Trailer for The Avengers - first "real" one

[kirke_novak]

We still don't know who the enemy is (my money on Skrulls), I don't believe it's Loki
I already ship Natasha/Loki
Steve has a gun, all is right with the world
Don't like how they just attached Hulk at the end - is he in the film for just 3 seconds?

Comments

[khamelea]

So, given the choice between Wasp and Hawkeye, they pick Hawkeye?

FANTASTIC.

[mrstatham]

Hawkeye was already set up in Thor a little. And again, Wasp might be tied up in the stuff surrounding the Edgar Wright Antman movie that's still being produced.

I think she could be one of the trickier characters to do, anyway. Unless you go the Ultimate route and blandly make her a scientist, you have to explain what a non-genius socialite is doing with superpowers on a government payrolled superhero team.

[valtyr]

Well, they could have set up Wasp a little in Thor. Or Mockingbird. Hell, they could have made Agent Coulson Agent Carter from the start.

Unless you go the Ultimate route and blandly make her a scientist,

Right, is this the kind of bland like Tony and Bruce and Hank, or the kind of bland where they make Jan a scientist and then hardly ever show her doing science and her husband's the real genius scientist? (Not unlike Ultimate Sue Storm.)

I'm just saying, perhaps they could interestingly make her a scientist. Ult Jan is Asian, too, which would add some racial diversity.

[mrstatham]

Regarding Ultimate Wasp, I feel she's a very poor hodgepodge of desperately trying to do something new with her and then doing nothing with the setup except have it revealed that all Hank's work is based on her. Otherwise, she's a highly trained scientist who does nothing at all with her training except declare incest is nothing to be bothered about to Cap, once Loeb gets his hands on her.

So I'd say it's a mix of both kinds of bland. She's super intelligent in the field of everything as the plot demands, but doesn't get a chance to display it at all.

By the way, please don't take my words as me suggesting I dislike Jan - she's actually one of my favourites, too, and I'd much rather see her in the Avengers than the sociopath bombsquad guy from The Hurt Locker.

[valtyr]

I think she had good potential and was desperately underused. Where was the event where Sue and Jan teamed up to save the world with biochemistry?

But her blandness was due to poor writing and development, not poor concept. (She was so poorly developed she never even got a maiden name.) If they put Jan in badly written it doesn't matter if she's a fashion designer or a scientist.

[sir_mikael]

"[...]who does nothing at all with her training except declare incest is nothing to be bothered about to Cap[...]"

This makes me think of her character just going around and repeating that over and over again.
"Oh Cap, don't you just think Wanda and Pietro are the cutest?"
"So I was thinking about incest the other day..."
"That's her brother? Man, I hope she's hitting that."
Eventually Cap would be all "... Please stop talking to me, Jan."

[mrstatham]

It was pretty much the only significant thing I can remember her doing in the piss-poor Ultimates 3.

[drmcninja]

Bruce, Hank, sure. But if you're going to say Tony just doesn't do anything as an engineer or genius using both movies, I guess the part where he patches together a robot suit out of scrap metal in a cave, miniaturizing a near-infinite power source and putting it in his own chest, or rebuilding said suit with his AI butler inside and the most high tech ordinance he can imagine may be missable feats of engineering in the first movie.

And could Jan have been in the movie? Sure. But in what context would you have her set up in Thor considering where the story was going? And considering that she didn't even develop her powers on her own, it means you'd have to make Pym first. Either you smash them together in a rushed intro and plot in another movie first, do it in the avengers, or smack her backstory and powers into the beginning of the Avengers to explain to the audience. All of those either fail to the character justice or disrupt the flow of the movie. I would loved to have seen her, but it just wasn't feasible.

[valtyr]

Bruce, Hank, sure. But if you're going to say Tony just doesn't do anything...

My comment about their blandness was sarcasm, designed to highlight that being a scientist in no way has to be bland. :) The science sequences in the Iron Man movies were glorious, I entirely agree. (One day I'm going to write the AU where Tony is a biologist and they look him up with a box of DNA scraps to make chemical weapons and he recreates the super soldier serum and I forget how it goes after that.)

And could Jan have been in the movie? Sure. But in what context would you have her set up in Thor considering where the story was going? And considering that she didn't even develop her powers on her own, it means you'd have to make Pym first.

Well, if we went the Ults route I would have had her as a SHIELD scientist - perhaps specialising in xenobiology/cultural anthropology. You can't tell me SHIELD doesn't have a Preparing For Aliens Branch. (And that would be nice Skull set-up too.) When they first started to be suspicious about Jane's work and the possibility that something had come through, they would have her in examining the hammer, checking for any DNA samples (perhaps comparing them against any previous samples they may have) and examining the markings and stuff; perhaps she could provide similar exposition to that which Erik gives.

If we went the 616 route, I'd do something similar to Mrs Peel (from the BBC Avengers, heh.) An upper-class woman who was very intelligent and educated, successful in her chosen industry, who was recruited into espionage due to her connections and took to it like a duck to water.

As for her powers? They can come later. The 616-ish version, she can be a test subject for Pym particles (Pym can be her supporting character/tech guy, as in early Marvel Adventures: Avengers) due to being a superior black ops agent who'd be even more awesome with flight and shrinking. The Ults-ish route, possibly... hm... when the base is attacked and the Avengers are down at the hands of Villain Of The Week, she injects herself with Pym's experimental particles and grows to giant size and Saves The Day.

I mean that's just off the top of my head in ten minutes. I'm sure an actual screenwriter told "Here is money. Write this character into the film convincingly," would do a better job.

[drmcninja]

Okay, that makes more sense. Because Tony was freaking awesome as an engineer. Its what makes the movie so amazing! Or, one of the many things. You understand.

Yeah, I don't mean she wouldn't be a good character, I just mean that I really don't think there was a way for them to handle it well given time and stylistic choices. She could have been a Thor-movie scientist, sure, but she can't just be made into a great spec ops agent. We already have Natasha for that, and to have two of them would be redundant. She would need her powers to stand out and be a better part of the movie, which means she would need Pym particles, which means we would need Pym. But to squeeze it out and make Pym a secondary, when its his discovery changes the mythos too much than they've done in the past. Considering how the 616 and Ults seem to mix so much in the movies by character, but all the major history points seem to at least be touched on, I just dont see it working. ANy way that I look at it, there just wasn't enough time of space to fit her into this, not without planning it out much farther in advance.

[valtyr]

But to squeeze it out and make Pym a secondary, when its his discovery changes the mythos too much than they've done in the past.

No it doesn't. No more than leaving them out of the Avengers' creation entirely. (Apparently Tony now names the Avengers; Jan did it before.) And if the change means bringing a female character more into the spotlight, I think it's a great idea. The Avengers lineup is what, six white guys, two white women, and a black guy? Five white guys and one white woman if you focus on the core team. I don't think the team desperately needs another white dude. I'd say they have that niche well-occupied.

ANy way that I look at it, there just wasn't enough time of space to fit her into this, not without planning it out much farther in advance.

Uh I just explained two ways it could be done. You agreed she could have been the scientist character. And this: "but she can't just be made into a great spec ops agent. We already have Natasha for that, and to have two of them would be redundant." How does that not apply to Hawkeye? Why would Spec Ops Jan be redundant, but Spec Ops Hawkeye magically isn't?

[drmcninja]

In the long run, does it matter who named the Avengers? Not really. But Pym discovering the particles with his name on them and then becoming Ant Man is a major part of Jan's history as a character, in both the Ults and 616. If you want a movie jan that is true to character (either ultimate or 616) and does her justice you need to give them both time to get going. I would love to see a more diverse Avengers. I would love to see anybody of a different race or another woman on the team i keep saying I don't think she would be a bad character to have on the team. That isn't an issue. But how angry would you be if they quickly worked over her origin story in a few minutes and dropped her in the middle of the plot with no explanation? Not knowing you I can't say for sure, but I'd imagine you wouldn't be very happy.

She can be a scientist. She can be a special agent. But if you want to throw her on the Avengers she needs her powers. There is already a check box for talented non powered special agent with two X's. Hawkeye can work because even if his background is spec ops, the focus is on his archery. Its what makes him unique and makes him a different asset, while Natasha's is her stealth and covert operations experience. If you just want to say a depowered Jan could be made an Avenger just based off of her skill as an agent, it doesn't make her any different from Nat, and does her any justice either.

I feel the need to point out again that this isn't a race or sex issue. I'm not defending any kind of white male status quo. I think it would be wonderful if they could fit more diversity of any kind into the team. But the fact is, they didn't and they sure as hell couldn't even by the time they started making the Avengers.

[valtyr]

But Pym discovering the particles with his name on them and then becoming Ant Man is a major part of Jan's history as a character, in both the Ults and 616.

And there's zero reason we couldn't meet unpowered Jan first and have Pym turn up later.

But how angry would you be if they quickly worked over her origin story in a few minutes and dropped her in the middle of the plot with no explanation?

What, like they did with Hawkeye? or Natasha? Sure, I'd rather she headlined her own movie, but hey, I'll take her added in.

There is already a check box for talented non powered special agent with two X's.

Sorry, two X's? You're basically saying that the Avengers already have an unpowered female agent, and they can only have one?

I feel the need to point out again that this isn't a race or sex issue.

Unless you come up with a reaaaaal good alternate explanation of the two X's comment, I'm sorry, it is absolutely a gender issue. You said we couldn't have a female special agent because we've already got a female special agent. You must have some serious cognitive dissonance going on if you think that's got nothing to do with gender.

Even the actual Avengers movie is giving us another female unpowered SHIELD agent in the form of Maria Hill. Thank fuck you weren't casting that. "But we've already got a girl! Another one would be redundant!"

[mrstatham]

Except Ultimate Wasp was a mutant and Hank apparently based all of his work on the study of her powers, although they kept it secret. Of course, you can't do the mutant concept in that Marvel Movieverse since Fox owns the rights to X-Men...

And they were already going as Wasp and Giant Man in the Ultimates as the first arc began..

[valtyr]

ALSO, Giant Girl from MA is a perfectly valid superhero background. Wanted to help, was given tech by one of father's employees.

[mrstatham]

I still think that's one you'd struggle with in amongst the fairly realistic movie Avengers, given we already had that scene in IM2 with Fury telling Tony that they want Iron Man, but not him, given his lifestyle. I don't think 'just wanting to help' gets you on this team, although they seem perfectly happy to have Mr Rage, Mr Drinky, and Mr Timeslung Soldier on board..

*shrugs* again, I imagine Jan is just tied up in the Ant Man stuff. If we could get someone cool like Mary Winstead playing her and she eventually gets folded in to the Avengers, I think that would be cool.

[valtyr]

Yeah but... that was because of his lifestyle. Assuming Jan doesn't have a similar lifestyle, that wouldn't be an issue.

It would be nice. Mary Winstead very much looks the part.

[khamelea]

I think the presence or absence of a set up for characters in other, recent movies is kind of part of the process of picking which characters are going to be in this particular film.

Obviously, if you look at the structure of the team as they've set it up through a series of films, there doesn't seem to be a spot for Wasp.

But that's the choice I'm talking about. They could have set it up differently.

And even then, I could easily see opportunities to insert her in a SHIELD or sponsor role that doesn't require her to be in the field, and thus doesn't require her to display complicated superpowers.

[mrstatham]

I think if they'd gotten Antman out a lot quicker, any potential for Wasp to be in the Avengers would've been there, since I knew Edgar Wright was working on that film since before I knew he was working on Scott Pilgrim. But I don't quite know what happened there.

But I agree that there are easily ways she could fit onto this team. She could be a uniform/equipment designer for SHIELD who ends up using her own tech as the plot demands, she could be the suggested 'interesting' version of her Ultimates scientist incarnation. Or she could just be fairly removed from the comics and be something of a hardcore secret weapon for Fury who still maintains a cute attitude.

But why are we really surprised she's not there? Marvel has zero respect for her, even as the founding Avenger who came up with the name, in the books, and if Bendis has any influence over this movie - and he did for Iron Man, as did Millar (god knows why) - then he could've nudged them away from using her, since he has some obvious disdain for the character.

Also, whatever happened to those rumours about Eva Longoria as Jan? She's the last person I'd want in the role, personally, but those rumours were thick a year or so back, and she was even seen going into Marvel..

[khamelea]

It's not because it's predictable that I can't react with disbelief.

But really, what I expressed surprise at was that Hawkeye took priority. To be honest, I was thinking that about Black Widow as well. But explaining that would be more complicated, and also since I actually saw Iron Man 2 I had more advance warning that she'd be in there.

[mrstatham]

To be fair, unlike Hawkeye being shoehorned into one scene of Thor, I thought Natasha's role in IM2 was quite well done and a great nod to how she originally appeared in the books, only simplifying her role down to make her just an agent of SHIELD.

[khamelea]

Yes, her role was pretty much no more or less jarring than the rest of the SHIELD elements of IM2.

It's her role as the only female part of an iconic superhero team that I can't really conceive of as not being jarring.

Hawkeye

[nefrekeptah]

It's not very surprising, really. And seeing how one's a long standing fan-favorite that has become nearly synonymous with the Avengers as a whole, and the other is best known as "the token chick with the asshole spouse," I can't say I'm particularity choked up about it either.

Re: Hawkeye

[khamelea]

The visibility thing is arguable.

I think Wasp is probably more known to the movie going public at large as a secondary member of the Avengers than as a primary love interest for another slightly less obscure superhero.

It seems like a more iconic role, even if it's smaller in terms of total number of appearances in the actual comic books.

And, honestly, I'm "particularly choked up about it" exactly for that reason: Wasp is going to be introduced to the medium of film as a mandatory love interest to Ant Man. It could have been a good point to do something with the character.

Re: Hawkeye

[valtyr]

Look, just because Marvel can't figure out how to market a fashion designer who turns into a fairy and fights crime (gee, who'd be a good audience for that? Is that a crowd of teen girls frantically cramming their money into the hands of people who write well-dressed supernatural creatures fighting bad guys? Well, nothing to do with us, let's just kill off this Jan chick, obviously useless) doesn't make the character worthless. They adapted her into Giant Girl for Marvel Adventures and she was a fan favourite. She was well-liked as Wasp in the Earth's Mightiest Heroes cartoon. And she's their only female founding member, she should get some goddamn respect.