haisai_andagii: (FF12, Fran)haisai_andagii ([personal profile] haisai_andagii) wrote in [community profile] scans_daily,
@ 2011-09-29 10:42 pm UTC
Entry tags:char: voodoo/priscilla kitaen, creator: ron marz, creator: sami basri, publisher: dc comics, title: voodoo, trigger warning: racism

A/N: Much love to Shea and Kamster for helping me put this together.  This post is really, really long and focuses largely on racial inequalities in the US.  This is in no-way directed to Scans_Daily or its philosophy.  I just need to get this off my chest.

 

If DC is an entertainment company, why am I not entertained?  Why is it that when I read their newest titles, I feel insulted, horrified and dehumanized?  I thought I was supposed to be entertained?  I thought I was supposed to be having fun?

DC's 2011 reboot has caused a great deal of controversy and pain for some of its readers.  It has generated a lot of dialogue, both good and bad, about the treatment of its characters and its customers.   I am sure we've all read Laura Hudson's article and Michelle Lee's article.  Well, you want to know what makes ME cry and fearful for the future of my children:





As a woman who lives in the cross-section of RACE and GENDER, this actually brought me to tears.  DC FINALLY, FINALLY has a Black Woman with her own on-going title and what is she presented as? A freaking monster.  

Damn it, DC.  It's like you didn't even try.

Please note that I have structured my criticism in response to the most common counter-criticisms I received when trying to address this issue...

1) "This is near to Voodoo's origin.  She's a stripper human-monster hybrid anyway."

To give you an idea of exactly why I am so upset about this comic and this argument, allow me to paint you a picture:

You have Voodoo on one side and Jason Blood on the other.  Most people look at Jason Blood and alter-ego, Etrigan, and see a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde dynamic.   Blood and Etrigan may reside in one body but they are not the same.  Jason's demon friend is not inherent.  He is from the bowels of Hell and only occupies Blood with his "permission.  If you are not familiar with Blood (though if you are reading this, I am pretty sure you are), the same can be said for the Hulk.  Bruce Banner only becomes the Hulk because of an accident.  While some of Banner's incarnations may have issues with underlining anger, he was usually presented mild, kind, gentle.  But nonetheless, The Hulk was a product of gamma-rays.  Banner, himself, was NEVER born a monster.

Now, you have Voodoo whose monstrous nature isn't something that is separate from her.  IT IS HER.  And, she has little to no control over it.  She becomes emotional and her nature can't be contained.  She will become a violent, raging monster and if you get too close, she'll kill you.

Even if pre-DCnU Priscilla is of Kherubim/Human/Daemonite ancestry, I still have to ask: "Why should I be any less upset?"  So, Kherubims are human-looking aliens that are intelligent, have super strength and whatever.  OK.  Great.  But Voodoo still has this "Daemonite" side she can barely control and violently wigs out on people.  There are no gamma rays, no magic potions, wicked spells, or lab accidents that manifested this "uncontrollable evil in Priscilla.  She was born with it.

"What this says is that Blackness/Brownness is polluted; it's contaminated by "darkness" or an "darkness" or an "evil. It's inherently devious, dangerous and should be avoided.  I cannot even begin to tell you some of the comments I have seen on image/message boards about how "this guy had it coming for messing with a [racial slur] woman." These people did not see Voodoo as being an evil alien/monster. They saw her as a BLACK WOMAN giving into her inherent nature as an evil alien/monster.  And they saw her murdering the agent as a consequence of engaging in interracial relations.

So clearly, this Jekyll/Hyde dynamic cannot work for People of Color the same way it does for Jason Blood or The Hulk. Why? Because this LONG, LONG narrative on the inherent monstrousness of Blackness/Black Bodies/Black Sexuality continues to live in every form of media from Shakespeare's treatment of Othello, to the Reconstructionist Senator's mulatto paramour in "Birth of A Nation, to the exploitation of Sarah Baartman in the streets of Paris,  to the "Fat, Sassy Black Lady TV trope (WATCH OUT! SHE'LL FALL IN LOVE WITH YOU!), to the fan vote crushing Savage Dragon and Rapture's chance at a loving, stable relationship.  Black Bodies and Black Love are seen as disgusting, deviant and dangerous.  They are alien; they are to be hated; they are a pollutant; the are sinful.  This narrative is pervasive, gross and ingrained in our minds, whether we like it or not.

The pattern of dehumanization of Women of Color doesn't stop at Voodoo: Pantha and Mari, aka Vixen, to a lesser extent, also have this problem. Pantha's power is obvious.  She's a cat-woman with cat-powers.  Mari channels the powers of animals and can even borrow the powers of others.

But these women, like Voodoo, are not in totally control of their bodies or their powers.  Pantha has been depicted as giving into her animal rage, which has lead her to die at least twice (Superboy Prime and a Boostle Story by Johns).  If Mari channels an aggressive animal or channels someone else's powers for too long, she'll go nuts.  Mari will bite you or spray ink in your face or kick-punch you like a kangaroo.  For goodness sake, Animal Man can tap into the power of ANY ANIMAL, ALIVE OR DEAD, ACROSS THE UNIVERSE.  At the least, if he spends too much time "bonding with any one animal, it hampers his ability to bond with another.  And at the worst, he just gets a re-enactment of Pet Cemetery.  But the point is that Buddy's family  do not have to fear him trying to rip their throats out.  And yikes, Mari and Buddy got their powers from the same source (Ananzi/Tantu).  It was like those aliens were being racists doling out powers too.

To some, there is no need for concern.  It seems rather innocent.  It's just the cost of being the user of mystic/alien power.  And there have been all-sorts of human-animal hybrid characters with short tempers, so what's the problem?  Pantha was "transformed by the Wildebeest Society, right (Actually, we never know if Pantha was born like that or if they mutated her.  Never resolved.)?  What these characters tell us is that Women of Color are still susceptible to their animal natures.  Black women cannot help but attack you, hurt you, kill you.  Like their dark skin, it's innate; it's their inherent destiny.  They can't help it.  They won't help it.


And DC continues to add to it with Voodoo.

2) "The bigger problem is that she's presented as a stripper."

Wrong.  

I agree that it is a problem, but both issues are different but EQUALLY offensive.  I refuse to play the "parade of suffering game.  Stop pitting prejudices against each other.  And stop pitting the people/groups that perpetuate these prejudices against each other.  Claiming that Black Men mistreat Black Women just as badly as others doesn't make the fact that Black Women are being mistreated badly any better.  It makes no sense.  

My main problems with Voodoo being a stripper is that it 1) lacks imagination and 2) presents her in a way that DC's main demographic group is not threatened.  In other words, this is an image of a Black Woman that would "appeal to them.  Amanda Waller, Onyx and Mari are threatening because they are a) strong, b) capable of fighting back, and c) not readily sexually accessible (Do not read this as "not sexual.  Amanda had children and a husband/Lex Luthor wanted her babies in that S/B movie.  Mari has had boyfriends and kissed Superman, who gossiped about it.).  

I have no problem with Black Women (or anyone) exercising their sexuality as long as they are the ones doing it.  But Voodoo's body and sex is for male consumption.  They can buy her.  She must do what they say (We all know about the unspoken arrangements made in those "private booths.).  The music plays and she dances.  She's on her hands and knees for you to mount.  I mean, the sexual/racial connotations of her pose alone are insane.  She is literally (and I regret saying this) a "Black bitch.

3) "J'onn often disguises himself as a Black Man and as a Woman!"

J'onn the Green Martian's default setting is J'onn the Green Martian.  He has many human skins that he likes to wear from time to time.   But for Voodoo (though the reboot version is up for debate), she was born as a PoC.  Trying to compare the two is ineffective.

But what bothers me is that J'onn never took off his clothes and shook it as hard as he could for dollars in order to "understand men."  He was never sexualized in the same ways and for the same duration as his female counterparts were when he did take female form.  J'onn traveled the world, using multiple guises to interact with the people around him in a number of ways.  He did not reduce his entire experience with men to the ones acting like sexually-charged animals inside and outside of the strip-club as in Voodoo.  So, why is it that Priscilla has to?  She can have a world of experience, but she chooses to be a stripper?  Go back and read Point #2, again.  Priscilla's "Blackness is presented in a way that would appeal to DC's main demographic: She is a sexually available and compliant Black Woman.  She is a "fantasy.  And if Priscilla really wanted to, I am sure experience the general "ugliness and "predatory nature of some men as a woman without having to be a sex worker.  This is just poor writing.

Another issue I have with aliens like J'onn parading around in Black and Brown skin is that deludes the deeper implications of institutionalized racism and allows their creators to "get off the hook about addressing such a serious issue in a lazy way.  Not getting it?  Then look at it this way:  Do you know why Lobdell turned Starfire into a "goldfish-brained, sex slave?"  Because she's not human.  No, I am not being facetious.  Starfire's "not of this world factor made it easier for Lobdell to characterize her as we see her now.  And it worked.  About half of the counter arguments/comments to the humanist/feminist critique on Starfire are: 1) she was always like this, 2) she is an alien and 3) because she is an alien, she has completely different ethics/standards/morals, therefore she can behave as he pleases. Go to any board that is currently talking about this topic.  Read those comments.  It's insanity.

And the exact same thing happened with Priscilla.  It's easy for her creators, (I am aware that Lee and Choi are her original creators and are both East-Asian/Korean-American.  But that they are not absolved.) to make her into another sexualized monster masquerading as a Black Woman because she's not like them.  Priscilla is not like the men and women that have shaped her at all.  Her Blackness makes her alien.  It's "foreign, "mysterious" and places her as far from Whiteness (or their own racial/ethnic groups) as possible.  This racial paradigm has a long and sordid history of how it has shaped the U.S's de jure and de facto attitudes towards Black and Brown bodies (If this is hard for you to understand, for whatever reason, and you really want to learn more, please read "Suspect Relations by Kirsten Fischer.  A great beginners book.).  

Even a beloved Character of Color like Cassie Cain isn't safe from this alienation.  When she was first introduced, Cassandra couldn't speak and couldn't read.  She suffered from severe dyslexia and emotional traumas.  We even learn that she's a child of rape (There is no fault with the child or its victimized mother.  It is the act of rape that is horrifying.  And remember, even though Shiva seemingly consented and was promised power, she was propositioned under the threat of death.  Literally, "have my baby or die.).  Not to mention that her mother was selected because she was an inherent "Dragon Lady.  Cain thought a child with Shiva would survive his crazy regiment.  So, then Cassie is born and has suffered unimaginable abuse from her own father, so she could be Ra's Al Ghul's ultimate bodyguard because of her breeding.

Wow.

From the start, Cassie was so terrifically "othered by her Browness, that she was literally a mute, chinadoll, bred-and-born dragon lady, punching-bag whose physical body and mental agency was and is largely shaped and controlled by white men.

And then when she finally gains control over her own mind and proves herself to be a capable leader/detective, what happened?  Drugged, turned into a villain, tried to assault Tim, cured but then exiled to Hong-Kong, comes back only to be partnered with Tim who largely treats her like a Kung-Fu accessory (and made a terribly off-colored joke comparing Cassandra to a condom) and, finally, rebooted.  Though some may argue that Beechen's work was just "one bad run, the point remains that DC allowed it to happen.  Beechen wrote this.  Editorial staff approved it. What this says to me is that DC was ok with this nonsense and DC continues to be ok with this nonsense.

Am I saying you must be a PoC to write about CoCs (or vise-versa)?  Absolutely not.  Ostrander made two wonderful characters - Waller and Oracle - that live on today.  And Dwayne McDuffie gave us Milestone and many contributions to DCU animation.  He created a number of characters that weren't African/Black American as well.  Making a character that people can resonate with and can challenge readers' comfort zones in a positive way takes times and much care.  And it takes a diverse staff.

What I am saying is stop tying gender and racial issues to this alienism.  And stop treating a diverse staff like its a hindrance.  It's hurtful, dismissive and lazy.  Racism, sexism and every other sort of prejudice out there are not issues particular to those effected.  They are human issues.  It effects us all, whether you want to believe it or not.

4) "But Pris turns into a white guy at the end!  It's not about race!/Race doesn't matter."

Yes, it does.  Like J'onn, the skin that Pris choose to wear carries connotations (for both the characters in the story and its readers) with it.  Plain and simple.  

5) "But the lesson is all the same, right?  Racism is bad, no matter who you are or what you look like!

Using aliens/demons/monsters that parade around as Characters of Color is a bad strategy because it alleviates DC chief demographic from doing any sort of "mental legwork.  Seeing J'onn fight off clansmen is awesome!  But then most readers put the book down and forget the real lesson, because, and I must be frank, DC's desired market (cisgender, Christian white men between the age of 18-34) rarely have to think about how their gender, sexuality, race, and ethnicity shape their thoughts, actions and words and how it impacts others.  Most readers will go: "It's terrible to treat Black people like that because they are Black.  J'onn showed me that when he had his run in with the Smallville KKK.  These KKK dudes are are bad.  Racism is bad."  Then, these sort of readers put the book down and still do not understand why (or care) racism and other prejudices are still "a problem.  They don't understand why Troy Davis was a hot-button issue or why there was another Affirmative Action Bake Sale.  This sort of approach to addressing racism is too elementary.

If DC is going to talk about social issues, then they must do better.  No excuses.  Racism isn't something that exists in individuals' hearts and minds; it isn't hating a person simply because they look different from you; it is not something that lives in a vacuum; it's not benign. And it most certainly cannot be understood in 20 pages of muscle-bound dudes and buxom ladies (including ads).

Racism is institutionalized.  It is a part of our culture, which shapes our attitudes and perception about the VALUE of ourselves and the VALUE of people around us.  We are bombarded by racist images everyday in advertisements, in the video games we play, in the television shows we watch, in the "private conversions" with our family and friends, in the off-handed comments from strangers, it's who your friends are and who you choose to associate with.  It's as small as being followed in a store or being asked to check your bag BEFORE you even enter.  It can be as big as being denied housing, jobs and health care.  Racism is a cause of poverty, a cause of a culture of fear, a cause violence, a cause of constant injustice and, worst of all, a cause of indifference.  Using Human Characters of Color to explore ideas of human prejudice makes the stories more relevant.  We don't have to have Superman standing on soapbox or Batman giving his rogues a 3-hour Ethnic Studies lecture.

DC characters, like any other character, are mouthpieces of their creative directors.  That's a fact.  Batman hates punk music because someone made him hate punk music.  Golden-aged Superman slapped a Fu-Manchu mustache on and hopped a fence into a Japanese-American concentration camp to search for "spies because someone made him do it.  Oh my goodness, let's not forget Tyroc - Murray Boltinoff's most racist legacy.  Whether you like it or not, the characters never truly stand on their own.  Even the most careful development can be undone by someone else's privileged nature (intentional or not.).

If Dan Didio ( and DC by extension) claim to hire and work with the "best, then their "best should be able to come up with interesting and innovative plot lines that entertain but, when they intend to, educate.  No harm can come from having diversity in their company.  Seriously.  It cannot hurt.  The comic industry is constantly on its deathbed, right?  I am assuming they want more money?  It's their job to hire the best and produce the best work, right?  They want to attract new readers too, right?  Part of getting those new readers is to show them that people like them are present in the company in meaningful and real ways and that they care about the product too.  Read "The Real Pepsi Challenge by Capparell, DC.  Just don't use any of its dated terminology.

6) "The story just got started!  They are using controversy to draw you in.  I'm sure they didn't mean it!  Ron Marz is amazing!

There is an adage about first impressions and there is another about intentions.  If DC was serious about pulling in a new market, then they would have written stories and used their characters to do so.

Playing the Devil's Advocate doesn't undo the harm already inflicted.  That's like Derailing for Dummies 101.  DC could have drawn in new readers with innovative plots and characters.  Instead, all I saw was the same racist, sexist, hateful nonsense that has been going on at DC since its inception.  Yelling, "SURPRISE! WE WERE JUST KIDDING! doesn't help.  It pisses people off.  It makes people shut their wallets.  And it makes people not want to pass your legacy onto their children.

I haven't read Witchblade and I hear nice thing about its author, Ron Marz.  I heard he took great pains to flesh out the titular character.  And Basri's artwork was very lovely as usual.  But, I am sad to say that I cannot be bothered to continue with this story.

7) "If not Voodoo, then who?  

DC has a "plethora" of Black/African Female protagonists/antagonists that all could have held (and deserved) their own title.  Let me just name a few that would be PERFECT:

Mari McCabe/Vixen: Mari, the ORIGINAL Animal Woman, gained her animal inspired powers from an ancient necklace handed down to her by Ananzi, the ORIGINAL Spiderman/African-trickster god.  It annoys me that Mari "retains" animalistic tendencies after using her powers for some time.  She should be able to do what Buddy does and vise-versa.  Also, it would make me ten times happier if we made Ananzi an Earthly being.  I am also really tired of this "Third-World Cultures Are Alien because that's just a reiteration of Point #3 and #4.  Get rid of all that foolishness and we're good.  And newer, potential readers may remember her from the JLU show.

Karen Beecher/Bubblebee: A highly intelligent S.T.A.R. Labs scientist and wife to Jericho.  We could have a crime-fighting husband/wife comic.  I choose Bubblebee because she's also still fresh in the minds of CN's Teen Titan show-generation.  Doesn't have to be the same characterization but it's a drawing-in point for new reader.  Karen is a scientist and an inventor with a brilliant mind I'd like to see put to solving crime.  She could even hang out with Steel and invent cool stuff.  

Amanda "the Wall" Waller:  Suicide Squad/Checkmate.  While her "make-over" upset many, you cannot deny that Waller is a dynamic, powerful African-American woman with fierce determination that has big name heroes like Batman, quaking in their boots.  Also, she was a great departure from the "mammy" Black Women of Size caricature.  Amanda answered to no one but herself.  If there was someone above her, she knew how to manipulate them.  She worked the system.  She upheld her own sense of justice.  She's may not have been a good-guy, but she a good character.

Nu'bia/Nubia: Seriously!  I'd read the heck out of a comic of Nu'bia and, let's say, Artemis traveling the world, trying to gather their Amazon sisters together and learn about the "World of Men."  And then Diana can show up and they can have cake and fight criminals together.  They could do a silly-buddy-Amazon theme.  ...But a small part of me wishes her name wasn't Nu'bia.

Onyx Adams: YES! YES! MANY TIMES, YES!  Onyx is amazing (Even though her name is Onyx.  DC, we know your characters are Black by looking at them.).  Not only is she an awesome assassin who can hold her own, she's a good friend and mentor to my other fav Batgirl: Cassie Cain.  For my sake, can we have an issue where Jason apologizes to her for stabbing her in the shoulder and using her as damsel-in-distress bait for Batman?  I love you Jaybird but that wasn't cool.

8) "Well, then don't read them if they offend you!  Don't buy them!

I'll read what I want and I'll be offended by it if I want to.  What you are asking me to do, when you use this criticism, is ignore, not only what is happening around me, but also ME.  You are asking me not to think about my life as a Woman of Color.  You're asking me not to question my existence and my place in they very world I live in.  Guess what?  Not happening.  I'm going to ask questions, I'm going to challenge you and your perceptions and I'm going to do it without apology.

But you know what I can do?  I don't have to give Detective Comics anymore of my money.  I'll just read trades from the library and borrow them from friends.  I'll sneak-peaks in my LCS when I go in there to buy OTHER COMICS.  I will read my friend's legal digital downloads and catch snippets from Tumblr and message boards.  I'll read plot summaries (which I do BEFORE selecting a "run to read.) on the millions of Wikias that are out there.  Let me just keep doing what I have always done AND not give DC any of my money.

And in my opinion, DC fandom is more often than not, better than what DC actually publishes.  What fans put out there is beautiful and amazing (but sometimes really scary).  I'd rather surf image boards, Tumblrs, fanfiction archives, LJ communities, Deviant Art/Pixiv, etc.  What the hell am I putting money in their pockets, when The Black Cat does it better (and for free.).

9) "Well, all of your ‘bitching' is giving them free publicity!  You're making them a success!

My main concern was voicing my displeasure.  What other people do with their money is rarely my business.   Maybe sales for the first month are good but let's see how next six month's sales go.  People paying attention to you is one thing, but buying your "faulty product is another.  And even if they are: meh.  I will use all of extra income on ASOS sales, art supplies, partying and travel.



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bestiasono: Science Icon (Science, XKCD)


[personal profile] bestiasono
2011-10-01 03:54 am UTC (link)
I have no idea why being aware of race would lead to casting white actors in everything. What are you talking about?

I am, however, aware of the fact (having been in the industry for 10+ years now) that most writers are writing parts with the idea that they're caucasian. It's the simple fact on the ground (would be nice if it wasn't). And if you reject race blind casting (which is to say, casting an actor/actress who can play the part regardless of race) and instead cast caucasians even when there's no real need for them to be, well, everything gets white washed doesn't it? Because caucasians really are the default in the acting and writing world. Me, I'd like that changed. I like it when you throw Will Smith into I Am Legend (originally written for a caucasian actor) because he can sell it and his race didn't matter. I like it when his son took over the roll in Karate Kid despite it originally being a caucasian actor, because again race didn't matter. THAT is colorblind casting. As opposed to intentional whitewashing... see The Last Airbender and 21 for examples.

Colorblind writing is when nobody in the script even acknowledges the race of the people involved. In some cases, this can be accidentally racist... for example the violent characters all being non white while the "nice" ones are white. Usually this has some inherent racism that the casting folks didn't recognize in themselves, sometimes it's more obvious. Some cases, it can be a major blow against racism and prejudice... Uhura or Chekov are good examples. Ivanova in Babylon 5. If it hadn't been retconned, Nightcrawler being the son of Destiny and Mistique might have been an interesting case as well. And so on. It's a tool that, with intelligent (color sensitive, if you will) casting can result in major positive steps and the creation of role models.

Now, the writer, in the case of comic books, is also the casting director (unless the artist is). A writer can write colorblind while casting color observant (not the best term, I have no better) and do some very good work. Obviously, the case of this particular comic is not a case of doing that, is it?

Do you see the difference between writing color blind, casting color blind, and ignoring racism in society?

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sadoeuphemist: (pic#5615798)


[personal profile] sadoeuphemist
2011-10-01 04:16 am UTC (link)
You are using a different definition of colorblind than I am. A colorblind person literally cannot distinguish between colors. A colorblind writer would say that a white person is interchangeable with a black person or an Asian person or whatever. A colorblind person would see no need to specifically seek out PoCs as actors and actresses, they would just revert to white as a default because it is easier. If you hold open castings and cast whoever regardless of race, you are more likely to get a bunch of Caucasians, because most of the major movie stars are white and Hollywood is used to casting white people.

Actually seeking out different races and moving past the default white dude involves saying, race is important, the fact that Hollywood is overwhelmed by white dudes is a bad thing, it is important to get more people of color represented in our films. It takes an actual effort to get Uhura on Star Trek, it takes a desire to actually say and do something about racism, instead of randomly casting whoever.

I mean literally, how can someone be colorblind and color sensitive at the same time, those are polar opposites, that's dumb.

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bestiasono: Science Icon (Science, XKCD)


[personal profile] bestiasono
2011-10-01 04:26 am UTC (link)
If someone is truly color blind, they shouldn't be defaulting to white. But generally speaking, if you're not prioritizing any color, you should get a random sampling. In comics (where there are no actors, so the whole majority white actors thing doesn't apply) we'd expect to see characters from all over the place with all sorts of ethnicities. Someone who says they're colorblind and then defaults to white obviously isn't, not really.

And when there are actors involved, then you've got colorblind writing but color sensitive casting, because that's two completely different people (or groups of people). Star trek was an example of that exact thing. The writing ignored (except in pointed examples) the ethnicities of the characters, but the casting was done intentionally.

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sadoeuphemist: (pic#5615798)


[personal profile] sadoeuphemist
2011-10-01 04:39 am UTC (link)
That's the thing, there is no such thing as truly colorblind! That's why people who say 'yo I'm colorblind' are dumb as heck and unconsciously promoting racism!

Saying that you're completely free of prejudices is the dumbest way in the world to fight prejudice, everyone has their own biases against whatever. What you should do is examine yourself for unconscious prejudice, study the structures of injustice present in your society, and then compensate for that. This doesn't involve saying, 'yo I just pick characters' races randomly,' it involves saying, 'hey I notice there are way too many white guys as defaults, so I am consciously making an effort to put more minorities in there.' And that's not race blind at all, it's being very conscious of race and thinking that it's an important thing to consider!

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marco: (sanetoshi+hon)


[personal profile] marco
2011-10-01 04:42 am UTC (link)
Being colorblind doesn't mean that you can't default to white... You would think so, but as it is, it's entirely possible and probable. I think this is because that person will still seek to go for 'the default', even if unconsciously. But if someone is being conscious of race, they're really trying to consider the characters and narrative and be smart about how to use the characters, tropes and implications that may come up. (Or, well, the alternative is being a racist and being a jerk about the characters and narrative.)

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salinea: (chagall)


[personal profile] salinea
2011-10-01 12:52 pm UTC (link)
If someone is truly color blind, they shouldn't be defaulting to white
BUT NOBODY IS TRULY COLOUR BLIND!

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bestiasono: Science Icon (Science, XKCD)


[personal profile] bestiasono
2011-10-01 07:14 pm UTC (link)
So your overall claim is "writing color blind is wrong, because you're not actually writing color blind." That... doesn't work at all.

I mean really, your whole argument has been against people who claim color blindness in their writing, but who are actually just writing white characters everywhere. That's very clearly writing for a specific color. I'm saying writing color blind means you write characters where race is irrelevant. But if it's truly irrelevant, then the races of the characters themselves should be random, because you can't pick a race (you are, after all, writing blind to the race). You write the characters, and maybe it turns out two are black, one's Hispanic, two are Chinese, and three are of so many mixed races it's hard to say what they count as. And nobody in the story comments on this. That's writing color blind. Writing stories where everybody's white except the token minority requires very carefully picking your races... you CAN'T be race blind for that.

What's next, not being racist is wrong, because it means you're being racist? I mean, many people out there have claimed not to be racist but actually are. So is it wrong to not be racist, or a laudable goal?

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salinea: (chagall)


[personal profile] salinea
2011-10-01 07:27 pm UTC (link)
I'm sorry, I just can't parse your argument here.

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bestiasono: Science Icon (Science, XKCD)


[personal profile] bestiasono
2011-10-01 07:42 pm UTC (link)
Your claim was that it's wrong to be colorblind, because no one's really colorblind.

I'm asking if it's wrong to not be racist, because no one's really not racist.

I'm also saying that your definition of "color blind" is actually very much not. If one is truly colorblind, then you can't possibly default to white characters... you can't default to any race. Colorblind writing means the characters do not acknowledge in any way the races of anyone in the story, which means a complete lack of any and all stereotypes, racist behavior, etc. The president? Could be white, could be black, could be Asian, could be Hispanic, could be a mix of 10 different groups... nobody comments on it, and the writing doesn't assume anything. And then, and this is critical: the races really are just in there, somewhere. Maybe the love interest is hispanic. Maybe that store owner over there is black. Maybe the best friend who's kinda dump but really loyal is Native American. Maybe the competitor in the love triangle is Asian. Maybe the mysteriously wise father figure is mixed race. Maybe the love interest's gossipy friend is Caucasian. Whatever. Those races don't factor into the writing at all.

Writing that defaults to white is not colorblind writing. It's, well, stock standard whitewashed writing like we've seen in Hollywood for years. In your definition of colorblind writing, you can't use any race at all, because if you do you're seeing a race.

And notice that I was arguing for colorblind writing with color sensitive casting (in a comic medium, that requires writing without race in the story, but picking the races of the characters conscientiously... NOT just picking a bunch of Caucasians).

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salinea: (strength)


[personal profile] salinea
2011-10-01 07:57 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I think we've already established that we disagree more on terminology than we do on content.

I'm also saying that your definition of "color blind" is actually very much not. If one is truly colorblind, then you can't possibly default to white characters...
Yes, I also agree with that. The problem is I do not believe that "true color blindness" is something that actually happens in this world. So your argument is fine in theory, but doesn't work in practice. At least, not in a simple, straight forward manner.

I'm asking if it's wrong to not be racist, because no one's really not racist.
Well, I'll certainly don't hold much water in someone who's making a point to say that they are "not a racist".
Which of course doesn't mean that I don't think it's a good thing to try not to be racist, to try to be an ally to People of Color; etc. But none of those things are stuff people just are by virtue of deciding it.

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sadoeuphemist: (pic#5615798)


[personal profile] sadoeuphemist
2011-10-02 02:10 am UTC (link)
Here's another thing you are ignoring: let's imagine you really are colorblind, that you are an alien or a person from a far-flung future or a robot. What you are failing to taking into account is that the rest of the world is racist. Say you roll your Random Race Generator and make your protagonist a Hispanic Chinese. Okay. Then your publisher says, 'Does this character really need to be Hispanic Chinese? I think a white guy would be more marketable and appeal to our central demographic.' Your casting agent says, 'There isn't a Hispanic Chinese actor with the star power we need for our movie, let's cast a white guy.' These are real, tangible, economically sound reasons for going with a white guy. So why wouldn't you change it if all races are equal?

You are suggesting that the solution to solving a problem is to willfully blind yourself and throw darts wildly and hope you get it right, with the chance of accidentally writing something offensive instead and making the problem worse! This is a terrible way to solve problems!

Also, writing a story where everyone is white does not require picking the races of your characters. It requires no thought or choice at all! People can write a story and make everyone white because they never consider making them another race to being with. That's what a "default" is!

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bestiasono: Science Icon (Science, XKCD)


[personal profile] bestiasono
2011-10-02 06:24 am UTC (link)
I keep saying colorblind writing with color conscious (or at least non whitewashed) casting. You keep bringing up the counterpoint "what if they whitewash everything during casting" or the comics equivalent. As examples of what I'm talking about as a tool to fight racism, I bring up Star Trek and ER, which show not whitewashing and actually throwing in various other ethnicities and such... you immediately assume I'm talking about whitewashing. Why is that?

It seems to me that you are inherently defaulting everything to white. Maybe you should stop doing that. Look at the examples I'm giving of how this tool to fight racism actually successfully works in the field (Babylon 5, ER, Star Trek, and so on). That's what I'm talking about. What you're talking about is something else entirely. Stop arguing with a strawman.

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sadoeuphemist: (pic#5615798)


[personal profile] sadoeuphemist
2011-10-02 07:49 am UTC (link)
Do you really believe that the writers of Star Trek just rolled a dice and randomly decided to make Chekov a Russian or wrote the Uhura-Kirk kiss with no clue it was going to be the first scripted interracial kiss on TV, because that's really really dumb. The problem we are having here is that your definition of colorblind writing is stupid:

"Colorblind writing means the characters do not acknowledge in any way the races of anyone in the story, which means a complete lack of any and all stereotypes, racist behavior, etc."

I can write a black character who embodies a thousand racist stereotypes, but no one in the story acknowledges him as black. That is still a racist character! Racial issues do not exist solely within the text, and a lot of the time when people judge a character as a racist stereotype it has nothing to do with the opinions of the characters in the story. It is because real people in real life have real experiences with racism, and recognize similar trends and patterns in the media they consume.

Trying to define social justice terms in-universe is pointless. You can have a progressive story where no one cares about race. You can have a story where every single character is an offensive racist stereotype, but none of them care about race. "Colorblind" only has any meaning when applied to the racial awareness of the writer themselves. And if a writer is colorblind, that is always a bad thing, because it means that writer is dumb and ignorant.

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bestiasono: Science Icon (Science, XKCD)


[personal profile] bestiasono
2011-10-02 08:09 am UTC (link)
...what part of colorblind writing, color conscious casting sounds like I thought Uhura and Chekov were random? I'm saying that two methods both work along with color blind writing: color conscious casting (make the president Latina, instead of the usual cisgendered straight white male), and random or best actor race casting (Will Smith in I am Legend). Look at the examples I'm using. Try to understand what I'm saying, instead of just preaching.

...if you write a black character who manages to embody a thousand racist stereotypes, they're you're writing all about his skin color (from a racist writing perspective), which is the opposite of colorblind writing, or at the very least isn't color conscious casting at all.

Stop arguing with the strawman. What I'm talking about is what was done on Star Trek, ER, and Babylon 5. What you're talking about is your own personal thing. I agree, it's stupid. But it has nothing to do with anything.

But if a writer didn't know any of the stereotypes that you're talking about, had no idea about a single one, he'd be color blind as you're saying it right? Clearly not racist as he evidently doesn't know a darn thing about race (he just knows one of his friends has much darker skin, another has much lighter skin, whatever else). This writer has friends of various races and just doesn't classify that way or think much of it. Heck, maybe nobody's told him the stereotypes and he's blind so he can't even tell skin color anyway. This theoretical non racist writer, who you think is dumb and ignorant, writes a script. What are the chances he'd write a black character full of the stereotypes you're talking about? What are the chances he'd decide all the characters had to be white? And why is he the target of your vitrol? Why is he so dumb?

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sadoeuphemist: (pic#5615798)


[personal profile] sadoeuphemist
2011-10-02 08:28 am UTC (link)
Hey, look, I did a word search and picked out every time you said "random":

"Well, what would you call taking characters where the ethnicity isn't really relevant to what they're doing (such as a doctor on a show like ER, or pretty much every sci fi role ever) and just having them be some random ethnicity instead of always defaulted to caucasian?"

"I'd say that every alt future or general future show that randomly had a black president or a female president or any such thing, for example, was helping."

"But generally speaking, if you're not prioritizing any color, you should get a random sampling."

"But if it's truly irrelevant, then the races of the characters themselves should be random, because you can't pick a race (you are, after all, writing blind to the race)."

You keep switching back and forth between definitions as it suits you. Does colorblind writing refer to:

1.) The mindset of the author as they are writing the story
2.) The degree to which race is mentioned in the story itself?

Because if it's the first, then Star Trek et al aren't colorblind writing. And if it's the second, then yes, you can have super-racist colorblind writing. Make up your mind!

And a writer who doesn't understand race is, is as dumb and ignorant as a writer who doesn't understand what religion is or what countries are. That's just what it means to be dumb and ignorant, it means you don't understand things.

And if this hypothetical writer consumes our racially slanted media and has mostly white friends due to say geographic location, then the chances are high that he'd make them all the characters white and maybe replicate some stereotypes there inadvertently.

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bestiasono: Science Icon (Science, XKCD)


[personal profile] bestiasono
2011-10-02 09:18 am UTC (link)
...I'm going to say this one last time:

There are two methods, both of which work alongside raceblind writing to work as a tool against racism: random (raceblind) casting, and race conscious casting (taking the writing, then assigning appropriate races).

Do you see that? How there's two techniques? Technique 1: I Am Legend. Will Smith's race was not a factor in his casting. It was originally going to go to a white actor (that movie took a LONG time to get made, it went through many possible stars). Technique 2: Star Trek. Uhura, Chekov, and Sulu were all placed because Gene Roddenberry felt that in the future an all white crew wouldn't fit. Okay, so see how I'm not saying Uhura was completely random, even though other than in the Abe Lincoln episode the writing in world race blind? But in the case of Will Smith, his race was effectively random? Got that?

Now, I want you to imagine this dumb, ignorant writer you hate so much is actually blind (hence not knowing anyone else's race). He's probably been told he's of some particular race but, not being terribly visual, doesn't consider it important and thus doesn't think about it (much like I can never remember anyone's eye color... I'm actually colorblind, which makes seeing most eye colors kinda hard). Maybe nobody's remembered to mention to him what race his friends are (it doesn't always come up, after all). And let's say he's in some reasonably enlightened area where he doesn't often hear stereotypes much. So, he doesn't consider race important to his life. Now, if he writes a story where race doesn't come up at all. He never mentions the races of his characters at all.

He's dumb and ignorant, right? Because his writing is race blind. And you're sure all his characters will be white, right?

Now imagine he's black. Same thing, right? He's going to make all his characters white, because that's just how it is. Maybe he moved to America from Egypt a few years back... still everybody's white and he's an ignorant fool for not knowing our particular stereotypes, which he'll automatically write into his work anyway even though he didn't even know his home country stereotypes. Because everybody defaults to white, no matter who they are or where they're from, if they're not considering race something relevant to their writing, and everyone who isn't writing about race right then or thinking about race as they write is always a dumb, ignorant person who's going to whitewash their works. Right? That's what you're saying?

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sadoeuphemist: (pic#5615798)


[personal profile] sadoeuphemist
2011-10-02 09:33 am UTC (link)
Your first example is still going to get more white people cast because there are more white celebrities who are bigger box office draws who have better connections. Your second example isn't colorblind writing at all! Chekov was deliberately written as a Russian, Uhura as black, etc. They didn't write a nationless Chekov character then only afterwards cast him as a guy who could do a swell Russian accent.

Your defense of colorblind writing consists of: let's hope we get lucky. It's a terrible, horrible, no-good, very bad solution.

And you're getting increasingly ridiculous with your hypothetical raceblind man. If he lives in a predominantly black community, his characters will probably be identifiable to readers as black, etc. But a perfectly raceblind person is just as capable of writing something terribly racist without intending to. That's the thing, you're just hoping he gets lucky in regards to where he was born and the racial attitudes around him and so on. Because he doesn't understand race, he can't think critically about it, he is dumb and ignorant and this is a bad thing for a writer to be!

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bestiasono: Science Icon (Science, XKCD)


[personal profile] bestiasono
2011-10-02 09:40 am UTC (link)
I'll be sure to let him know you think he's dumb and ignorant, by the way, for not writing about race and not caring about race. Oh, and his friends are of a number of races (more Caucasian than not, but many out there)... turns out not all black people live in black only communities. Shockingly.

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sadoeuphemist: (pic#5615798)


[personal profile] sadoeuphemist
2011-10-03 01:28 am UTC (link)
lol, and you are accusing me of strawmans

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bestiasono: Science Icon (Science, XKCD)


[personal profile] bestiasono
2011-10-03 02:31 am UTC (link)
You just spent this entire time saying anyone who was writing race blind was ignorant and dumb and would whitewash their stories. Well, I'm telling you about someone who doesn't even know the races of his friends and writes stories. Where's the strawman?

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sadoeuphemist: (pic#5615798)


[personal profile] sadoeuphemist
2011-10-03 06:15 am UTC (link)
Yes, this person who does not know the races of his friends is ignorant, that's what it means to be ignorant, it means you don't know things!

If most of his life experience is in a black community, consuming black-oriented media (regardless of his race), and he puts these experiences into his fiction, people are likely to get a sense that the characters he writes are black, even if the person himself has no clue.The same goes for any other race.

But in America at least, the majority of people are white, the overwhelming majority of media is white dominated, so what do you think is likely to happen?

Now if he was actually aware of race, he could compensate for this regardless of the circumstances of his surroundings, but alas, he is ignorant, and thus must be borne along helplessly on the tides of institutional racism.

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