starwolf_oakley: (Default)
[personal profile] starwolf_oakley posting in [community profile] scans_daily
I've said on this board I don't like it when superhero comics (and other forms of pop culture) make it look like mental illness is some sort of moral failing.

Three actual psychiatrists have taken issue (pun intended) with DC Comics and their description of the mentally ill, especially Batman's rogues gallery. It was originally in the New York Times.

Newsarama covered it as well.

More and four pages from THE KILLING JOKE after the cut.



"You're trying to explain a character's villainy or extreme violence by using a real-life illness, that people in the real world have, that are very common. That's when it's harmful to people in real life."

"The psychiatrists repeated several time that they don't want the beloved villains in comics to be changed, and they are fine with depictions that show bizarre behavior. But they want the references to mental illnesses to be handled more responsibly."

Most comic book villains like murdering people for their own amusement. It is hard to describe the behavior of in "genuine" psychiatry terms.

There was praise for how Geoff Johns wrote Starman, who had schizophrenia, in JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA.

Here are four pages from BATMAN: THE KILLING JOKE. While the Joker wanted to prove a point about mental illness to Batman (one bad day will drive the sanest person mad) I don't think Alan Moore was trying to write an examination of mental illness. If Moore ever did examine mental illness in a graphic novel, it would be something. (WATCHMEN touched on mental illness, but it wasn't the theme of the story.)









I recall someone once saying THE KILLING JOKE would have worked better as a Two-Face story. Perhaps.

Date: 2011-11-03 04:41 am (UTC)
misterbug: (Default)
From: [personal profile] misterbug
Technically "From Hell" is about mental illness, but only in the sense that it be counted as a form of prayer.

Date: 2011-11-03 05:00 am (UTC)
kamino_neko: Kamino Neko's default icon... (Default)
From: [personal profile] kamino_neko
If only mis-identifying and mis-characterizing mental illnesses was the worst the bat-books did in that regard.

No, the worst is the fact that Dr Arkham's genuine desire to actually help his patients become functional (including treating them and referring to them as patients, not prisoners) was, even before he was shown to be psychotic (hallucinating 3 whole patients), and suffering from DID (where the secondary persona was a violent, manipulative psychopath), meant he was as dangerous as anyone in the asylum.

Date: 2011-11-03 02:02 pm (UTC)
thehefner: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thehefner
Speaking as someone who loves the Batman villains (especially the mentally ill ones) even more than the heroes, I just wish there's be some sense of consistency in the way their personalities and illnesses are handled. Sometimes I think the only way to salvage the mess would be to blame the quack doctor as Arkham for using a rotating series of unethical/unorthodox therapies and medications that only end up making the illnesses worse.

That said, I too miss Jeremiah Arkham as he was. The change to Black Mask was just too inexplicable, especially since Tony Daniel and David Hine both seemed to have completely separate ideas about HOW it happened (was Jeremiah a pawn of the Ministry and especially Fright, or was he a pawn of Hugo Strange and himself conspiring with Alyce Sinner? HAHA YOU GET NO ANSWERS BECAUSE EDITORIAL DOESN'T CARE), and it ruined Jeremiah as a character in a way that may never be reversible. Even if he's rehabilitated, writers won't be able to resist the looooooming specter of Black Mask, or some shit.

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Date: 2011-11-03 05:03 am (UTC)
shadowpsykie: Information (Default)
From: [personal profile] shadowpsykie
just got through reading the watchmen in my graphic novel class.

I had skimmed through it before and liked but this is the first time i actually read it and i LOVED it.... I also loved the Killing Joke. Moore really is a master story teller.... but he can't write women... i have yet to see him write a female character who is not a mere prop for a male character.

the thing is, i think he is CAPABLE of it,. he puts so much damn thought into all of his work. And there was more character development for Sally Jupiter in FOUR SILENT PANELS at the end of the book than every single other female character in the book had.

And Killing Joke is an excellent book, but he fucked over Barbara Gordon. (yeah he realized he messed up, but whats done is done) i think his problem is he gets an idea and be becomes obsessed with it and devotes all his time and energy to it, anything that is not connected to the main story, he considers, but only peripherally. He's still a damned genius... but he has his faults...

Date: 2011-11-03 06:55 am (UTC)
red_cyclone: (Default)
From: [personal profile] red_cyclone
Have you read Promethia? It's my favourite thing he's done, with several amazing, different female characters.

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Date: 2011-11-03 11:24 am (UTC)
randyripoff: (Barry Ween)
From: [personal profile] randyripoff
IIRC, the decision to cripple Barbara wasn't Moore's.

Additionally, I would argue that if you've only read Watchmen that you should probably sample a lot more of his work. I think he's done an excellent job over the years of writing numerous and varied women with strengths and weaknesses. Heck, it's his ability to write all sorts of people with their strengths and weaknesses that make him a great writer.

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Date: 2011-11-03 11:55 am (UTC)
icon_uk: (Default)
From: [personal profile] icon_uk
Mina Harker in "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen"?

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Date: 2011-11-03 01:22 pm (UTC)
wizardru: Hellboy (Default)
From: [personal profile] wizardru
He does have his faults, but writing good female characters isn't one that I'd ascribe to him. As others point out: Promethea, Mina Harker and Abigail are all solid characters who are far from props. I suppose you could make a case that Dahlua might be a prop for Tom Strong, but I don't think you could make that case for his daughter Tesla.

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Date: 2011-11-03 04:52 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I'd arguably say Evey in V for Vendetta is hardly designed as a prop for V himself. Her journey in the book is important, moreso than V's, because it's about her development and what she becomes - V, on the other hand, is certainly the lead, but there's no development or growth with him. He's fully formed, holds all the cards, and has a beginning and and end in-story. Evey takes up where he left off, but where she goes is maybe more important than what V accomplishes.

Also, there's Toybox and numerous other characters in Top Ten; It's a team book, so they're not leads, but I found most of the female characters in there to be quite well-written.

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Date: 2011-11-03 06:57 pm (UTC)
biod: Cute Galactus (Default)
From: [personal profile] biod
Mina Harker has more balls than any of the other Gentlemen.

Date: 2011-11-07 01:18 am (UTC)
thespis: (Default)
From: [personal profile] thespis
Seconding Promethea! It's one of my favourites of Alan Moore's work, and the artwork (by JH Williams III, who's now doing Batwoman) is nothing short of amazing. There are also some kick-ass female characters in Top Ten (one of my other favourites).

I agree with [personal profile] drexer, I think it's less a case of Moore not being able to write women, it's more that Watchmen and The Killing Joke are both lacking in female leads. But if you've only read those, I can definitely see how you could come away with that impression.

Date: 2011-11-03 06:27 am (UTC)
oroburos69: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oroburos69
I don't like the implication that mental illnesses can't be helped, and that every single time a villain "gets better" they relapse within a couple of issues. Or they were faking it all along. I know it's villain recycling 101, but couldn't at least one mentally ill villain respond well to medication or therapy and go on to live a relatively normal life? In a mental hospital, of course. No need to get too unrealistic.

Of course, competent use of medication and therapy would actually have to occur at some point for that to happen.

Date: 2011-11-03 07:34 am (UTC)
lilacsigil: 12 Apostles rocks, text "Rock On" (12 Apostles)
From: [personal profile] lilacsigil
I actually didn't mind the way they did this with Norman Osborn in Dark Avengers (if you overlook the stupid premise that they would put him in charge, of course). He had medication and therapy and got considerably better in the sense of not trying to destroy Spider-Man/not dressing up as the Green Goblin and blowing things up, while still being basically evil and controlling in a very sane and socially acceptable way. He wasn't faking it, he was never "good", but he was in control and competent.

In the end he stopped going to therapy because he was too busy with his other plans, overdid it and relapsed, but I found that pretty realistic and appropriate, too.

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Date: 2011-11-03 08:41 pm (UTC)
glprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glprime
They did this well with The Ventriloquist in the The New Batman Adventures episode "Double Talk," where Arnold battled his own demons, his alter's former minions and even the Batman himself, all fighting to push and pull him where they wanted his headspace, versus what he was feeling and dealing with.

I forget if there was a heavy implication of medication, but there were signs of therapy. Arnold Wesker more than anyone else (even Two-Face) has had the best chance of any the Gotham criminals of being successfully treated and released back into the general public.

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Date: 2011-11-03 07:14 am (UTC)
big_daddy_d: (Default)
From: [personal profile] big_daddy_d
As someone battling a mental illness of their own, this intrigues me. Also would like to be pointed towards said Starman focused stories in JSA.

Date: 2011-11-03 01:04 pm (UTC)
junipepper: (jumplines)
From: [personal profile] junipepper
It's the Starman (formerly Starboy) from the Legion of Superheros -- I think that's what they were referring to. He appeared in the earlier books of the last run of JSA. I think you'd want to start here:

http://www.amazon.com/Justice-Society-America-Vol-Next/dp/1401215858/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1320324820&sr=1-1.

Starman comes into play somewhere around The Lightning Saga and all through Thy Kingdom Come Vol. 1, 2, and 3.

I really liked this JSA run; it's definitely worth a look.

Date: 2011-11-03 08:22 am (UTC)
eyz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] eyz
Well, I'm not sure Batman villains should be taken as a good example (read: portrayals) for mental illness :P

Date: 2011-11-03 11:21 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] runespoor
That's like saying racist portrayals aren't good examples of problematic portrayals.

Batvillains are presented as having mental illnesses. For most of them, it's actually shown as the reason why they're villains in the first place. That's the very definition of problematic portrayal of mental illness.

Which is a shame, as Bruce is shown to be struggling with psychological issues himself.

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Date: 2011-11-03 08:24 am (UTC)
eyz: (Default)
From: [personal profile] eyz
-Tsk- And they still plan to shovel the JSA OUT of the DCU?
(and no, putting them back on "Earth 2" doesn't count/won't work the same because you'll also take their connection to the main DCU and their lagacies like the Starmans or Alan/Hal/John/Guy/Kyle or Jay/Barry/Wally/Bart...))

There have been some good examples actually

Date: 2011-11-03 04:08 pm (UTC)
blue_bolt: Fat Watcher (Default)
From: [personal profile] blue_bolt
I know that overall DC (and Marvel) don't portray mental illness that well but there have been some examples I've actually liked.

1. Will Magnus is bipolar, he takes meds to prevent him from going up and down but some of his most impressive (and utterly lethal) ideas are the result of manic episodes - he made a "Plutonium Man" when he stopped taking medication.

2. Niles Caulder is a cross between anti-social personality disorder and schizoid personality disorder. He meets all the criteria for being a Schizoid but only some of the criteria for anti-social personality disorder: he does care about the Doom Patrol he just doesn't seem to have any issue completely violating them mentally and physically, so he has low-empathy but not non-existent empathy. I think his causing their original "accidents" as well as remaking Rita 2.0 from gelatinous ooze counts as ASPD.

3. Cupid from Green Arrow displays what could be considered an example of a delusional disorder - that Green Arrow loves her and they are meant to be together. Stalkers who suffer from such a delusion are not persuaded by evidence or facts that they are wrong (much like creationists).


4. Ra's al Ghul has a messiah complex. He's convinced that he - and Batman - are the only people capable of creating a better world. Eventually he seems to place more faith in Talia and Nyssa but essentially he believes that he is not only one of the few capable of acting as the messiah, but that he is actively doing so in his pursuit of environmental protection. Sadly misanthropy is not a recognized mental disorder, though he certainly is a misanthrope supreme (see: tv tropes).

Re: There have been some good examples actually

Date: 2011-11-03 08:58 pm (UTC)
glprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glprime
I'd say al Ghul is less mental disorder than personality disorder (re: the misanthropy) resulting from his long life of terrible experiences seriously bending his ethics and morals. It's hard to give the guy a sanity or personality test against a "normative" or neurotypical standard, given he skews any test with his origin well outside the conventional age/cultural experience range.

It's hard to call Vandal Savage strictly homicidal in the clinical sense when his first few dozen lifetimes were in a "kill or be killed" society. Skews the guy's priorities up something fierce compared to our modern standards.

The one I always found confusing was where Harley Quinn falls. She's clearly delusional in the earlier period where she was Mistuh Jay's second, but more recently, she continues in her manic ways outside of her original (repressed?) Dr. Harleen Quinzell personality. Where's her core? Is there an "original" Harley or is it all whatever the environment lets her be?

Date: 2011-11-03 05:06 pm (UTC)
mrstatham: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mrstatham
I don't think TKJ works as an example of an examination of mental illness in comics, somehow; Joker is always specified to have some sort of undetermined illness, usually - Be it the one Morrison ascribes to him or whatever, and the entire point of the story in is that Joker isn't right. Joker's in the wrong; he fails to drive Gordon mad, and Batman isn't the same as him, I believe, despite the implications of the final page.

If the joke Joker makes at the end is an analogy, Batman's the guy who made it across - He was able to fight through his pain, and whilst it's still there, he focuses it into something positive, making sure it never happens to anyone again. Joker is afraid of accepting help, afraid that people will let him down or leave him, and is scared that if he accepts that help, it'll fall apart. And so he remains smothered in the pain of what happened that day, to the point he probably doesn't remember what even happened anymore - or simply lies about it to make himself feel better (the 'multiple choice' line), and he takes it out on those around him.

So.. Yes. I think there's some attempt to address what Joker's issues are, but to put TKJ down as a serious attempt to examine his problems and mental issues - I don't think it works well...

Date: 2011-11-03 05:33 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] omgwtflolbbqbye
I strongly agree with your interpretation of TKJ; I think it was more about showing how tragedy played a common role in driving Batman and Joker to become who they are but with polar opposite results.

Kind of tangential, but I think Dwayne McDuffie did a really good job of conveying a similar sentiment in his script for the "JLA: Crisis on Two Earth's Movies" with the confrontation between Batman and Owlman:

Owlman: From what I gather, we are very much alike. Everything about you tells the tale. Your attitude, your costume, your tactics... they all scream of outrage, despair, vengeance. What terrible wrong was done to set you on this path? It doesn't really matter. Nothing matters.

Batman: There is a difference between you and me. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back... *you* blinked.

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Date: 2011-11-03 06:21 pm (UTC)
whitesycamore: (Default)
From: [personal profile] whitesycamore
Food for thought, definitely.

A guy that I am really fond of was sectioned under the Mental Health Act a few days ago. I've felt like crying ever since, even though I know he's been this bad before, has recovered, and will recover again.

"As Grant Morrison, a well-known comic author, wrote recently, “The rest of Batman’s rogues’ gallery personified various psychiatric disorders to great effect: Two-Face was schizophrenia.”

Hah. Morrison, do you happen to know the name of the mental illness that compels you to run your mouth about stuff you know nothing about?

Date: 2011-11-03 09:04 pm (UTC)
glprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glprime
Right? (sorry for your friend; hopefully he gets to a better place soon)

Morrison and other writers get on about psychology and mental health all the time because they're intellectuals with varied cultural backgrounds, but not a one of them seem to grasp any of it on the level of actual health practitioners. (BKV and Kirkman seem to do well for the most part, but I have a hard time listing too many instances of them doing more than brushes with mental instability; it's not a theme they often run with to the degree of Morrison and others.)

Morrison seems to care more about theory and philosophy than actual clinical standards; if it doesn't help the story, who cares?

Patient Breakdowns of Dr. R. M. Cher...

Date: 2011-11-03 09:50 pm (UTC)
glprime: (Default)
From: [personal profile] glprime
Really, the whole damn concept of Arkham is an outdated conceit. With Blackgate Prison, writers could admit a number of the criminals in Gotham who kept committing violent (and profitable) crimes were not just mentally unstable and incapable of helping themselves. But the gothic symbolism and neat little package of "Arkham breakouts" being such a handy plot device is too much to pass up.
How many Bat villains are actually applicable?

- Bane: Socially stunted and lacking in empathy, but still much more sane than others, hardly any history of delusions. BLACKGATE
- Black Mask (Jeremiah Arkham): Classic dissociative disorder, with family history suggesting genetic propensity, but being later condition was largely fostered by hypnotic suggestion and medication, treatment is a likely possibility. ARKHAM.
- Calender Man: clear compulsion/obsession to his crimes, but a mind very keen and sharp. No reason his psychological bent being removed would prevent him from committing crime. BLACKGATE.
- Clayface: Beyond curing them of their abilities, there's nothing that can be done to treat them, as their mental states are dependent on their unique physiological conditions. Sociopathy/homicidal rage rampant, though how separate that is from their conditions is ambiguous. BLACKGATE or more likely D.E.O./ S.T.A.R. LABS facility.
- Deadshot: Homicidal tendencies, lack of social empathy seems evident, but he has affectionate attitude toward some relationships (friends, daughter). No delusions, compulsions or mania evident. BLACKGATE.
- Firefly: Clear pyromania, but maintained a long career as professional-for-hire arsonist. Treatment for compulsion possible, but criminal tendencies might remain. BLACKGATE prison with counseling sessions, followed by work release with D.E.O.?
- Harley Quinn: Odd pattern of fractured behavior that is hard to mesh with inconsistent patient history. Intense need to please, assimilate paired with rebellious attitude? Possible fear of abandonment? Has shown empathy and moral compass on occasion. Recommend intense therapy sessions to determine root causes. ARKHAM.
- Dr. Hugo Strange: Great intellectual capability, capable of intense logic and rationality, but operates from disturbed mentality. Successful rehabilitation unlikely. BLACKGATE.
- The Joker: Too many issues to list. But still able to note his actions having consequences (to a deliberate and pointed degree, so arguments for "love of chaos over order" does not dissuade culpability in grand schemes). BLACKGATE awaiting execution for thousands of murders.
- Man-Bat: see CLAYFACE.

Hush, Killer Croc, KGBeast, Mr. Freeze, Mr. Zsasz, The Penguin, Poison Ivy, The Scarecrow: BLACKGATE.

The Mad Hatter, Maxie Zeus, The Riddler, Two-Face, The Ventriloquist: ARKHAM.

Re: Patient Breakdowns of Dr. R. M. Cher...

Date: 2011-11-03 11:33 pm (UTC)
rdfox: Joker asking Tim Drake, "'Sup?" from Paul Dini's "Slay Ride" (Default)
From: [personal profile] rdfox
I would argue that Zsasz might well have been sent to Arkham on a successful insanity defense. Remember, Arkham isn't merely a rehabilitation facility, it's also a place for the incarceration of the criminally insane who *can't* be rehabilitated. So Hugo Strange would possibly qualify, and, as I said, Zsasz almost certainly would. It wouldn't be out of place for Johnathan Crane to go to Arkham, as well.

Beyond that, one could argue that Arkham could be better suited to providing the sort of physical environment required for certain patients with special medical needs, such as Mr. Freeze and arguably Ivy (who canonically needs sunlight and CO2 to survive). With the smaller population, it would certainly be *easier* to provide such special facilities there, which would also make such a "prison wing" at Arkham a very attractive option for the incarceration of, say, Killer Croc, who would require specially reinforced accomodations to hold him.

As for Joker... I would expect that one of these days, a cop would just blow his brains out "resisting arrest" and put an end to it all.

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