour under the guise of 'training.' It's the same ethos that made English Public schools a hotbed of bullying, corruption and sexual violence when the fagging system was in place.

Hence Kate's behavior; she's putting Bette through the wringer to make sure she can cut the mustard before she shifts to a more (subtly) supportive instructional technique and builds her up into the sort of fighting machine she has the potential for.

If by "cut the mustard" you mean be subservient to a bloviating asshole, then sure. It isn't fun to read about though.

*Well ok, I have met one person who proudly claimed to have been broken down and rebuilt by the military, but if that was true then the military rebuilt him into a spineless, dimwitted dick. He was also the only murderer I've ever consciously known (murderer in a civilian setting, although he was still in the army when he did it).

[jeyl]

Kate loses points for dissing Bette? I didn't see no dissing. What I saw was soft core military discipline. Did Bette serve in the military? Was she told she couldn't fight anymore because of her orientation? Was Bette's father from the military? (Well, if any answers to these are yes, this comic missed some good character relation points I guess).

And it's not like she said no to Bette either. She's there right by her side when the action gets hot. Even when Kate's father comes in, Kate decides to fill Bette in on just how screwed up things have been since she's been Batwoman. I give Kate points for at least not holding back on this information until it actually mattered, instead of going the "You will never understand!" or "It's none of your business!" tropes that serve only to pad out relationship conflicts.

[icon_uk]

Did Bette serve in the military?

Probably not.

Was she told she couldn't fight anymore because of her orientation?

Which has any bearing on how Kate treats Bette how, exactly? The fact that Kate had to put up with (or more accurately and admirably chose NOT to put up with) the absurdity of DADT is irrelevant to her treatment of Bette as far as I can see.

I like the concept of Bette getting pointers from Kate, but not this execution of it. Bette is the more experienced hero.

[jeyl]

"Bette is the more experienced hero."

Yeah? Well so does Barbara Gordon as batgirl, and that didn't amount to crap. Point a gun in her general direction and you can get away with just about anything. Experience doesn't count for crap these days in comics.

[runespoor]

So we're judging Babs' worth as a hero on her first confrontation with a gun since she's able to walk again? Lovely. Seems like psychological trauma doesn't count for crap either.

[jeyl]

Yeah, I'm judging Babs' worth as a hero. Someone who's so eager to go fight crime yet doesn't even contemplate the notion that some bad guy could just happen to point a gun in her general direction?

But really, I question her worth as a hero when she existed in a world of incredible body enhancements, life restoration powers and body switching abilities yet doesn't want to use any of it to be able to walk again. And now with her comic, it's all "I got better!" and now she's thrown herself head long into a scenario where she's a danger to herself and others.

Soldiers, cops, anyone who has PTSD can certainly vouch for her case, but I wonder if she even tried to get any sort of professional counseling outside of just having a supportive family.

And one other thing. Unlike Babs, Kate doesn't talk to herself nearly as much. Look at the panel where she laments over Renee. Nothing is said nor thought.

[runespoor]

How the hell do you know she didn't think of it? There's a difference between going through something in your mind, judging "yeah, I can handle that", and being in that situation.

So basically you're blaming Babs for decisions editorial took for her. Well, that's one possible stand to take, I guess.

Again, how do you know she didn't? (And even if she didn't - again, editorial. Or do I get to blame Alfred for not getting Bruce professional counseling when he was younger, too?)

And one other thing. Unlike Babs, Kate doesn't talk to herself nearly as much. Look at the panel where she laments over Renee. Nothing is said nor thought.
...Yes? I never said otherwise? I don't see what that has to do with the rest, but for what it's worth, yes, you're right.

[jeyl]

"How the hell do you know she didn't think of it? There's a difference between going through something in your mind, judging "yeah, I can handle that", and being in that situation."

You're right. And if there was a scene like that in the comic, I think it would have added more complexity to her situation than just being randomly stunned out of her mind that someone points a gun at her. Even a little piece of narration from her could go a long way in establishing what she's getting in to and how that moment of pause pays off. You know? A set-up.

But the comic didn't touch upon that. I'm not going to give the story credit for something it didn't put in the comic.