Information about Starfire-gate

[shadowpsykie]

So a blogger had a conversation with Scott Lobdell a while back and they discussed Starfire-gate.

the blog post can be found here. http://thefiretonight.tumblr.com/post/11014351661/so-i-had-a-small-chat-with-scott-lobdell-tonight

"Kory was definitely being evasive/sarcastic because she did NOT want to talk about her past with them and issues that will come up later in the series. She does not have a memory of ‘a goldfish’ as some people have been saying ‘round the ‘net.

Also, Jason was lying to Roy about certain implications he made in the first issue to Roy about Kory. I won’t say what exactly because I don’t want to spoil the next issue, especially since it’s not out yet."

so it appears that some of our guesses were correct, Kory was being purposfully missleading, and Jason had been lying. Her memory issues are not issues at all, she does NOT want to talk about her past for some reason.

the post goes onto say that Lobdell seemed visibly upset about some of the posting coments people have been leaving on message boards (not the interviews or reviews themselves, but the comments people have left... and i think we can safely assume that the comments were the "starfire is a slut" and the like comments.

I know i a have been one to defend Lobdell during Starfire-gate, and it is because I KNOW he is a great writer, and a great writer of women. which is why the impressions we got from RHATO troubled me. Also as a dabbler in writing i know about playing "the long grift" card and the dangers there in.

hopfully this will comfort some of us who have been... worrying about this
title. The fact that Lobdell actually seems to care about this also helps...


I will be blogging about this more in depth later.

anyways, for legality, because he traveled with her....





One Page From Animal Man #2

Comments

[abriel]

I kinda figured there had to be more to it than what most people were reading into the whole thing.

[darkknightjrk]

I figured that was the case--especially when I saw some interviews of Lobdell saying that initially he had to figure out how to make Starfire work on the "team," and I don't think someone's finished result of that kind of thinking would be making her into a fembot.

She was established as a powerhouse, and then as a woman who flaunts her sexuality, polyamorous, is deflecting on her past. Whether this was a good way to introduce the character is all up to personal taste and interpretation, but I always assumed that there was more going on in her mind that we'd see as the story progresses.

[jlbarnett]

the part where she has difficulty telling Roy and Jason apart worked against any claim there was hidden depths, within the confines of this story, IMO.

[salinea]

Too bad she can't tell them apart.

[salinea]

in case I was too evasive:


She's even evasive and sarcastic in her own mind!!! or, you know, Lobdell is trying to cover up his fuck up.

[star_of_airdrie]

He had said in early interviews about RHatO that she was not going to revisit a relationship with an Earthling, given how it well it worked out with Dick (and to a lesser extent Franklin and perhaps Captain Comet) in the the past.

"I gave my heart to Dick Grayson, and it got stepped on and thrown on the pile with all the other hearts he destroyed'

[icon_uk]

Where did THAT quote come from, since given Dicks actually very conservative sex life, there really wouldn't be a large pile, and most of the ones I can think of seem to have ended fairly well.

[thefiretonight]

That blog post is mine. I talked to Lobdell on Monday night for a short bit. Like I said he was hosting a cosplay event.

I feel like I need to apologize because the first version of that post did use the phrase 'slut shaming' was used despite the fact that neither of us used in our conversation. Neither of us were accusing anyone of it but I couldn't think of a better way at the time to convey the really disgusting terms seen in comments on articles... I just really didn't and still don't want to repeat those words. I just needed to say that because I've seen people on tumblr take the first version the wrong way and say that Lobdell was accusing them of 'slut shaming' when that wasn't the case at all.

[thefiretonight]

Holy grammar, Batman. This is what I get for posting on my phone.

[crabby_lioness]

I'd feel sorry for Lobdell except for one little-bitty fact. He was warned this would happen in a meeting at DC.

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/09/22/behind-the-scenes-on-starfire-and-red-hood-and-the-outlaws-1/

“Yes, there were a lot of people there, it had become quite the conversation piece. There was a lot of discussion about Kory and her sexuality the day before this issue went to press.”

“There were a handful of staff, mostly other women, who believed the writer was trying to equate being a strong woman with being, frankly, a slut. No one said that the writer was misogynistic, just that perhaps he was writing from a male perspective. It was firmly suggested to him that he could accentuate the character’s past as a sex slave. And that this might be an explanation for her sexuality, that she was acting out in her new life.”

“However, we were told he was adamant that Kory not be portrayed as a victim. The argument was made that if she was acting out sexually because of her past it mind that she mentally never left the prison planet.”

“In the end a compromise was struck and the sentence “I am a woman” [originally placed at the top of the third panel above] was lost.”

Lobdell was warned what would happen. He chose to ignore the warning. On his head be it. He is in no position to cry, "Oh woe is me, I'm so misunderstood!" when people explained to him in detail exactly how that scene would be interpreted.

[salinea]

Note that the suggested "fix" would probably have made it even worse.

[icon_uk]

Sort of reassuring, but as noted by myself and others, the first issue of a relaunch is a spectacularly awful time to play the "she's acting out of character" card since this IS a reboot, how the hell are we supposed to tell what is just "New Starfire" and what is "She's putting on a show"?

I feel it akin to the infamous Torchwood "Date rape pheremone" sub plot in their first episode, where the writers seemed to genuinely not have considered that anyone might treat what they thought was a whimsical story about using an alien drug to unlock all sexual repression could be interpreted as removing and sexual volition from both males and females exposed to it.

[filthysize]

Re: Torchwood. Wow, was it supposed to be whimsical? Given that Russell T. Davies seems to like making heroes out of morally damaged people, I always figured the intention of that scene was to introduce Owen as a dick who would do something so icky. It established his later actions of having no remorse in getting Gwen to cheat on Rhys and yanking Tosh's chain around.

As for Starfire, my only disagreement would be that the timing is exactly why the "ruse" would work on the readers. If there's not a reboot behind it, everyone would immediately assume she's pretending or brainwashed so a potential "twist" would have no impact. I'm more baffled by why Lobdell decides to explain it off-page early to fans and be discouraged by people not figuring it out. Isn't that what he wanted when he set it up?

[pyrotwilight]

Yeah...it's kind of hard to believe he'd be surprised that folks would react negatively given how she's purportedly explained in the issue even if it's supposed to be a fakeout surprise for us later.

[thefiretonight]

He was more surprised about some of really demeaning language used to describe Kory in comments... I really don't want to repeat them because they were that offensive.

[leikomgwtfbbq]

I think Animal Man is my favorite DCnU comic by far.

There are other good ones, but Animal Man is the best, in my opinion.

[meowshi]

Agreed!

[tsunamiwombat]

Sorry, but all I hear is backpedaling.

[bmaryott]

Go-Go-Power-EmergencyRewrite of issue#2!

[valtyr]

Lobdell's never heard comic fans get slut-shamey, and he's surprised that they do? Where does he live? I want to live there too.

[shadowpsykie]

well... i don't know how much time he spends on boards.... i know some writers and artist who avoid it like the plauge, others that are just not that into searching the boars. Others embrace it, some just don't get around to it... he might be a newbie to it.

[kurenai-tenka.livejournal.com]

It doesn't quite hold up against a lot of the points people have made, but atleast it means there's a chance that he'll go back and fix some of the dialogue in the upcoming issues *sigh*

Who knows, it might even become readable. -.-

[whitesycamore]

So what was Jason lying about?

If it's important to the plot then I'm guessing that it's something to do with Kory's memory. And if she *is* faking it then she possibly asked him to lie to Roy about it order to keep up the façade. For some reason.

Man, this whole thing is gross and confusing.

[icon_uk]

The most obvious one would be that he lied when he said he'd had sex with Kory.

[magus_69]

I wasn't even going to look at the next issue, but I suppose I'll browse it in the shop. I have trouble believing that Lobdell couldn't predict the fallout, but it wouldn't be the first time that a writer tried to be clever and failed spectacularly.

[proteus_lives]

Starfire-gate.

Man, that phrasing will be alive for at least another thirty years.

[jlbarnett]

Also as a dabbler in writing i know about playing "the long grift" card and the dangers there in.

To many writers do this. THey need to forget trying to come up with way to keep people around besides good writing and remember a classic rule.

"You only get one chance to make a first impression"

[big_daddy_d]

Hmm...Ok. I'll allow it. I'll read the series for the foreseeable future just to see how much of what he said holds up. I often say how Roy is my favorite character and I hate how he's been ruined. Also I admitted that I'm not bothered that Starfire slept with him given the nature of the characters, my issue with it was..the why? Why would Starfire sleep with one of the best friends of her ex? And I know Roy isn't above sleeping with someone that his friends have been with but I thought Starfire would be a different story considering what she had with Dick was very serious and the two were in love. That wasn't explored and then the way Starfire was portrayed just didn't inspire confidence.

[shadowpsykie]

i think Lobdell took a chance... in this case. it didn't play out the way he wanted... but... i was giving him a chance before, knowing this i am giving him even more of one...

[jaybee3]

Lobdell being 'distressed" about the "slut-shaming" I don't doubt is real. There's been some of that going on.

BUT...

It is also a deflection on Lobdell's part I think. A lot of people (a LOT) both here at S_D, on Tumblr, over at CBR, over at virtually comic book site who would be the first to lambast such comments had SERIOUS problems with this book. There were numerous long threads and posts on the behavior and comments of Roy and Jason (Jason introducing Kori/Kory by telling Roy how he's "had her", Roy seeing there's something "off" possibly with her memory immediately going to have sex with her without hesitation) and how they seem like characters out of the Jersey Shore (maybe the book should be called "The Situation and the Outlaws"). There was discussion about the obvious almost Playboy-ish over-the-top fanservice art centered on Kory/Kori (including a rejected/changed art where a transparent bikini - as requested by Lobdell himself - was changed). There was the passages posted above from within the comic itself - which is supposed to be Starfire' POV - that she can't tell Jason and Roy apart (which has ZERO to do with her lying to Roy about remembering the Titans). There was Bleeding Cool's article that several female staffers within DC itself had problems with how Starfire was being handled and asked for a meeting with management about the day before the issue's release.

NONE of that has anything to do with the source of Lobdell's distress or with any future stories he has "set up". As I mentioned at the time maybe Kory/Kori have reasons for the way she is being written but what are Roy/Jason's excuses? Why would we want to read more about these two guys who act like fratboys and treat the Orange alien with the low attention span like some sort of trophy to brag about (and don't tell me Jason wasn't bragging in issue 1). How's Lobdell going to explain that away?

[dr_jekyl]

You're bang on, I think. It strikes me as very similar to the way DC decided to respond to the incident of the Upset 7-Year Old by pointing out that the comics have ratings rather than addressing, in any way, the point the mother was making, or any of the other underlying issues fueling the upset. If Lobdell is only focusing on the ones in the community who are, unfortunately, slut-shaming and calling characters nasty names, then he's missing the point entirely. And, perhaps, just as willfully as DC did.

It's still badly written...

[rattsu]

The problem is that no matter what he has planned in the future, the fact is that I really looked forward to this book, has no problem with the premise or the rating, but walked away so disgusted that I sat down and rewrote the entire first issue just to try to get the original out of my head.

In order to get us to read on, he actually has to make us care enough to read until the payoff.

Re: It's still badly written...

[crabby_lioness]

I know at least two people who have sworn off DC entirely over that one issue. That's a pretty powerful level of disgust.

Hey, credit where credit is due. Lobdell did manage to stir people's emotions up -- just not in the way he intended.

[bluestar86]

You know, giving your characters thought bubbles, so that we could get some insight on these things would have solved a lot of these problems, which is why I believe you are making this up to cover your own ass Lobdell.

[equinox216]

I can see some of it being a failure on the part of the art to communicate the author's intent for Kori's feelings. Both for statements and thoughts. It's kind of like needing a '/sarcasm' tag sometimes; you've got to really WORK at making certain kinds of tone come across, and in a visual medium you need the art to work WITH the dialogue, and work WELL.

If you read over Kori's lines in a lot of places and attribute a feel of "stupid humans!" to what she's saying, that interpretation can... kind of fly, some. It's a hell of a tailwind you have to grant it, sure, but if even just Kori's body language was more "mmhm, keep flapping your gums, pretty man, whatever" and less "I AM A WEAPONIZED T-N-A PLATFORM", you can take her dialogue (and internal monologue) in a somewhat more favorable light.

... however. HOWEVER.

Things like Jason and Roy's comments don't GET that generous a reading. They're not objectifying her 'kiddingly', they're not shown as being overexaggeratedly 'big dumb male', they're not drawn as goofy or silly or of being ridiculous. They're played seriously, maybe with a high degree of 'what dogs men are!', but still fairly seriously.

And things like that
Roy: "Do you have backup?"
Jason: "I have 38 of them."
Roy: ("Who do we know with a pair of 38s?")
exchange?

That shit's just execrable. It doesn't even make sense CONTEXTUALLY, because Jason didn't SAY 'pair of 38s'. Editorial should've picked that up for being nonsensical to START.

And unless someone wrote that in over Lobdell's steaming corpse, which doesn't seem to be the case? Then even under the most friendly interpretation he's nowhere squeaky clean of some really poor judgment in characterization/representation.

[shadowpsykie]

I thought the 38s were his hand guns.... Did I really miss that?