Red Hood and The Outlaws #1

[whitesycamore]

So, the first issue of Red Hood and The Outlaws was... surprising.

So much so that I'm not sure what I thought of it. At all. It was very much an introductory issue, and as such it focuses mainly on who the three main characters are, and how they relate to each other. What is clear is that Roy, Jason and Kory have all had extensive changes and/or additions made to their back stories. I've posted three pages that I think illustrate this below the cut.



Some of it is good - like Roy and Jason apparently having something like a friendship...








...And some is bad. Kory now cares very little for individual humans, to the extent that she finds them completely forgettable. Seriously, she doesn't remember any of the Titans, even *Dick,* although her relationship with him is still canon. She has also seems to have lost the 'y' from the end of her name and is now called Kori. The writing and art are both extremely male gaze-y when it comes to Kory. She is depicted with a great deal of sexual agency, but the book drips with the assumption that the only people reading this are the 18-35 male bracket. I found it quite insulting.








Ok, so people who were wondering/worrying whether she might 'get with' Roy or Jason?








The obvious is somewhat subverted by the fact that she's done 'em both. Ordinarily I'd have thought that makes her a lucky lady who gets what she wants, but the rest of the book is so objectifying of her that I feel weird about it. There is potentially some interesting points to be made about her attitude to sexuality, but I think they got lost in her primary portrayal as a male fantasy-style 'nymphomaniac' - people spend an awful lot of time leering at, discussing and photographing Kory, managing to make themselves look like enormous douches in the process. Still, at least she's not being held to the usual comic book heroine standard of being sexy but not actually sexual, I guess? :/

As for the main plot (or what's foreshadowed to become the main plot), it's still very mysterious. It relates to Jason's hitherto unmentioned ties to an organisation called the All Caste. A creepy former member named Essence has come to ask for Jason's help with a string of murders connected to stolen organs, and to tell him that a female mentor of his named Ducra has been murdered. No, I have no idea what any of that means yet either.

Comments

[kd_the_movie]

yeahhhh that is disappointing.

I was hoping Kory would be just as strong a lead as Roy and Jason. In fact I was hoping that while both of them would be immensely attracted to her...she would be the one they can't have. That not only puts her on equal footing/role definition with her costars,but it also opens the gates for potential love interests outside of the main 3 (which still could happen mind you, it just becomes a tad more predictable).

Playing Starfire as the "LOL IM A HOT SEX LOVIN ALIEN" is such a huge and overused flanderization that I was really hoping it be obvious to Lobdell to avoid it.

Guess not (at least so far).

[darkknightjrk]

"In fact I was hoping that while both of them would be immensely attracted to her...she would be the one they can't have."

Well, that is kind of a cliche' in and of itself, isn't it? I'm certain I've seen that story so many times. I would think her having both of them as booty calls is a little more unique AND allows for more potential love interests.

[whitesycamore]

YES thank you.

It sounds like you understand what my problem is, here. An alternative but equally male-gaze driven story wouldn't exactly solve it.

[darkblade]

This is another thing that I like the idea of but the way it is presented puts me off.

If the rest of the book wasn't trying so hard to objectify her (and doing away with 99% of her past while we're at it despite it all apparently still happening) I would be generally interested but this just makes it come across as skeevey.

[darkknightjrk]

I dunno, I didn't particularly read it as skeevy. Really, she was wearing just about the same amount of clothing that's she's been wearing since Perez created her, and she's chilling out on the beach.

[whitesycamore]

Yeah, but the guy commenting on her? The kid snapping a pic and sticking it on the web? Roy and Jason discussing her in the jeep? That didn't give you a skeevy feeling at all?

[darkknightjrk]

Okay, again, going by the scans posted, I got the feeling that at least the scene with Jason talking about her memory deal was more about HIM being skeevy, not necessarily the writer being skeevy. When Kori asks Roy if he wants to make the Beast with Two Backs, he seemed kinda adorably flustered and more boy-like than anything skeevy.

[big_daddy_d]

You know honestly, Jason's dialogue seemed more skeevy, Roy doesn't seem as womanizing or flirtatious as his prebooted counter part. Jason is just boasting about how he slept with Kori and puffing his chest as if he was the bomb and he'd be the only thing on her mind. I agree with darkknightjrk, Roy comes off more..boy-like and curious. Besides, he was really surprised when she made the offer for sex. Hell I was surprised.

[whitesycamore]

Yep. It's all the other baggage, not the sex itself that bothers me.

Although tbh I am completely depressed about all the slut shaming Kory is going to get for this. :(

[shadowpsykie]

I have ALWAYS been depressed about the amount of slut shaming Kory has ALWAYS gotten... what a woman can't maintain her sexual agency and not be called a slut? when a guy can have sex with 5 differnet girls in the same issue/movie/book and he's a player? fucking double standards...

[tsunamiwombat]

I'm not slut shaming her, But I do feel she would have a bit more tact. A smile. A wink. Not just outright "would you like to have sex with me?".

That kind of kills the mood for one, and for two, she might realize being the 'hot chick' between two guys might spell trouble for the team dynamic? though I don't know what her overall relationship is with the outlaws so IDK...

I do like the arts.

[salinea]

But I do feel she would have a bit more tact. A smile. A wink. Not just outright "would you like to have sex with me?". That kind of kills the mood for one
She's not asking you for sex, so it doesn't matter if you think it kills the mood. I wouldn't mind directneness myself :p

for two, she might realize being the 'hot chick' between two guys might spell trouble for the team dynamic?
Why is she responsible for the team dynamic? If the two guys think this might spell trouble for it; why don't they just say "no" to the offer of sex? It's not a problem for her, obviously.

[icon_uk]

She explicitly states that sex and love have no connection for her, and both Roy and Jason now know this, so "Love interests" is hardly going to be a plot point here.

[darkknightjrk]

And? I was saying that her making them booty calls means that they can all potentially have romantic interests in the future. I don't see what you're trying to argue.

[icon_uk]

Ah right, I was reading your comment as the notion of her having a romance with either of them, not a third party. My mistake.

[darkknightjrk]

It's all good--wouldn't be the first time I misinterpreted something. :)

[whitesycamore]

I think she *is* as strong a lead as Roy and Jason, just over-objectified as well.

And I personally dislike the idea of both of them drooling over the unattainable Kory - I think if anything that's a more cliché story, which again is actually very male-perspective driven.

The hot-girl-you-can't-have is the kind of dude story that gets told over and over. I have to say I actually have no problem with Kory bagging both guys, I just wish it was told from her perspective and that we got to hear more about *her* attraction to *them.*

But the actual experiential part of female sexuality is very unpopular and uncomfortable to comic writers, it seems.

[kd_the_movie]

Ah I see.

I think your saying that the perspective, empowerment, and sexual fulfillment (are these the correct words?) is for the most part here, being told from the guys POV , when it could be equally distributed among the cast (after all SHE'S sleeping with them too); and that the problem is Kory beating treated as the sexual object, as opposed to being a PERSON engaging in sex with other people?

Which if done right, is a more mature and different form of displaying relationships. I just have no faith in most comic book writers to do it correctly lol (even the talented ones).

[whitesycamore]

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.

We see a lot of Roy's/Jason's/random little boy's desire for *her* - we don't get the chance to see through her eyes and experience any of the reciprocal attraction she obviously feels back.

Presumably because that might make a *man8 the object of desire, which would of course be totally gay. :/

[shadowpsykie]

maybe this is reaching... but maybe showing too much from HER perspective would give too much away... what i mean is, like it is clearly stated in this thread... something seems to be off with Kori. its somethign we can't quite put our finger on... but the its so clear in the comic it can't be just guessing. but what ever it is, if we got too much of her thoughts, maybe we would know too much about the story.... if that makes any sense...

again. i have faith in Lobdell... there is more potenital for good here than for bad.

[tsunamiwombat]

I'm holding out for "Kory is conning Jason to keep an eye on him for Dick and we'll find out at the end she was just playing off his own adolescent fantasies for her own end"

[salinea]

Would that really make it better? "female character uses her sexuality in order to manipulate a male character for the sake of another male character she used to be involved with" doesn't sound very progressive as a portrayal to me.

[a_l_baroza]

Haven't read this yet, but it seems like although she possesses sexual agency, there's no interiority. If she's supposed to be primal instincts and sensory perception, like Wolverine, that's fine, but we get to *see* what Logan's thinking about in his books. This kind of smacks of pure objectification.

[tsunamiwombat]

Thats a brilliant and sadly unlikly way to make this all a bit less skeevy to me, explore HER sexual desires and how she see's the boys. It could be as simple as a page of her checking one of them out, I mean, they are on the beach and pretty fit...

[icon_uk]

I think she *is* as strong a lead as Roy and Jason, just over-objectified as well.

Old Kory perhaps, but I didn't even get that from this story's new Kori. She takes no initiative at all that I could tell in combat. She follows Jason's orders and that's it, even if she'd said something like "I see tanks up ahead. Do you think I should melt them or explode them?" I'd have felt some sense of self motivation, instead she only even acknowledges the tanks because Jason asks her to destroy them.

And her weird new memory, and inability to tell humans apart (even Roy and Jason) surely bodes ill for her contributions on a tactical level, when as a trained warrior there should be more to her than being a good soldier.

[terrykun]

...*facepalm*

Well, that's one more mark in the return policy's favor.

[rordulum]

Yep.

I look at it this way, I can't stand Roy or Jason anyway, and this new Kory isn't a character I have any interest in. So as long as they're all stuck in this bag of shite, I don't have to see any of them.

Though, I'm fairly sure this book will fail quite dramatically, and they'll all end up shoehorned into Nightwing or Teen Titans.

[eyz]

I'm absolutely hating this Starfire from these above scans :/
Ughh... I miss the New Titans Starfire...

At least, Jason & Roy's friendship kinda fun it seems...right?...right?...

*goes back reading the old couple of Arsenal issues* I miss Lian :(

[rordulum]

I don't know who that is, but it's not Starfire.

Oh, and you stay classy, DC.

[darkknightjrk]

"...And some is bad. Kory now cares very little for individual humans, to the extent that she finds them completely forgettable. Seriously, she doesn't remember any of the Titans, even *Dick,* although her relationship with him is still canon."

I think there's more to it than that. From what Lobdell has said about Starfire's relationship with Dick, it sounds like they had a really rotten break-up. My guess is that it caused the "group" to fall apart in the process, and Kory remembers it all, but refuses to talk about it.

Also, I'm SO GLAD they're mixing up Jason's past with stuff like the All Castle. I personally found Lost Days to be really boring and an overall crap origin story for Red Hood.

[whitesycamore]

I think there's more to it than that. From what Lobdell has said about Starfire's relationship with Dick, it sounds like they had a really rotten break-up. My guess is that it caused the "group" to fall apart in the process, and Kory remembers it all, but refuses to talk about it.

Hmm, that's interesting! I could actually totally buy that Kory is faking it to avoid uncomfortable conversations, if it weren't for the fact that on one page she thinks about how she likes spending time with Roy and Jason, it's just a pity she has such a hard time remembering which is which....

[darkknightjrk]

Well, I guess she has to really go out and sell it? Not to mention that she at least has to "forget" Roy because he was apparently part of that group. I wouldn't be surprised if she warms up and steadily "remembers" them during the course of the series.

[whitesycamore]

This was a private monologue though, so I doubt she was faking.

[darkknightjrk]

Ah. Shows what I get for trying to make up theories for a comic I haven't fully read yet.

Well, in that case, maybe she'll adapt to the human method of memory as well? Or maybe she did in the past with them and closed it up because the break-up memories were painful? Granted, I'm doing the same theorizing again, but hey, I like doing that kinda stuff.

I'm just saying, if Lobdell was able to combine the 90s Superboy and the YJ Superboy into one cohesive character, he can do the same for Starfire here.

[whitesycamore]

Yeah, having processed it a little I *do* think Kory was supposed to be "off." I think her memory loss might be something that's been done to her, not a natural part of who she is.

[tsunamiwombat]

It does seem to be looking more and more likly someones messed with her memory, which means theres a shadowy force manipulating the outlaws. Who was the black Silhouette Jason was talking to?

[whitesycamore]

It was Essence, a creepy but cool-looking lady who wanted to tell Jason about some mysterious group of people who seem to be able to steal people's organs without using surgery -like, magicking them out of people's bodies. She was asking for Jason's help.

I have a suspicion that the organ thieves may have done something to Kory's mind. A possible alien connection was definitely mentioned.

[werehawk]

She could have had a nervous breakdown. She got hit on by Buddy Baker (Animal Man) who was her close friend and very married, then was seeing a psychiatrist in Titans 18 or 18 or 19, then left earth for REBELS, had a relationship with Captain Comet (who Starlin youthenized and basically made into an asshole). So if that went poorly, it could have put her over the edge.

[kenn_el]

Makes me wonder if the dialogue wasn't written before they changed Jason's hair color, because THAT would be amusing.

[crabby_lioness]

I need a bath to get the yuck off me.

I only made it halfway through that last page.

[icon_uk]

And to think I bought this to read on the way home from work tonight. That's 3 quid I won't see again, though it will be the last 3 quid that DC will see from me for this title.

Apropos of very little, "Kori" would technically be more accurate since her name is Koriand'r, the "y" was more for ease of humans reading it, though Kory Anders was her assumed name on Earth.

I agree that making her more alien and, as an example, having her ability to remember things being different from the human approach is an interesting way to go, but in the same way that making Jack Harkness omnisexual is an interesting idea; It's not the concept that's poor, it's the execution.

Based on this, I can't really imagine this Kori and Dick actually HAVING a relationship (Sex, perhaps, but a long term living together relationship.. not really), nor her having the same impact on his life and worldview that she did.

[whitesycamore]

Thinking about this more, I expect that Kory's memory loss will probably be a plot point later on. I'm not convinced it's entirely her alien nature that's making her forget her past.

The main plot involves organs being stolen from people without cuts or surgery, while they're still alive. Is it possible that Kory's memory was also stolen?

Lobdell also mentions Kori's joyous nature in interviews, and that wasn't very obvious here. she didn't even seem like she enjoyed the *sex,* she just seemed to have some sullen voracious commitment to having as much of it as possible.

I think something is supposed to be wrong with her.

[shadowpsykie]

I think something is supposed to be wrong with her.
i think there is somethign wrong with all of them.

part of the coming plot seems to involve them facing thier pasts.

i still have faith in Lobdell, perhaps this portrayal is SUPPOSED to make us feel like something is off...

i mean like you said, its good enough and "on" enough that we don't hate it... but off enough so that we just feel... well we don't know how to feel actually....

[myhovercraftisfullofeels]

I definitely agree that there's something more to Kori's short-term memory factor than meets the eye. I'm almost positive it will be a plot point later on, something to do with memory loss or something like that.

Or maybe I'm just being hopeful, because I've always loved Kori and I don't want to see her character massacred like this.

[icon_uk]

Yeah there was a distinct lack of passion from her (in any sense of the term) and that's... just not Starfire.

If she is suffering from some strange form of externally caused amnesia/brain bending then it seems a singularly poor approach to use in a story that introduces her and sets up the scenario, because like it or not, this IS her "First Impression" moment, which will colour future perception of her for new readers.

[littlepunkryo]

This actually makes me curious about Dick and Kori's relationship, because everyone was getting the impression from Lobdell's interviews that it was a bad breakup but maybe they're retconned it so that it wasn't a "bad relationship end" so much as it was barely a relationship at all to her, so why would she think of him fondly, or at all? We'll have to see, I guess. I'm not sure how it gels with everything that happened between them still being canon, though, because Kori definitely loved him in the Titans books.

[sun_man]

Screw this crap!!!!!!!

[shadowpsykie]

i kinda know how you feel... i didn't HATE this... i mean there was a lot of good stuff. the friendships between jason and Roy for one.

its a little bothersome the Cheese cakey ness of the Kori art... but at the same time... Kory has never been a shy one (but at the same time again, this is from mostly male writers....so im... confused as to how i should feel) I would feel a lot more comfortable if there was more male semmi nudity (at least that way it would feel more balanced, i mean there was roy... but why not jason too he's a pasty Gotham boy, he needs sun)

i don't really have an issue with her sexuality. i don't see her as a nymphomaniac at all here. i see her as a woman who knows what she wants and goes for it. i don't see her CRAVING sex i see her saying "You are attractive, I am attractive, we are on a tropical island. what more do you need? If you want to, fine if not, its your loss"

like you said, she keeps her sexual agency.

i guess the real issue i have is her... flippancy towards her past human relationships... however, even there, i feel like it could be her "lying to her self" Kory has had a hard life, but she knows things in life are only temporary. maybe when she split with the Titans she didn't WANT to remember them. if that makes any sense. I think in reality she does remember them and does care for them, but won't allow herself to think about things that are in the past....

i didn't dislike this enough to not read it... it seems to have more potential than faults... so i will give it another issue or two....

[whitesycamore]

I basically agree with everything you've said It's not Kory's actions which bother me but the art, the way that Roy and Jason discuss her, and the random little kid photographing her and talking about putting the pic on the internet while some off-panel man makes comments about her body. I mean, was that supposed to be funny?!

It's the blatant objectification that I found disturbing, not the sex itself. I was also really creeped out by the memory loss, and the way that Roy didn't seem at all bothered by that even though he (presumably?) used to work with her.

i guess the real issue i have is her... flippancy towards her past human relationships... however, even there, i feel like it could be her "lying to her self" Kory has had a hard life, but she knows things in life are only temporary. maybe when she split with the Titans she didn't WANT to remember them. if that makes any sense. I think in reality she does remember them and does care for them, but won't allow herself to think about things that are in the past....

I am actually beginning to wonder if Kory's mind has been 'tampered' with by some outside force, and whether this will become a plot point soon. Her disconnectedness is quite disturbing,and doesn't hold true to what Lobdell said about her being a fundamentally joyous person, imo.

[shadowpsykie]

am actually beginning to wonder if Kory's mind has been 'tampered' with by some outside force, and whether this will become a plot point soon. Her disconnectedness is quite disturbing,and doesn't hold true to what Lobdell said about her being a fundamentally joyous person, imo.

exactly.

also as far as the objectification.. some how (and i know its gonna sound like i am making excuses for the writer, maybe its because so far this seems very unllike what i know of him) maybe its SUPPOSED to bother us... i mean Kory has never been shy about showing her body, but those weren't just "Funny remarks" they were, jarring and troublesome....

again it feels like Lobdell is trying to show us that there is something very off and wrong with the situation, not just Kory.

again maybe i am reaching, but as a writer... i tend to look beneath what is written on the page to what is trying to be conveyed.

[18lemons]

I'd like to think that Kori is aware of how attractive she is and how others perceive her and that she's put it forward to Roy early because she's aware that it could become an issue later. Like she's just being totally up front with people.

Then again I've not read this book yet and I've never read anything with Kory in before, so I'll post a more informed opinion once I've read this.

[whitesycamore]

Er... I think it might be more because she's aware of how attractive *Roy* is? Makes far more sense to me. A woman doesn't usually feel compelled to sleep with a guy just because he finds *her* hot.

[shadowpsykie]

but i see what he is saying. he's essentially having two separate thoughts, the first one is that she knows she is attractive, so she does not shy away from that.

the second one is that if she decides that it might be problematic to thier working relationship, and she see's that Roy is attracted to her, she might think, "Look, you think i'm hot, you're not too bad yourself, lets get this out of the way before we get back to work and this becomes an issue"

also yeah i think she finds them both attractive (they are both lithe sexy red heads, who would NOT be attracted to that:)

[darkknightjrk]

"also yeah i think she finds them both attractive (they are both lithe sexy red heads, who would NOT be attracted to that:)"

Well, Jason's dyed his hair back to black again, which I think kinda blows. I think Morrison said it best--gingers need their heroes too. Ron Weasley isn't enough. XD

[18lemons]

That's a fair point to make and admittedly my explanation of what I was trying to put forward was very lacking, but the impression I've got from this thread is that Jason and Roy are perceiving her to be some kind of sex object.
Understandably, Roy and Jason are both attractive guys, they're comic book characters, they have perfect physiques, but they're not nearly sexually objectified as Kori is being made out to be.
I was just throwing the idea out there that Kori's approach to this might be something akin to "There, it happened, now you don't have to waste time on distractions like fantasising about me." Like I said, I've not read this book yet and I'll come back with a more informed decision once I have.

[whitesycamore]

Understandably, Roy and Jason are both attractive guys, they're comic book characters, they have perfect physiques, but they're not nearly sexually objectified as Kori is being made out to be.

Yes, I noticed. >:(

You're getting it all backwards, comic - all backwards! *shakes fist*

[darkknightjrk]

"and the way that Roy didn't seem at all bothered by that even though he (presumably?) used to work with her."

The way the dialogue reads, it makes me think that Roy knew a lot of the Titans, but wasn't a big member of the group. He may have met Starfire in passing, or more likely heard about her.

[icon_uk]

Which would tie in with "New Teen Titans", where Roy wasn't a member, he was an occasional guest at the Tower, an old buddy that dropped by from time to time.

But they certainly did meet, and Roy even made a light hearted pass at her before going too far with his comments, and she basically threw him out the door and into a wall.

[darkknightjrk]

Maybe she secretly likes him more that he's a little older? It's one thing to be a super-cool hero or a mysterious bad boy, but it's another to be a hero with a mysterious bad boy past. That must get him a lot of play. :P

[icon_uk]

She doesn't remember him then, and can barely tell him apart from Jason now, that does not bode well for him having made any sort of an impact.

[darkknightjrk]

Unless she's lying to them and herself, or something is affecting her memory outside of her alien senses. Memories and their pasts definitely seem like a theme that's going to be going on, especially when we get to #3:

"Red Hood, Arsenal and Starfire enter the Chamber of All to discover what the Untitled wanted – but they’ll need to leave their most cherished memories as collateral! And when you’re a reincarnated sidekick who lets your madon get the better of you, a former addict turned soldier of fortune, and an intergalactic princess who never quite recovered from a childhood spent as a prisoner of war…? Well, there aren’t a lot of cherished memories to choose from! All this as the trio draws ever closer to dealing with a threat that’s already killed the ancient caste of assassins who taught Jason Todd everything he knows about the art of killing!"

[icon_uk]

If one of your three leads is either delusional about her own history or being influenced in some way and so completely unaware of it that that warped mindset features in her inner monologues, that's a genuinely bizarre way of re-launching an already well known character, in the middle of a soft-reboot of your shared universe where nothing can be taken as a given.

[darkknightjrk]

Sure, there's a bit of story to it, but it makes sense, considering that Lobdell's said in the past that the only way you can start a story of a character with a blank slate is if you start from birth.

[whitesycamore]

And if there's one thing we know about DC, it;'s that they never make bizarre or ill-advised creative decisions....

[werehawk]

True. Joyous loving of sex is more like Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. He just did because he enjoyed it and so did everyone he had sex with.

[terabient]

I was all set to buy this book until I heard about Kory's characterization, and seeing it now...yeah.

well, more money for me!

[whitesycamore]

I still not entirely sure if this is supposed to be Kory's 'true' characterisation. There was a definitely a vibe that there was a whoooole load of stuff we don't know yet, including the possibility that there might be something wrong with Kory.

the entire issue felt like being dropped in the deep end, to me. I'm not sure I have enough of a clue about what's going on to judge it.

[tauruschick12]

The page of her sleeping with Roy got on Tumblr, and everyone proceeded to call Kory (Kori, though, now, which is actually closer to her real name) a dirty whore. UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Hm. The art objectifies her, it's true, but I'm trying to imagine if the art was different, would Kori come off as male fantasy as she does here? Art can make a world of difference- a perfectly strong sexually positive female character can turn into male fantasy character in 1, 2, 3.

Actions wise, I'm not bothered by anything she does. The whole 'Tamaraneans see humans as sights/smells/don't reallyc are about them' is probably just her fucking around with them because she's mad about the breakup, and if not, I'd actually be rather interested in seeing how that goes. It would be very much an 'alien' characteristic.

*sigh* Well, it's the first issue, let's see how this goes.

Also, if Kori has already slept with both, then that means only Jason and Roy have to sleep together to make my OTP come true! MUAHAHAHA

[shadowpsykie]

Also, if Kori has already slept with both, then that means only Jason and Roy have to sleep together to make my OTP come true! MUAHAHAHA

what makes you think they haven't :)

[tauruschick12]

*GASP*

[shadowpsykie]

heh there was definate.... homor eroticism or at least double entendres soaking in thier conversations before Kori was even around :D

[tauruschick12]

:D Muahahaha, then it's all the more fanfiction fodder for me!

[shadowpsykie]

glad i could help :D

[icon_uk]

He's like... Dick's kid brother AND the one who has tried to kill Dick, Tim and Damian several times. I have a hard enough time buying Roy and Jason working together, anything beyond that just plain doesn't work in my head.

[whitesycamore]

:D :D :D

Thanks for your comment. All the disgust was... starting to disgust me. I hate how visceral people get in their reactions to female sexuality, even if it is problematic.

I don't know if I made it clear, but the art was a *big* part of my problem, although there was a lot of objectification embedded in the text too, and it came from everyone - not just Jason and Roy.

I feel like Lobdell really messed up here. He could have written Kory acting in the exact same way and made it 100% less skeevy is he hadn't been so committed to turning her into a fan service figure.

[tauruschick12]

*Thanks for your comment. All the disgust was... starting to disgust me. I hate how visceral people get in their reactions to female sexuality, even if it is problematic.*

Yeah, people have been getting really nasty. 'Kory has sex a lot, but only when she's in love with them!!!! She's not a slut who has sex with people she doesn't know well or doesn't care about!!!!' and such and such. It's like, uh, no, guys, she's a rather sexually open character.

"I don't know if I made it clear, but the art was a *big* part of my problem, although there was a lot of objectification embedded in the text too, and it came from everyone - not just Jason and Roy."

Ugh, yeah, the art really is pretty disgusting in portraying her. Hopefully, it will get better, or we'll get a new artist, or something.

And, ugh, there was objectification in the text? Ugh, wonderful.

*sigh* Nonetheless, I won't drop this unless this continues for the next few issues. I KNOW the writer can write women well and write other people treating them well, so this will hopefully improve.

[shadowpsykie]

*sigh* Nonetheless, I won't drop this unless this continues for the next few issues. I KNOW the writer can write women well and write other people treating them well, so this will hopefully improve.

which is the main reason I am not dropping this book yet. if we are supposed to take the surface as is... its far beneath Lobdell as a writer...

[jaybee3]

I'm actually peeved more about the Jason/Roy angle. Their relationships (adopted brother/BFF) with Dick are still canon according to Lobdell too right? So jumping into bed with Kory (I refuse to use the "i") without even a second's hesitation is a kinda disrespect to THEIR relationships with him (at least with Roy it is). There is a "bro" law against that kind of thing (they even made a whole episode of "How I Met Your Mother" about it).

All in all, I think it might have been better to retcon away the Dick/Kory relationship altogether. If it was just casual in this new DCnU that kinda ruins the whole point of it. And if it wasn't - and especially if Kory's memory is out of whack and both Roy/Jason are aware of it - then it makes the two men not look too "heroic" (well again with Roy at least - if Lobdell is following Winick's Lost Days then Jason might get a kick out of sleeping with his brother's ex).

[filthysize]

I saw one blog post that was angry because apparently "Jason respects women so he doesn't sleep around and would never do that to Kori!!!!!!111!!1!"

I must have missed the memo about how two friends having casual, consensual sex is a sign of disrespect.

[whitesycamore]

I hope that wasn't my post you were referring to? Because I made one about how Jason didn't used to be the kind of guy who'd *brag about/discuss* a woman as though she was a trophy.

[tauruschick12]

No, I don't think they were talking about you, because I saw almost the exact same thing on tumblr?

And the person I saw on tumblr wasn't talking about how Jason wouldn't brag about a woman like a trophy, they were talking about how Jason would never have casual no strings attached sex with a woman. :/

Because, you know, casual sex is a terrible thing to have with a woman because they are precious delicate flowers.

[whitesycamore]

The cad.

[icon_uk]

Because I made one about how Jason didn't used to be the kind of guy who'd *brag about/discuss* a woman as though she was a trophy.

Given that, AFAIK, up until this issue we had only one confirmed sexual partner for Jason in his entire life and that was TALIA, I'm not sure we had a lot of evidence either way.

[whitesycamore]

He has always had a tendency to empathize with/respect women more than he does other men though.

[whitesycamore]

Although actually, probably not, since mine was a two sentence reblog on tumblr, hardly a "blog post."

[littlepunkryo]

Oh my god I was so pissed at the world this morning because a large chunk of reaction to this was basically going 'omg Kori is just giving it away now, what the hell, she's not one of those kinds of girls, she's not a bimbo!' and I was like...really?

I have no problem at all with not liking this character change cause it IS a huge one but when you're actually losing terms like 'she's giving it away' and 'she used to be better than this' and that's your whole huge issue, that she's 'one of those girls' now, then it starts to bother me, because it seems like you really dislike it because she's having sex for the 'wrong' reasons, not that it's very male gaze-y, you know?

[tauruschick12]

I know, right? The 'starfire' tag on Tumblr is a fucking pithole right now.

I think fandom needs to understand that: Sexual objectification = bad, but female character taking control of her sexuality = good. Because they don't seem to get it.

[littlepunkryo]

Exactly. They are two separate issues, and really should be addressed as such. Kori choosing to have sex with whoever she wants for whatever reasons she wants = good (as long as it's her choice, because I know some people are kind of iffy on the amnesia bit); that entire storyline being about sexual objectification = bad. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be written, necessarily, just that the reasons behind it need to change, if that makes sense.

[werehawk]

She had already appeared in a Playboy-esque mag (I think in Green Lantern written by Ron Marz) in the 90s, so she was at least showing it to everyone before (and look at her costume from Day 1). Not the same as sex I know, but in that direction.

[abriel]

The page of her sleeping with Roy got on Tumblr, and everyone proceeded to call Kory (Kori, though, now, which is actually closer to her real name) a dirty whore.

Yeah, I expect that a lot of the fanboy messageboards are full of that shit and that's why I'm going to avoid it.

I remember the same thing happened during the Dark Avengers run when Moonstone nailed two (maybe four?) of the guys on the team. I saw her get called a slut and a whore and was like "really?" Granted Bendis didn't help matters in his writing but sadly such misogyny and attitudes towards female sexuality isn't very uncommon among geek culture.

[tauruschick12]

"Granted Bendis didn't help matters in his writing but sadly such misogyny and attitudes towards female sexuality isn't very uncommon among geek culture."

But of course! They believe girls should be mega hot and unattainable, always posing in skimpy outfits with her ass and bust out, and should ONLY sleep with the character the dudebros identify with most and ONLY at the end of the series.

God forbid a woman actually sleep with more than one dude, as well as being the person to initiate it! Or saying she wants nothing to do with love. Then she's a slut! :/

Urghhhh this is why I don't go on comic anythings except for scans_daily.

[whitesycamore]

But of course! They believe girls should be mega hot and unattainable, always posing in skimpy outfits with her ass and bust out, and should ONLY sleep with the character the dudebros identify with most and ONLY at the end of the series.

This this THIS.

[darkknightjrk]

"The page of her sleeping with Roy got on Tumblr, and everyone proceeded to call Kory (Kori, though, now, which is actually closer to her real name) a dirty whore. UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"

That annoys me too--especially when it's folks who try to make themselves as liberal and sex-positive.

[tauruschick12]

"That annoys me too--especially when it's folks who try to make themselves as liberal and sex-positive."

Ugh, yes, that's what surprised me- and yet, also didn't surprise me- about the fan reaction to this. I had to unfollow two people on tumblr, the stuff they were saying was THAT bad. Stuff like 'They made her a whore! The only thing worse if they had an- ugh- threesome!' People who posted stuff on how slut-shaming was bad *two days* ago were saying this, I'm serious.

[darkknightjrk]

At this point, I hope they do, just to upset them more.

[tauruschick12]

I do too, but then again, I ship them as OT3. XD

[whitesycamore]

I third it, because MMF threesomes - aka "the hot kind" - are so under-represented.

[darkknightjrk]

STARFIRE: You can make the Eiffel Tower with me all you want...but I want something first.

JASON: What?

STARFIRE: Put your pale human bodies together and make out for me. *grin*

[tauruschick12]

APPROVAL +15

[benicio127]

The art objectifies her, it's true, but I'm trying to imagine if the art was different, would Kori come off as male fantasy as she does here? Art can make a world of difference- a perfectly strong sexually positive female character can turn into male fantasy character in 1, 2, 3.

Absolutely, though I find that happens A LOT with Kory. I think it's also the subservience (ie. "Jason, is there anything else I can do?") along with the objectifying art that raises my squick factor really high. All this does is tell me that the only reason she's in this book is to be a sexual object.

And I really think a male audience is not the audience you want to go for when writing a book that includes Jason, Roy and Kory. I know that Jason has a big female fanbase.

I think the fanservice-y aspects of Kory have always raised my warning bells. If the writer doesn't change what he's doing, then he shouldn't be writing her. I really hope he does start to flesh out her character much more (um... pun actually not intended...)

This does bother me because I want this book to do well. But as of right now, I wish Kory *wasn't* in the book. :/

[sistermagpie]

I feel like unfortunately even if he did start to flesh out her character we're still talking about a really gross team dynamic. The two guys already see her as an unexpected and amusing sex gift. Jason's already bragged about her (changing any "she's just a girl who isn't afraid to ask for the sex she wants" into "she can't tell when she's being disrespected so laugh all you want!") , Roy's already slept with her after ascertaining how little respect he has to pay to anything like her own emotional state. It's not just her personality (that "You are boring me" is such a classic sexist line) but their attitude towards her that is imo impossible to fix because it's already presented as funny and acceptable.

[benicio127]

This is a good comment.

Though, to be honest, as I said before, I've always had a problem with some of the more problematic aspects about Kory and how fanservice-y aspects of her have been portrayed. (I recall reading something where she went into Dick's room to wait for him and it was written as very male fantasy/gaze-y)

[sistermagpie]

Yes, I've always felt conflicted about Kory because she seemed like she basically was created as a male fantasy. It happened that she was also given other personality traits that were admirable so you felt bad dismissing her as such. Like there was nothing wrong with her friendship with Donna, and a lot of her relationship with Dick was about him coming to admire and respect her.

I think a lot of us came to see those things as central to her character with the fan-service being an unfortunate superficial thing. (And watching things like Teen Titans Go validated that idea.) But apparently to some, especially male writers, it's actually the sex fantasy that's the backbone of her character. Or the total sum of her character!

[junipepper]

The two guys already see her as an unexpected and amusing sex gift.

Oh, thank you -- that's exactly what was irritating me, but I hadn't quite articulated it. OK, yes: Ick.

[mullon]

So far in the realunch, has there been a female character reintroduced that didn't have her sexing up someone or angsting over stupid crap?

[shadowpsykie]

Batgirl.... JLI... Wonder Woman... BoP....Batwoman...

[mrstatham]

Well, not everyone's read WW or BOP yet, but Batgirl did have, arguably, a large amount of angsting. Whether it's 'stupid crap' or not, well... And Batwoman's dealing with the stuff regarding her sister. Not exactly angst-free.

[shadowpsykie]

yeah b ut you said angsting over stupid crap. Batwoman has a legitimate issue, so does Barbara. Barbara is recovering from PTSD, and Kate is still dealing with the fact that her father has been lying toher for 20 years.

just saying ;D

[mrstatham]

I wasn't the one who called the angsting 'stupid crap'. And whether or not the angsting in a book *is* 'stupid crap' or not is entirely up to the reader, as I said. I don't mind the angst in Batwoman, but I personally found the angst of Batgirl to be a little too overblown and farcical, given the incidents in the book.

[shadowpsykie]

oh yeah i meant to be refering to both posts (yours and Mullon's) sorry, i was thinking of shirtless Jason at the time....

yeah YMMV on that subject, i though the reactions of the people (that one cop) around babs was more... farcical than anything babs was thinking i think she had legitimate fears (again YMMV)

[mrstatham]

I think Batgirl's one of those things where we do need to see next month's issue before jumping to conclusions, but I did find the pages posted rather awkward and overblown. But the characters around Babs, especially that cop, were worse.

[mrstatham]

Wonder Woman. She's nude in bed when we first meet her (but that's not unique to Azzarello, apparently, before anyone jumps in shrieking), but she's pretty much all business and very badass.

[mullon]

That's good to hear. Someone should post that.

[mrstatham]

I totally would, but lack the resources to do so. Hopefully, we'll have pages up soon though, because I thought WW 1 in general was a hell of a kick-off.

[mrstatham]

The book aside, I do like how we've somehow managed to have the book that everyone will dislike the most put up first, as opposed to the much-more-competent first issues of say, Batman and Wonder Woman. Probably just a coinki-dink, I know, but still. Awfully odd.

[whitesycamore]

No coincidence. I just don't really give a shit about the Batman and Wonder Woman books.

What is the point you're making?

[mrstatham]

I don't even know as I was trying to make a point, I just found it odd that a book that's likely to be received poorly is the first one of this week's new 52 to have pages put up here. Just an observation I probably shouldn't have come out with, but it wasn't really directed at or intended to insult anyone.

[marco]

Honestly, that worked out fantastically for me. I was so disappointed with these scans (and so much more so when I read the actual comic), but seeing the Wondy stuff made my day. And I'm sure reading that actual comic will be the highlight of my week.

[shadowpsykie]

well whitesycamore has great love for Kori, so of course she was going to post this the moment she got her hands on it :D

that aside, she had problems with the issue, most of us did, but not everyone up and up hated it... we feel... confused is what it is...

(im actually anxious for the other books to be postd, i hear wonder woman was excellent)

[darkknightjrk]

People like to get their opportunities to rant. Presumably Red Hood had better fodder for that then WW right this second. I assume that the next post will be the big sex scene from Catwoman.

And by "assume," I mean, "hope and pray."

[sinisterlink]

Wow, they managed to take a character I've never liked at all and make me dislike her even more. Nice going, DC!

[espanolbot]

Hey, that's MY job! :(

[darkblade]

In response to the reoccurring theory that Kori has had her memories messed with to create her new characterization. This was supposed to be a reboot and every one of the new 52 was supposed to be a good jumping on point, to start a new series with plot points that require previous knowledge of the character to see coming is the absolute worst thing they could do.

[shadowpsykie]

i am going to have to disagree with you hear. debates about reboots and soft reboots aside....

Lobdell clearly stated that No story is ever a clean slate. unless you start a story from a character's birth all characters are going to have history and back story. that is part of the story telling process. in fact that is a major factor of THIS story. ALL three characters have a past. Kori, Jason and Roy all have past histy not only with each other but with themselves. and them facing thier past is going to be part of this first arc as well..

[darkblade]

Pasts can be shown to new readers in flash backs and what have yous so facing their pasts as a story is not much of a deterrent to new readers.

But in this first issue that is supposed to establish the characters Jason and Roy both have their personalities established right off the bat, where as if the theory holds true everything we see about Kori here is a lie and the new readers don't have anything to judge this on and it will seem like an ass pull. A character's personality being changed should not be the first plot point in something that is meant to be a jumping on story.

[whitesycamore]

Idk, I think 'almost total out-of-sight-out-of-mind syndrome' might strike new readers as peculiar enough to make them expect plot developments.

[shadowpsykie]

my thoughts exactly!

totally off topic, but when i see your name i think Whitey's Amore.... even though i know its White Sycamore :D my eyes are not as young as they used to be :D

[darkknightjrk]

I read it more as whitesy camore.

[nezchan]

Kind of a Bootsy Collins sorta riff? I can dig it.

[abriel]

On the one hand I am very sex-positive and I like seeing female characters basically own their bodies and own their sexualities and if she wants to sleep around, good on her. She was the one who approached Harper, not the other way around.

On the other, it seems so...fanboy-servicy and crude.

I don't know how I should feel about this.

[whitesycamore]

Snap to all of that.

[shadowpsykie]

liek whitesycamore said, the art has a lot to do with it... as much as i like the art, the art is very cheesy cakey... like i said before, i feel like if roy and Jason were equally objectivied i would feel less awkward

[abriel]

Yeah, that's probably it. It does seem like Kory (can't bring myself to say Kori, sorry) is getting a lot more of the objectification than the guys are. I like seeing attractive women as much as the next chick but fair is fair.

[shadowpsykie]

whats wrong with Pinkie pie!

[abriel]

She's flailing with excitement at seeing the pretty ladies and wonders where the pretty guys are...? :)

[icon_uk]

That's more of a... convulsion than a flail...

[nezchan]

She looks a bit more subdued than usual.

[mrstatham]

The art is very much like Rocafort's (sp?) work on Madame Mirage, which he did a few years back; I don't know if working with Dini or the somewhat-more classy design for MM reigned him in a touch, although there was still a good amount of the Cake of Cheese in there...

[shadowpsykie]

i have no problem with seeing an attractive female form, but why not show an attractive male form to balance that?

its like my thoughts on Ed Benes' art. I LOVED his art. But the cheese cakey ness of it was really annoying sometimes... I think as a writer Gail Simone reigned him in a bit and balanced it a bit (i mean have you seen the men he draws? he draws PRETTY men:)

i like Rocafort's art conceptually, its the unbalanced-ness (god i am just using horrible grammar today) of the cheese cake and the over use of it

[mrstatham]

No, I absolutely understand what you mean, and equating Rocafort with Benes is pretty spot on, really. I mean, I've seen the stuff Benes has done for commissions and stuff outside his first BOP run, and it was basically cheesecake to the max with asses and boobs everywhere.

Rocafort's much the same, in his own way, and whilst we do have a shirtless Roy for the ladies, it's... Not quite the same, I imagine, especially when on the same page, we have that full-back shot of Kory in the water that may as well have an arrow pointing at saying 'LOOK AT THE BUTT!!!'.

[whitesycamore]

You are right, it's not at all the same.

Although I am sort of digging shirtless-Roy's tacky scorpion tattoos. Definitely hitting my kink for trashy guys, there, although I'm sure it wasn't intended to.

[darkknightjrk]

I guess it's a little fan-service-y, but I can't help but think, "Okay, so Starfire is this beautiful alien woman with a body that would make greek statues envious on a beach in a bikini...short of getting a terrible artist to do it, it's going to be super sexy no matter what art direction they take."

[filthysize]

This was my reaction. I like the decision to treat her sexuality this way, in fact I encourage any opportunity to push forward the idea that a healthy libido is not something hoarded by males, and that sleeping around is not necessarily a bad thing.

But there's something about the execution... Maybe if they're just casually hanging out instead of posing around half-naked on a tropical beach? I'm not sure...

[espanolbot]

Just remember this: Barry Allen wanted it this way.

[kenn_el]

I was way more interested in the Titans listed to 'jog' Kori's memory. (Yay Lilith!) Who is/was Dustin?

[pyrotwilight]

I'm blanking on that too.

Maybe that was the name of the random guy Kory fell in love with for like an issue of New Teen Titans who was a former member of HIVE and died?

[star_of_airdrie]

That was Franklin Crandall -

Dustin must be a retcon implant - or maybe Dustin Nguyen :-)

T-minus 6 days until New Teen Titans: Games is released (9/27/2011)

[gregor_asmadi]

NTT: Games was at our LCS this week. Reading that and RH&tO in the same day was rather jarring.

[star_of_airdrie]

I can't imagine the mind bending that would cause...

Games was at your LCS??? Oh man! Amazon has it coming in next week and I'm homebound at the moment so I didn't even try to get it. Thanks for letting me know.

[gregor_asmadi]

Hm, both of the stores I go to had several copies. Not sure why Amazon would be a week behind. *shrug* Oh well, only four days left to wait now. :-)

[star_of_airdrie]

Actually, I'm glad they are giving the LCS's the jump on the business - they did pay the majority of the bills - time to send my husband on a mission (like he'd mind, married me a fanboy I did, long before I read comics although now that he'd reading digital comics on the iPad, I doubt he'll buy much in print again).

BTW, and more importantly, HOW IS IT???

[gregor_asmadi]

I enjoyed it. I didn't read comics back when Wolfman and Perez were on New Teen Titans, but I have a few of the trades, and this felt just like those old stories. Considering how they had to rewrite the story while keeping the art done 20 years ago, I thought it worked really well. So yeah, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Plus, the art is so very, very pretty. :-)

[star_of_airdrie]

I didn't read comics back then either, but I've read the run. All I can get from the reviews is that once it's over, you'll be even more depressed about the DCnU

[gregor_asmadi]

Yeah, I'd agree with that statement.

[kenn_el]

I think you're thinking of Franklin Crandall, from TT #17. But Roy wouldn't know him in any case.

[daggerpen]

... um. Wow. What?

I'm with the others holding out hope that this was intended to read as "off" and will be a plot point later, if only because the alternative is just awful.

[thefiretonight]

I haven't read the book yet but I wouldn't be surprised if Kory's 'offness' is a bigger part of the confronting their pasts storyline that seems to be the first arc. Just sayin'.

[pyrotwilight]

Hmm. Seems DC's trying their hardest to make alien's more alien as a whole.

The Super family's physiology seems very different.

And here we have Starfire acting in a way that is radically different than her prior self to sort of show a detachment from humanity as a whole? Kori's view of sexuality isn't odd in itself but it IS pretty weird given the whole New Teen Titans days still seem to be in continuity (short of Roy having had a kid apparently) unless as folks have mentioned above Kori might just be faking her attitude to get over breaking up with Dick.

And it's even more odd to think of how she'd be a member of the Titans if she can't member things or doesn't care to. :/

[darkknightjrk]

I also saw someone mention that since it seems like Hood is going to be investigating some weird thing that cuts out organs without any marks while keeping them alive, maybe they cut out part of Starfire's brain? Like, the one that keeps long-term memories?

I mean, that would make for a hell of a title to entice someone in. "They Stole Starfire's Brain!"

[r0b666]

I bought this out of curiosity andI don't think I'll be making a return trip for issue 2. The Titans fan in me hopes Kory(i) is putting on with her memory lapses. If not then... just ugh. The fan service is just TOO blatant.

I suppose it will be easy enough for another writer to explain this away somehow or just ignore it, but still...UGH.

[pyrotwilight]

Let's see. How can we make this somewhat better and retcon this retcon stuff?

Ooh. She's pregnant with Mar'i and Tamaraneans brains shutdown partially during pregnanacy thus she has amnesia. ....i dunno.

[star_of_airdrie]

Well, she was at Ryan Choi's funeral at the end of the Titans run and so was Dick, so... WORKS FOR ME!!!

[pyrotwilight]

And an odder additional thought to my odd thought but...

maybe Lian will now be half Tamaranean too...

Half sisters, yay!

[star_of_airdrie]

But if she's already pregnant... then again, if she's feline, she has a bicornate uterus and then Lian can be Mar'i's twin!

(Yes, folks that would be impossible - once pregnant, you can't conceive another pregnancy - but you can have litters with more than one sire and people do breed litters that way especially now that the market is soft and you don't want extra puppies or kitties...)

[darkblade]

Weird Alien Anatomy, that's all you need to say.

[star_of_airdrie]

I've had biology students argue points with me before... preventive posting... apologies to those I bore

[star_of_airdrie]

But, weird alien anatomy works too ;-)

[star_of_airdrie]

Tamaranean Baby Brain!

[stubbleupdate]

[glprime]

+1, Liked, etc.

(tho I will say, any cheesecake with Kori is aight by me, each "New 52" preview gives me info on whether or not to pay attention to a new title or not. This is a NOT).

[icon_uk]

NEVER liked that image, the hair gives the impression that her head is more oddly shaped than J'onn's natural form underneath (heading towards "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crysta Skull" alien heads).

And those legging/boots? At least the Perez design had flat soles and functioned as greaves.

[rdfox]

...oh. Oh X'Hal. Oh, X'HAL, no you didn't, DC.

I'm sorry, but I *love* Kory's character. I enjoyed her enough in the Titans cartoon that it got me to actually go find the Wolfman/Perez era "New Teen Titans" run to learn more about her, which is what got me started in the DCU. (Yes, the Timmverse helped, but it was Toon!Starfire that actually got me to get off my butt and start reading the original comics.) I loved what I saw so much that I've read *everything* with her in it that I've been able to get my hands on, even when it was something that's a genre I don't usually enjoy. (I'm not a big fan of "cosmic" hero books, but when Kory joined the REBELS, I started reading their book.) Hell, I loved the character and lore enough that I made my primary character on DCU Online be a Tamaranean girl (even though Barb's younger, gayer--literally--snarkier, and has a very different background), because I thought it would provide excellent opportunities for roleplaying amongst the players who know their DC lore.

This... OK, if I were to post what I *really* think of this, I'd almost certainly get in trouble with the mods, because it's got me hot enough about things that if you put a teakettle and steam turbine over me right now, you could probably power the entire Eastern Seaboard.

But the key points that I *can* post without getting into trouble are these:

1) KORY IS NOT AN IDIOT. She was rather naive about humans when she first came to Earth, true, but that's no different from, for example, someone who's lived her whole life in St. Louis suddenly being dropped into the middle of rural China. She was someplace new, where she didn't know the cultural rules, and as a result, she was something of a fish out of water. That doesn't make her STUPID.
2) KORY IS NOT A SLUT. And I hope using the term to refer to this mode isn't seen as slut-shaming; in my mind, there's a difference between a woman who is strongly sex-positive and sees a distinct separation between love and sex, and this sort of near-nymphomaniacal have-sex-with-everyone-you-meet-because-you-can sort of sluttiness that is more porn movie character than anything else. No, Kory doesn't equate sex with love; she's able to love without having sex, and enjoy sex without love being involved. But she's NOT the sort of person who just fucks anything on two legs because it might be fun. Hell, Marv Wolfman put it quite simply back in the early 80s: "She thoroughly enjoys sex and isn't ashamed that she does, but she doesn't jump into bed with just anybody."
3) KORY STAYS ON EARTH BECAUSE EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING SHE CARES ABOUT IS HERE. The only member of her family still alive is Komand'r, who she doesn't dare attempt to reconcile with, and with the destruction of the original Tamaran (which is apparently still in continuity), any places she has a sentimental or nostalgic "I miss my home" feel for are gone, too. If she didn't care about people and things here on Earth, she'd have gone to Rann, or Thanagar, or Okaara, or any one of the other worlds in the DCU where she could have found people she might (if we accept that idiotic "don't see humans as people" thing) actually see as people and be able to remember. The ONLY reason she left Earth and joined the REBELS was because her most recent breakup with Dick combined with seeing him wearing Batman's costume and becoming more dark as a result were too painful for her to be able to stay on Earth, where she might see or hear about him on occasion.

In short: KORY IS NOT A BRAINLESS FUCKTOY WITH NO EMPATHY OR ABILITY TO RELATE TO HUMANS. WHATEVER THIS REALDOLL YOU'VE SPRAY-PAINTED ORANGE IS, IT IS NOT STARFIRE!

Scott Lobdell, Dankor, Jim Lee, Bob Harras, and everyone else in editorial who approved this huge steaming pile of shit? I have just one thing to say to you:

[whitesycamore]

2) KORY IS NOT A SLUT. And I hope using the term to refer to this mode isn't seen as slut-shaming; in my mind, there's a difference between a woman who is strongly sex-positive and sees a distinct separation between love and sex, and this sort of near-nymphomaniacal have-sex-with-everyone-you-meet-because-you-can sort of sluttiness that is more porn movie character than anything else. No, Kory doesn't equate sex with love; she's able to love without having sex, and enjoy sex without love being involved. But she's NOT the sort of person who just fucks anything on two legs because it might be fun. Hell, Marv Wolfman put it quite simply back in the early 80s: "She thoroughly enjoys sex and isn't ashamed that she does, but she doesn't jump into bed with just anybody."

Yes, that is slut shaming. There is not a threshhold of sluttiness that a woman can pass, at which point it's OK to turn into a raving misogynist.

And having sex with two men hardly means she'll sleep with "anything with two legs," not that it would matter if she did. If a male character had sex with two female heroines that are canonically highly attractive - even if he didn't love them - I doubt you'd start talking about his total lack of standards.

[mrstatham]

I don't know, there was a less than pleasant response to that scene with Hal crowing about sleeping with Huntress and Lady Blackhawk to the guy married to a member of the same team the women were on.

Of course, if I were writing that scene, Hal'd get a boxing-glove arrow to the mouth and a 'you're damn lucky I'm not talking to the wife that much these days, Jordan,' from Ollie.

[rdfox]

First, note what I said. It's not a threshhold level; it's the difference between casual friends-with-benefits/occasional random hookup sex, and near-compulsive "I can, so therefore I must" sex. The difference between a healthy, if large, sexual appetite, and sex addiction, if you will. The way it's depicted here, they have Starfire not even seeing humans as people, right? And yet, she's just hopping into bed with two of them when she can't even remember which one is which. *ALL* she cares about, the way it's shown, is whether they'll get her off, which is the point when, in my mind, at least, it ceases to be sexual liberation and freedom, and becomes compulsive rutting that's a sign of a serious emotional problem. In short, it's not about the *amount* of sex; it's about how Lobdell is depicting her as just latching onto any available cock for a good fucking, because *that's all that Roy and Jason are to her*, in this depiction. Not only does it basically make her into a sexual predator (come on, tell me that people wouldn't be calling for someone's head if a male character were having sex with highly attractive female heroines when he can't even remember her names, because all he sees them as is a pair of tits), it completely violates every core tenet of Kory's past characterization that she'd do this, hence my Wolfman quote.

And if that male character were depicted as not seeing women as people, just "sights and smells" that he could get his rocks off on, and was sleeping his way through the book to satisfy his urges when he can't even remember which one is Jane and which one is Rhonda, when in the past he was depicted as sex-positive and interested in friends-with-benefits relationships with women he cared about as friends? Yeah, then I'd start complaining, too.

I don't know. Maybe being a bisexual white male disqualifies me from having an opinion, maybe it's just that I'm not good at explaining my way of thinking, particularly when something has me enraged like this does, but I'm starting to wonder if it's even worth commenting on things that infuriate me any more.

[whitesycamore]

First, note what I said. It's not a threshhold level; it's the difference between casual friends-with-benefits/occasional random hookup sex, and near-compulsive "I can, so therefore I must" sex. The difference between a healthy, if large, sexual appetite, and sex addiction, if you will.

I did note what you said, I just disagreed with it. I still do.

And fyi, sex addiction does not make someone a slut either.

[tauruschick12]

Nymphomania doesn't make you a 'slut'. Nymphomania is a disease.

Also, how is sleeping with two men 'near-compulsive "I can, so therefore I must" sex'? Even if she did, what the fuck is wrong with that? NOTHING. As long as both parties consensual adults, it's cool.

Also, no one is a slut. Slut is a deragatory word people use on women (or men, although it doesn't have the same connotations) as a gendered slur. You can't 'be' a slut, you can only be called it. Why? Because it's not like being called 'evil' because people can actually 'cross the line' to become evil, like drowning puppies and setting kittens on fire. Women who have had sex and women who have never have sex are called it, making it not a word to describe a person's personality, but a slur.

[whitesycamore]

ok, 1. I'm not sure why you assume this is "near-compulsive "I can, so therefore I must" sex." I'm guessing that judgement is based on the number of men (still only 2!) and the fact that she slept with them in quick succession (maybe. It's not clear how long ago she was 'with' Jason). That doesn't mean she's sleeping with everyone, just that she happens to find these two attractive, they're clearly up for it, why not?

And 2: "And if that male character were depicted as not seeing women as people, just "sights and smells" that he could get his rocks off on, and was sleeping his way through the book to satisfy his urges when he can't even remember which one is Jane and which one is Rhonda, when in the past he was depicted as sex-positive and interested in friends-with-benefits relationships with women he cared about as friends? Yeah, then I'd start complaining, too." - it's not quite as simple as that. Kory doesn't have difficulty telling them apart because she just doesn't give a fuck about them, it's because her mind literally isn't equipped to do so unless they're both right in front of her. However, she did say elsewhere in the book that she likes them and they maker her laugh, which suggests that their personalities are important to her. So on what basis can you argue that this is NOT a fwb relationship with two men she cares about as friends, as much as she has the capacity to given her perceptual drawbacks?

[rdfox]

First off, I want to apologize to people for my posts last night; I was well into Red Lantern territory on the anger level with this, and given that I'm not the best communicator normally, I'm not surprised that I managed to come off as if I was saying that women shouldn't be able to decide how much sex they want and who they want it from. My anger wasn't with the thought of casual sex; it was with the complete and utter disregard for ANYTHING that Starfire has ever displayed in terms of sexuality. (Hell, other than Dick and her two politically-arranged husbands, I think the only person we'd ever heard of her canonically sleeping with before this was whatsisname in REBELS, and that came off, in my mind, as being a case of wanting friends-with-benefits because she's hurting too much to even consider a romantic relationship right then.)

I'm not gonna go off on the sort of rant I could, because I literally couldn't sleep last night because this had me so pissed off and I don't want to get worked up again about it, and besides, I would definitely be getting in trouble with the mods (again) for commenting on whether "fratboy fantasy" is a term that should be used here...

Instead, just two things. First, a friend of mine told me (and sadly, I don't have any more detail on this, though it seems to jibe with the stuff from CBR and may, in fact, be a corruption of the quotes there) that when it was being discussed on /co/, someone pointed out that Lobdell didn't want Starfire in the book, editorial forced her on him, and his completely gutting the last 30 years of character development to turn her into a walking Penthouse Forum letter ("Dear Penthouse Forum, I never thought something like this could happen to me, but...") was his way of getting revenge on editorial for making him use her. Again, I don't have any verification of this, but if it's true... well, if it's true, I stand by my initial comment to him, because that's just plain wrong.

The second one is simpler, and may help explain my reaction. Let's say the situation's different, and instead of [i]Red Hood and the Outlaws[/i], we got [i]Green Lantern and the Outlaws[/i]. And as part of the reboot, it's now made clear that due to something weird with Hal Jordan's ring, he can't tell humans apart any more, just seeing them as "sights and smells" and nothing more. And then one of his two teammates, Lady Blackhawk, tells the other that she's slept with Hal, shortly before Hal propositions--and has it accepted by--his other teammate, Huntress. Same amount of characterization shown, same level of gratuitous sexualization of Hal's art relative to Zinda and Helena's, just making the change to a DC male who's had more than a few liasons in the past, and two canonically attractive women?

Under those circumstances, would people around here be defending it as a depiction of "a sex-positive male who retains his sexual agency," and an FWB relationship with two women he cares about as friends, as much as he can given his perceptual drawbacks? Or would it be treated as something horrible, because clearly Hal is just using the girls to get his rocks off and therefore it's blatant misogyny?

[salinea]

would people around here be defending it as a depiction of "a sex-positive male who retains his sexual agency,"
I don't see many people on this post defending this comic book issue. What I did see is different people framing their issues with the story in different ways.

[whitesycamore]

Under those circumstances, would people around here be defending it as a depiction of "a sex-positive male who retains his sexual agency," and an FWB relationship with two women he cares about as friends, as much as he can given his perceptual drawbacks? Or would it be treated as something horrible, because clearly Hal is just using the girls to get his rocks off and therefore it's blatant misogyny?

I don't know if you've paid much attention to my stance on sexuality in the past, but I'm pretty much the last person to complain that women who have sex are automatically being *used.*

And if the male character was depicted as a smouldering, fanservice-y sex bomb, and the two girls as eager, salivating chumps? Well, it might be tacky but at least it would be original.

But what do I know - I mean, I have sex compulsively sometimes. Maybe I'm not emotionally healthy enough to judge.

Mod Note

[salinea]

Please don't use "slut" as a pejorative, because that's essentially a slut shamming term, like, tautologically.

And please, don't attack comic book authors. Attack and criticise their work all you want, but it is not acceptable to say "Fuck you" to any of the DC staff.

Mod Warning

[salinea]

After discussion the mod team has decided to issue you an OFFICIAL WARNING for slut shaming in this comment. We think that by now you should know this sort of comments aren't acceptable in scans_daily. Please note that if you receive two further warnings you will lose the ability to post on this community.

[filthysize]

I do like one thing: kudos for not drawing out the sexual tension unnecessarily. It nips that whole thing in the bud by having this in the first issue and basically tells the leery fanboys, "Yeah, yeah, we know what you're thinking. Here, look, they do fuck each other and they're pretty casual about it. Satisfied? Let's move on."

[darkblade]

So now we can drag out the tension between Roy and Jason for the rest of the series.

[joasakura]

I would be good if next issue has Roy and Jason in bed, and starfire casually walks past to grab something.

..real good.

[kusonaga]

Besides Kory's odd characterization, I'm also a little bothered by Roy here. Sleeping with your best friend's ex? Not the kind of bro I would want.

[jaybee3]

I made the same point above. Maybe Kory's memories are out of whack but it seems Roy is not and Lobdell has said their previous relationships with Dick is still canon. I can see pre-DCnU Roy sleeping with Huntress knowing Dick had been with her first but not Kory. Kory was someone special to Dick (they were almost married!) and yet here we have Roy not hesitant about having sex with her. Jason meanwhile is Dick's adopted brother (and while Winick played with Talia/Jason in Lost Days even he said in interviews it was not to be viewed as a "good thing" for either of them). I think the men come out worst in this scenario - especially if there is something wrong with Kory's memory.

[mrstatham]

This is the problem with the screwy reboot DC's performed. We don't know what's still in place and what isn't, and whilst that doesn't matter to the new readers coming in, it does raise more questions than necessary when it comes to matters like these, and despite the repeated advice from some to just go with it, it's kinda difficult to.

So on the one hand, everything with Jason is still in place, one presumes, so that makes it okay for him to be a prick to Dick (oh, the rhyming), but Roy's much more uncertain, and so is Kory. For all we know, DC could just be saying she's like this full-stop and always was.

[jaybee3]

I've said before that DC should have just rebooted the whole thing from scratch - none of this Batman/GL have little changes but Superman/Flash/Everyone Else has severe changes.

If you think about the scene with Kory/Roy/Jason above is only a problem (except to a noisy few) if the Dick Grayson factor (and all 3's relationship with him) is taken into account. Lobdell has said that Dick/Kory is still canon, Roy/Dick's friendship is still canon, Jason/Dick's whatever sibling issues are still canon. But I cannot believe that and still believe that Kory would casually have sex with the bitter brother of the "love of her life" or that Roy would unhesitatingly oblige Kory with sex with Dick still in the background. Pre-DCnU Roy wouldn't even have done that and the fact he would sleep with practically anything was a running joke in the last continuity. Now if Dick/Kory's relationship on the other hand still existed in the post-Flashpoint world but wasn't anything apparently memorable then what was the point of keeping it!

They should have just rebooted the whole thing, no past histories, nada so we would have understood that the past Kory is not this Kory, the past Roy is not this Roy and so forth. But DC wants to have it both ways and its just made things even more confusing for the reader. And people thought continuity was screwed up and hard to understand before.

[mrstatham]

I absolutely agree. It'd stop people frothing at the mouth over the presence/lack of presence of characters like Cass, Steph and the variety of others we've seen benched, because everything would just be started from day one, and that's it.

But their approach is horribly, horribly screwy. I've seen people not understanding in the slightest how Justice League can feature Hal as a GL whilst the GL book has Sinestro with the ring and Hal as a depowered loser, for instance - they don't get the time gap and what not. The same goes for Morrison's Action Comics, which seems to be confusing people as to why he's not in the same gear as Superman or JL.

It's a mess, and it's all because the inmates are running the asylum, frankly. johns wants to have his cake, eat it, and have another portion.

[big_daddy_d]

I read the book and in Roy's defense, it seems like he never met Starfire before either. So I'm not entirely sure just how much the previous Titans' history is intact.

[sistermagpie]

Jason and Roy are talking to each other about Dick and the "gang" Kory used to hang with. Roy's listing the Titans and asking if she really doesn't know them. (To which she responds with the cliche that he's boring her because she'd rather have sex.)

So even here it seems they're establishing that Kory was in the Titans and had that history, only her new alien brain can't keep those kinds of details in her head so she's forgotten them. Jason and Roy are psyched about the advantages of this.

[big_daddy_d]

Yea, I had to do a double take and reread the book. Honestly, there's a high level of uneasiness that comes off when reading. Honestly I'm not surprised at Roy and Kory sleeping together, but honestly..I'd like a why. Just..why would they go there? Again, Roy comes off more boy like but as I said above, Jason is the one who really comes off skeevy and puffing his chest as if he's the shit for what he's done. That is another thing that threw me off.

[mrstatham]

Never mind the fact that Roy should be/is/was friends with Kory himself, as per one or two versions of the Titans and Outsiders?

Funnily enough, I'm more bothered by the fan reaction of 'WHAT WILL DICK THINK??!?!' than anything on these pages. Not directed at you, of course, but that's one of the things being raised over at CBR, as if Kory's a piece of Dick's property.

[kusonaga]

True, but I don't necessarily have a problem with friends starting a sexual relationship. Thing is, I could just as easily say: Kory sleeping with Roy - Dick's best friend - is distasteful. not the kind of ex I would want. But Kory has plausible deniability here, Roy doesn't (in fact, it makes it even worse on Roy's account).

[mrstatham]

I'd buy more into said plausible deniability if it were actually suggested in the pages, whereas the apparent wonkiness with Kory's personality seems to just be something suggested here - Where the responses are a bit more levelheaded than those at CBR.

[whitesycamore]

What? But it says right there on the second page that she doesn't even remember anyone named Dick. It's in the text, not just a fan theory.

[mrstatham]

Doesn't necessarily mean she's being honest, to be fair. Just because she says no, doesn't mean she doesn't remember him.

The book's all over the place, to be fair. Roy should be kicking up more of a fuss about why she's saying she doesn't know said people he's asking about, and yet doesn't seem to know her much at all, when he should, really.

[whitesycamore]

It doesn't necessarily mean she's being honest, no, but it's going a bit far to suggest that her memory loss/personality change is just a fan theory when in fact it's explicitly present in the text.