Amazing Spider-Man #673

[flint_marko]

Peter goes after Strange, demanding to know how Carlie could have uncovered his identity after his spell.



The thing he has to do is give MJ the antidote, since she still has her spider-powers.

Also, Kaine is now scarless, and from the looks of it I'm guessing he's going to be the new Scarlet Spider. I liked what they did with Kaine when they brought him back (before 'killing' him off), but I'm not too crazy about prettifying him and making him some sort of superhero. And why tease the possibility of bringing Ben back?

And Julia Carpenter, the new Madame Web (I still don't understand why they had to kill off the old one and make her the new one) apologizes to Peter about the loss that's to come.

Comments

Re: Mod Warning

[sindra]

I will not apologize for my comment, as I am a female myself and I was speaking from a completely female standpoint that the characterization of the character in that instance was deserving of the label I made.

However, I will not argue your ruling. I would just like to point out that it's too broad a statement to call something "blatantly sexist" when the context can be taken several different ways depending on your opinion. I certainly didn't mean it in a sexist way.

I am genuinely interested in knowing why this is being brought up now when I know I've seen comments on this very same character being made in a similar (if not worse) fashion, and no issues arose due to it, that I was aware of.

Re: Mod Warning

[cleome45]

Uh, you said you wouldn't argue, and then you argued.

How is a phrase like "uppity bitch" ever not sexist? I'm not a mod or anything, but I am a woman. I'd really like to know. What is accomplished with a sexist slur that can't be accomplished by calling her, say: A total asshole, a judgmental idiot, an arrogant jackass, etc.

And I know that a Cooper is a really unpopular character on s_d, and I completely understand why. But if there are really s_d threads where people have been using sexist slurs right and left to complain about her, I'd like to see the links. Because I'm finding that a little hard to believe.

Re: Mod Warning

[sindra]

I'm not *trying* to be argumentative, but I can't help but be a little put off by being called sexist when I'm making a comment about a character that was never meant to be a sexist slur.....rather than observation. If a character is acting like an uppity bitch, it's not because I'm choosing what some people might think is a sexist comment (within my own sex, even). It's because that character is acting like an uppity bitch and I decided to use that description.

That would be like a dude being called sexist for calling another dude a dick.

I guess I just don't see why I got a warning for it, ya know?

Re: Mod Warning

[cleome45]

"Dick" as an insult can't really be the same as "bitch" as an insult. I'm not saying that it's a particularly mature or well-reasoned thing to call a man, but seriously. Men as a gender rule over women, all other things being equal.

You add "uppity" and it just compounds the insult. "Uppity" is traditionally a slam used against an individual whom the powerful believe "does not know their proper place." IOW, against somebody who thinks their place in the status quo is lousy and rebels against it.

These term come with baggage. It's bad form to try and claim that you can use them as insults without bringing that baggage along with you.

Re: Mod Warning

[fifthie]

If a character is acting like an uppity bitch, it's not because I'm choosing what some people might think is a sexist comment (within my own sex, even). It's because that character is acting like an uppity bitch

So the judgments of other people about what your behavior indicates is just ~what they might think~ but your judgment about the behavior of the character Carlie Cooper is some sort of absolute value.

Re: Mod Warning

[sindra]

No, you're right. What I say is the same - ~what I might think~. I still don't see how it's sexist. Was it the uppity part? The bitch part?


If I'd called her an uppity dick, would I have gotten the warning anyway?

I'm genuinely trying to figure this out, because I like this community, but treading seems to have gotten tricky now.

Re: Mod Warning

[salinea]

Using the word "bitch" as a pejorative is never welcome in the community. Similarly, any gendered against women insults you can think of aren't okay.

You got a warning because the adjective "uppity" to "bitch" makes it even more sexist. (usually we only give a Mod Note reminding people not to do it when they use "bitch").

You would not have gotten a warning for "uppity dick". Mostly because men do not suffer from widespread discrimination and oppression just because they have a male body (though they may suffer from discrimination for mores specific reasons) and the expression "uppity dick" isn't built for the express purpose of reminding them their place as lower being.

If you're still confused, note that in our profile we link to a lot of documentation and resources about anti-oppression etc. which are what shapes our decisions on those sort of issues. You could learn more by following them.

Re: Mod Warning

[schmevil]

I still don't see how it's sexist. Was it the uppity part? The bitch part?

If I'd called her an uppity dick, would I have gotten the warning anyway?

For real? Bitch is sexist. And uppity is a seriously charged word, with a racist, sexist AND classist history. It's kind of a trifecta of careful language use fail. That you're a woman doesn't make 'uppity bitch' any less sexist.

I'm genuinely trying to figure out if you're concern trolling at this point. But hey, here's a post (on of the first to come up in a google search) on gendered insults and sexism, if you're interested in the topic.

Re: Mod Warning

[sindra]

I am not trying to troll. I'm trying to understand.

I'm not a feminist, so wrapping my head around a term that to some people is sexist while to me and people I know is just a regular insult (even used for guys) is kind of confusing. Especially when I'm a girl being told not to use supposedly gendered insults. I thought there were exceptions to the rule.

Again, is one girl calling another girl a bitch sexist? If I call a guy a dick, is that sexist?

Re: Mod Warning

[cleome45]

If you call a man a "bitch," as an insult, you're likening him (or some of his qualities) to women. Ergo: it's still sexist. (The two of you may not give a crap about that, in the overall scheme of things. But it's probably inadvisable in spaces like this.)

I already explained above why calling a man a dick isn't sexist. Are you even reading people's responses at this point? Have you seen the links in the s_d profile, or the link schmevil specifically found for you?

Personally, I hate it when other women throw around the word "bitch" to describe women. I've tried really hard to stop doing it myself. It's called internalized misogyny. It runs down other women for the very qualities that we all share, because we're all women.

I had a boss last month who made my last temp assignment just about the worst employment experience I've ever had in thirty-plus years of wage work. I was more than happy to inform other people that I found her to be an abusive, compulsively-lying, manipulative, lizard-brained, stupid-ass bullying dirtbag. If nothing else, I figure that's at least a tad more original than just throwing misogynist slurs around. :p

Re: Mod Warning

[sindra]

Alright, fair enough.

I did read what they posted, btw. I don't agree with it and think it's kinda crap, but I will abide by the ruling. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to stir shit. I'm just trying to get a feel of what is going on.

I'm not trying to be sexist. I just always use the term "bitch" as a way of saying "Hey, you're being a absolute asshat. It's just easier to say you're being a bitch.". I've used the term often around my fellow female friends without issue. I never thought of it as being anything misogynistic in the current time we live in. because I thought people had grown past that. (not meant as a jab to anyone here...I'm really just saying that)

So what I should have said is that Carlie is being a self-righteous pissant, right?

Re: Mod Warning

[cleome45]

"It's just easier to say you're being a bitch."

There's something ironic about saying this on a thread about Peter Parker, the dude who (when written well) was legendary for wanting to do the right thing, no matter how far from "easy" it was for him. But, yeah. In short: You know now that most woman posters on s_d have different standards about acceptable speech than your real-life friends, and in this context, your second version of your issues with a fictional female character are going to go over better than your first version did.

Re: Mod Warning

[schmevil]

Your comments here are great.

Re: Mod Warning

[cleome45]

Thank you. I was especially proud of "lizard-brained." :p

Re: Mod Warning

[schmevil]

You know, profanity really is limiting. So few people ever get creative with it.

Re: Mod Warning

[cleome45]

I encourage everyone out there to find work in a field rife with unsafe conditions, tons of filth, low pay, brutal hours, a hellish commute, contradictory instructions, employers so paranoid about petty theft that they make the security people at Fort Knox look laid-back, and numerous cockroaches* (both living and dead).

If that doesn't bring out your creative side vis-a-vis profanity, nothing will. ;)

*And I don't mean my co-workers. They were mostly okay.

Re: Mod Warning

[schmevil]

My part time job has inspired many a wilde-eyed, creative rant.

Re: Mod Warning

[cleome45]

[nod]

Employment, like fandom, goes a long way towards teaching us that It's Never Just You™.

Re: Mod Warning

[schmevil]

It's the people. What do we need them for, again?

Re: Mod Warning

[saralakali]

If you call a man a "bitch," as an insult, you're likening him (or some of his qualities) to women. Ergo: it's still sexist.

Sort of like calling Peter Parker a douche, right?

Re: Mod Warning

[cleome45]

Is it? I've wondered about that myself. What I've usually heard from people is that in the literal sense: a douche is an unnecessary object that performs an unneeded function. That's supposed to be the source of the insult: You're useless. You're uncalled for. You're unwanted.

But if that one's fallen out of favor because people think it has woman-exclusive overtones (guys were never told by advertising to pour dangerous chemicals in/on their genitalia to stay "fresh"), I'd be happy to find something else. Because it is pretty overused, if nothing else.

Re: Mod Warning

[stubbleupdate]

I need another song

Re: Just whatever you do...

[cleome45]

...don't google the phrase "Zonite ad."

[sigh]

Re: Mod Warning

[schmevil]

Bitch is always sexist, whether it's directed to a woman or man, or used by a woman or man. There's a sense in which it can be reclaimed "HBIC" or "fierce bitch" but even those usages aren't uncontested. So like, I'm not personally bothered by girls calling each other bitch in a friendly way, but I am bothered by girls calling each other bitches as a way to insult each other.

If you call a guy a dick, it's not sexist. It's a gendered insult but it's not about denigrating a guy for being a guy (ew!). It simply doesn't have the same weight or history behind it.

Re: Mod Warning

[salinea]

All right. First intent and result are two different things. So are the speaker and the message. You may say something without meaning for it to come across as sexist; but it can still be seen as sexist because of the history and background of the words. I never said you were sexist. I said what you said was.

And it was. cleome45 makes a great job of explaining why. "Uppity bitch" is an expression that has a strongly misogynist connotation because it implies that women shouldn't speak out of turn and that if they do dare voice disagreement against men, then they are worthy of being insulted.

Because no one in the Mod team is a mind reader, we can never judge based on intent, we have to make do with people they say, and what can be reasonably inferred from it, according to the rules and ethos of the community.

If you've seen some equally grievous insults against a female character in the past that we failed to mod, I would be thankful if you sent us a PM or e-mail pointing it out to the mod team. We are not omniscient and sometimes we miss things.