whitesycamore: (Default)
[personal profile] whitesycamore posting in [community profile] scans_daily
So, the first issue of Red Hood and The Outlaws was... surprising.

So much so that I'm not sure what I thought of it. At all. It was very much an introductory issue, and as such it focuses mainly on who the three main characters are, and how they relate to each other. What is clear is that Roy, Jason and Kory have all had extensive changes and/or additions made to their back stories. I've posted three pages that I think illustrate this below the cut.



Some of it is good - like Roy and Jason apparently having something like a friendship...








...And some is bad. Kory now cares very little for individual humans, to the extent that she finds them completely forgettable. Seriously, she doesn't remember any of the Titans, even *Dick,* although her relationship with him is still canon. She has also seems to have lost the 'y' from the end of her name and is now called Kori. The writing and art are both extremely male gaze-y when it comes to Kory. She is depicted with a great deal of sexual agency, but the book drips with the assumption that the only people reading this are the 18-35 male bracket. I found it quite insulting.








Ok, so people who were wondering/worrying whether she might 'get with' Roy or Jason?








The obvious is somewhat subverted by the fact that she's done 'em both. Ordinarily I'd have thought that makes her a lucky lady who gets what she wants, but the rest of the book is so objectifying of her that I feel weird about it. There is potentially some interesting points to be made about her attitude to sexuality, but I think they got lost in her primary portrayal as a male fantasy-style 'nymphomaniac' - people spend an awful lot of time leering at, discussing and photographing Kory, managing to make themselves look like enormous douches in the process. Still, at least she's not being held to the usual comic book heroine standard of being sexy but not actually sexual, I guess? :/

As for the main plot (or what's foreshadowed to become the main plot), it's still very mysterious. It relates to Jason's hitherto unmentioned ties to an organisation called the All Caste. A creepy former member named Essence has come to ask for Jason's help with a string of murders connected to stolen organs, and to tell him that a female mentor of his named Ducra has been murdered. No, I have no idea what any of that means yet either.

Page 1 of 3 << [1] [2] [3] >>

Date: 2011-09-21 03:51 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kd_the_movie
yeahhhh that is disappointing.

I was hoping Kory would be just as strong a lead as Roy and Jason. In fact I was hoping that while both of them would be immensely attracted to her...she would be the one they can't have. That not only puts her on equal footing/role definition with her costars,but it also opens the gates for potential love interests outside of the main 3 (which still could happen mind you, it just becomes a tad more predictable).

Playing Starfire as the "LOL IM A HOT SEX LOVIN ALIEN" is such a huge and overused flanderization that I was really hoping it be obvious to Lobdell to avoid it.

Guess not (at least so far).

Date: 2011-09-21 03:59 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
"In fact I was hoping that while both of them would be immensely attracted to her...she would be the one they can't have."

Well, that is kind of a cliche' in and of itself, isn't it? I'm certain I've seen that story so many times. I would think her having both of them as booty calls is a little more unique AND allows for more potential love interests.

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Date: 2011-09-21 03:51 pm (UTC)
terrykun: (Default)
From: [personal profile] terrykun
...*facepalm*

Well, that's one more mark in the return policy's favor.

Date: 2011-09-21 09:13 pm (UTC)
rordulum: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rordulum
Yep.

I look at it this way, I can't stand Roy or Jason anyway, and this new Kory isn't a character I have any interest in. So as long as they're all stuck in this bag of shite, I don't have to see any of them.

Though, I'm fairly sure this book will fail quite dramatically, and they'll all end up shoehorned into Nightwing or Teen Titans.

Date: 2011-09-21 03:52 pm (UTC)
eyz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] eyz
I'm absolutely hating this Starfire from these above scans :/
Ughh... I miss the New Titans Starfire...

At least, Jason & Roy's friendship kinda fun it seems...right?...right?...

*goes back reading the old couple of Arsenal issues* I miss Lian :(

Date: 2011-09-21 09:09 pm (UTC)
rordulum: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rordulum
I don't know who that is, but it's not Starfire.

Oh, and you stay classy, DC.

Date: 2011-09-21 03:53 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
"...And some is bad. Kory now cares very little for individual humans, to the extent that she finds them completely forgettable. Seriously, she doesn't remember any of the Titans, even *Dick,* although her relationship with him is still canon."

I think there's more to it than that. From what Lobdell has said about Starfire's relationship with Dick, it sounds like they had a really rotten break-up. My guess is that it caused the "group" to fall apart in the process, and Kory remembers it all, but refuses to talk about it.

Also, I'm SO GLAD they're mixing up Jason's past with stuff like the All Castle. I personally found Lost Days to be really boring and an overall crap origin story for Red Hood.

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Date: 2011-09-21 04:01 pm (UTC)
crabby_lioness: (Default)
From: [personal profile] crabby_lioness
I need a bath to get the yuck off me.

I only made it halfway through that last page.

Date: 2011-09-21 04:03 pm (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
And to think I bought this to read on the way home from work tonight. That's 3 quid I won't see again, though it will be the last 3 quid that DC will see from me for this title.

Apropos of very little, "Kori" would technically be more accurate since her name is Koriand'r, the "y" was more for ease of humans reading it, though Kory Anders was her assumed name on Earth.

I agree that making her more alien and, as an example, having her ability to remember things being different from the human approach is an interesting way to go, but in the same way that making Jack Harkness omnisexual is an interesting idea; It's not the concept that's poor, it's the execution.

Based on this, I can't really imagine this Kori and Dick actually HAVING a relationship (Sex, perhaps, but a long term living together relationship.. not really), nor her having the same impact on his life and worldview that she did.

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Date: 2011-09-21 04:21 pm (UTC)
sun_man: this is Dick Grayson (Default)
From: [personal profile] sun_man
Screw this crap!!!!!!!

Date: 2011-09-21 04:26 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
i kinda know how you feel... i didn't HATE this... i mean there was a lot of good stuff. the friendships between jason and Roy for one.

its a little bothersome the Cheese cakey ness of the Kori art... but at the same time... Kory has never been a shy one (but at the same time again, this is from mostly male writers....so im... confused as to how i should feel) I would feel a lot more comfortable if there was more male semmi nudity (at least that way it would feel more balanced, i mean there was roy... but why not jason too he's a pasty Gotham boy, he needs sun)

i don't really have an issue with her sexuality. i don't see her as a nymphomaniac at all here. i see her as a woman who knows what she wants and goes for it. i don't see her CRAVING sex i see her saying "You are attractive, I am attractive, we are on a tropical island. what more do you need? If you want to, fine if not, its your loss"

like you said, she keeps her sexual agency.

i guess the real issue i have is her... flippancy towards her past human relationships... however, even there, i feel like it could be her "lying to her self" Kory has had a hard life, but she knows things in life are only temporary. maybe when she split with the Titans she didn't WANT to remember them. if that makes any sense. I think in reality she does remember them and does care for them, but won't allow herself to think about things that are in the past....

i didn't dislike this enough to not read it... it seems to have more potential than faults... so i will give it another issue or two....

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Date: 2011-09-21 04:34 pm (UTC)
terabient: Poorly drawn Noel Vermillion (Default)
From: [personal profile] terabient
I was all set to buy this book until I heard about Kory's characterization, and seeing it now...yeah.

well, more money for me!

Date: 2011-09-21 04:39 pm (UTC)
tauruschick12: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tauruschick12
The page of her sleeping with Roy got on Tumblr, and everyone proceeded to call Kory (Kori, though, now, which is actually closer to her real name) a dirty whore. UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Hm. The art objectifies her, it's true, but I'm trying to imagine if the art was different, would Kori come off as male fantasy as she does here? Art can make a world of difference- a perfectly strong sexually positive female character can turn into male fantasy character in 1, 2, 3.

Actions wise, I'm not bothered by anything she does. The whole 'Tamaraneans see humans as sights/smells/don't reallyc are about them' is probably just her fucking around with them because she's mad about the breakup, and if not, I'd actually be rather interested in seeing how that goes. It would be very much an 'alien' characteristic.

*sigh* Well, it's the first issue, let's see how this goes.

Also, if Kori has already slept with both, then that means only Jason and Roy have to sleep together to make my OTP come true! MUAHAHAHA

Date: 2011-09-21 04:41 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
Also, if Kori has already slept with both, then that means only Jason and Roy have to sleep together to make my OTP come true! MUAHAHAHA

what makes you think they haven't :)

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Date: 2011-09-21 04:46 pm (UTC)
mullon: (Starfire)
From: [personal profile] mullon
So far in the realunch, has there been a female character reintroduced that didn't have her sexing up someone or angsting over stupid crap?

Date: 2011-09-21 04:49 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
Batgirl.... JLI... Wonder Woman... BoP....Batwoman...

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Date: 2011-09-21 04:48 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
The book aside, I do like how we've somehow managed to have the book that everyone will dislike the most put up first, as opposed to the much-more-competent first issues of say, Batman and Wonder Woman. Probably just a coinki-dink, I know, but still. Awfully odd.

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Date: 2011-09-21 09:37 pm (UTC)
espanolbot: (Default)
From: [personal profile] espanolbot
Hey, that's MY job! :(

Date: 2011-09-21 05:06 pm (UTC)
darkblade: (Default)
From: [personal profile] darkblade
In response to the reoccurring theory that Kori has had her memories messed with to create her new characterization. This was supposed to be a reboot and every one of the new 52 was supposed to be a good jumping on point, to start a new series with plot points that require previous knowledge of the character to see coming is the absolute worst thing they could do.

Date: 2011-09-21 05:11 pm (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
i am going to have to disagree with you hear. debates about reboots and soft reboots aside....

Lobdell clearly stated that No story is ever a clean slate. unless you start a story from a character's birth all characters are going to have history and back story. that is part of the story telling process. in fact that is a major factor of THIS story. ALL three characters have a past. Kori, Jason and Roy all have past histy not only with each other but with themselves. and them facing thier past is going to be part of this first arc as well..

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Date: 2011-09-21 05:07 pm (UTC)
abriel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] abriel
On the one hand I am very sex-positive and I like seeing female characters basically own their bodies and own their sexualities and if she wants to sleep around, good on her. She was the one who approached Harper, not the other way around.

On the other, it seems so...fanboy-servicy and crude.

I don't know how I should feel about this.

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Date: 2011-09-21 05:10 pm (UTC)
kenn_el: Northstar_Hmm (Default)
From: [personal profile] kenn_el
I was way more interested in the Titans listed to 'jog' Kori's memory. (Yay Lilith!) Who is/was Dustin?

Date: 2011-09-21 06:42 pm (UTC)
pyrotwilight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pyrotwilight
I'm blanking on that too.

Maybe that was the name of the random guy Kory fell in love with for like an issue of New Teen Titans who was a former member of HIVE and died?

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Date: 2011-09-21 05:11 pm (UTC)
daggerpen: I <3 this pairing so much, and yes, I know, there's, like, no canonocial basis. I don't care. (Connor/Jason)
From: [personal profile] daggerpen
... um. Wow. What?

I'm with the others holding out hope that this was intended to read as "off" and will be a plot point later, if only because the alternative is just awful.

Date: 2011-09-21 05:19 pm (UTC)
thefiretonight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thefiretonight
I haven't read the book yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Kory's 'offness' is a bigger part of the confronting their pasts storyline that seems to be the first arc. Just sayin'.

Date: 2011-09-21 05:20 pm (UTC)
pyrotwilight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pyrotwilight
Hmm. Seems DC's trying their hardest to make alien's more alien as a whole.

The Super family's physiology seems very different.

And here we have Starfire acting in a way that is radically different than her prior self to sort of show a detachment from humanity as a whole? Kori's view of sexuality isn't odd in itself but it IS pretty weird given the whole New Teen Titans days still seem to be in continuity (short of Roy having had a kid apparently) unless as folks have mentioned above Kori might just be faking her attitude to get over breaking up with Dick.

And it's even more odd to think of how she'd be a member of the Titans if she can't member things or doesn't care to. :/

Date: 2011-09-21 07:07 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] darkknightjrk
I also saw someone mention that since it seems like Hood is going to be investigating some weird thing that cuts out organs without any marks while keeping them alive, maybe they cut out part of Starfire's brain? Like, the one that keeps long-term memories?

I mean, that would make for a hell of a title to entice someone in. "They Stole Starfire's Brain!"

Date: 2011-09-21 05:36 pm (UTC)
r0b666: (Default)
From: [personal profile] r0b666
I bought this out of curiosity andI don't think I'll be making a return trip for issue 2. The Titans fan in me hopes Kory(i) is putting on with her memory lapses. If not then... just ugh. The fan service is just TOO blatant.

I suppose it will be easy enough for another writer to explain this away somehow or just ignore it, but still...UGH.

Date: 2011-09-21 05:45 pm (UTC)
pyrotwilight: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pyrotwilight
Let's see. How can we make this somewhat better and retcon this retcon stuff?

Ooh. She's pregnant with Mar'i and Tamaraneans brains shutdown partially during pregnanacy thus she has amnesia. ....i dunno.

Date: 2011-09-21 06:19 pm (UTC)
star_of_airdrie: (Default)
From: [personal profile] star_of_airdrie
Well, she was at Ryan Choi's funeral at the end of the Titans run and so was Dick, so... WORKS FOR ME!!!

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Date: 2011-09-21 07:29 pm (UTC)
glprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glprime
+1, Liked, etc.

(tho I will say, any cheesecake with Kori is aight by me, each "New 52" preview gives me info on whether or not to pay attention to a new title or not. This is a NOT).

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From: [personal profile] icon_uk - Date: 2011-09-22 07:49 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-09-21 07:08 pm (UTC)
rdfox: Politics:  From the Greek "poly," meaning "many," and "tics," meaning "small bloodsucking insects."  --Dave Barry (politics)
From: [personal profile] rdfox
...oh. Oh X'Hal. Oh, X'HAL, no you didn't, DC.

I'm sorry, but I *love* Kory's character. I enjoyed her enough in the Titans cartoon that it got me to actually go find the Wolfman/Perez era "New Teen Titans" run to learn more about her, which is what got me started in the DCU. (Yes, the Timmverse helped, but it was Toon!Starfire that actually got me to get off my butt and start reading the original comics.) I loved what I saw so much that I've read *everything* with her in it that I've been able to get my hands on, even when it was something that's a genre I don't usually enjoy. (I'm not a big fan of "cosmic" hero books, but when Kory joined the REBELS, I started reading their book.) Hell, I loved the character and lore enough that I made my primary character on DCU Online be a Tamaranean girl (even though Barb's younger, gayer--literally--snarkier, and has a very different background), because I thought it would provide excellent opportunities for roleplaying amongst the players who know their DC lore.

This... OK, if I were to post what I *really* think of this, I'd almost certainly get in trouble with the mods, because it's got me hot enough about things that if you put a teakettle and steam turbine over me right now, you could probably power the entire Eastern Seaboard.

But the key points that I *can* post without getting into trouble are these:

1) KORY IS NOT AN IDIOT. She was rather naive about humans when she first came to Earth, true, but that's no different from, for example, someone who's lived her whole life in St. Louis suddenly being dropped into the middle of rural China. She was someplace new, where she didn't know the cultural rules, and as a result, she was something of a fish out of water. That doesn't make her STUPID.
2) KORY IS NOT A SLUT. And I hope using the term to refer to this mode isn't seen as slut-shaming; in my mind, there's a difference between a woman who is strongly sex-positive and sees a distinct separation between love and sex, and this sort of near-nymphomaniacal have-sex-with-everyone-you-meet-because-you-can sort of sluttiness that is more porn movie character than anything else. No, Kory doesn't equate sex with love; she's able to love without having sex, and enjoy sex without love being involved. But she's NOT the sort of person who just fucks anything on two legs because it might be fun. Hell, Marv Wolfman put it quite simply back in the early 80s: "She thoroughly enjoys sex and isn't ashamed that she does, but she doesn't jump into bed with just anybody."
3) KORY STAYS ON EARTH BECAUSE EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING SHE CARES ABOUT IS HERE. The only member of her family still alive is Komand'r, who she doesn't dare attempt to reconcile with, and with the destruction of the original Tamaran (which is apparently still in continuity), any places she has a sentimental or nostalgic "I miss my home" feel for are gone, too. If she didn't care about people and things here on Earth, she'd have gone to Rann, or Thanagar, or Okaara, or any one of the other worlds in the DCU where she could have found people she might (if we accept that idiotic "don't see humans as people" thing) actually see as people and be able to remember. The ONLY reason she left Earth and joined the REBELS was because her most recent breakup with Dick combined with seeing him wearing Batman's costume and becoming more dark as a result were too painful for her to be able to stay on Earth, where she might see or hear about him on occasion.

In short: KORY IS NOT A BRAINLESS FUCKTOY WITH NO EMPATHY OR ABILITY TO RELATE TO HUMANS. WHATEVER THIS REALDOLL YOU'VE SPRAY-PAINTED ORANGE IS, IT IS NOT STARFIRE!

Scott Lobdell, Dankor, Jim Lee, Bob Harras, and everyone else in editorial who approved this huge steaming pile of shit? I have just one thing to say to you:

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Date: 2011-09-21 07:13 pm (UTC)
filthysize: (Default)
From: [personal profile] filthysize
I do like one thing: kudos for not drawing out the sexual tension unnecessarily. It nips that whole thing in the bud by having this in the first issue and basically tells the leery fanboys, "Yeah, yeah, we know what you're thinking. Here, look, they do fuck each other and they're pretty casual about it. Satisfied? Let's move on."

Date: 2011-09-21 09:11 pm (UTC)
darkblade: (Default)
From: [personal profile] darkblade
So now we can drag out the tension between Roy and Jason for the rest of the series.

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From: [personal profile] joasakura - Date: 2011-09-21 10:16 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2011-09-21 07:15 pm (UTC)
kusonaga: (Default)
From: [personal profile] kusonaga
Besides Kory's odd characterization, I'm also a little bothered by Roy here. Sleeping with your best friend's ex? Not the kind of bro I would want.

Date: 2011-09-21 07:21 pm (UTC)
jaybee3: Nguyen Lil Cass (Default)
From: [personal profile] jaybee3
I made the same point above. Maybe Kory's memories are out of whack but it seems Roy is not and Lobdell has said their previous relationships with Dick is still canon. I can see pre-DCnU Roy sleeping with Huntress knowing Dick had been with her first but not Kory. Kory was someone special to Dick (they were almost married!) and yet here we have Roy not hesitant about having sex with her. Jason meanwhile is Dick's adopted brother (and while Winick played with Talia/Jason in Lost Days even he said in interviews it was not to be viewed as a "good thing" for either of them). I think the men come out worst in this scenario - especially if there is something wrong with Kory's memory.

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