DC Comics, psychiatrists and mental illness

[starwolf_oakley]

I've said on this board I don't like it when superhero comics (and other forms of pop culture) make it look like mental illness is some sort of moral failing.

Three actual psychiatrists have taken issue (pun intended) with DC Comics and their description of the mentally ill, especially Batman's rogues gallery. It was originally in the New York Times.

Newsarama covered it as well.

More and four pages from THE KILLING JOKE after the cut.



"You're trying to explain a character's villainy or extreme violence by using a real-life illness, that people in the real world have, that are very common. That's when it's harmful to people in real life."

"The psychiatrists repeated several time that they don't want the beloved villains in comics to be changed, and they are fine with depictions that show bizarre behavior. But they want the references to mental illnesses to be handled more responsibly."

Most comic book villains like murdering people for their own amusement. It is hard to describe the behavior of in "genuine" psychiatry terms.

There was praise for how Geoff Johns wrote Starman, who had schizophrenia, in JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA.

Here are four pages from BATMAN: THE KILLING JOKE. While the Joker wanted to prove a point about mental illness to Batman (one bad day will drive the sanest person mad) I don't think Alan Moore was trying to write an examination of mental illness. If Moore ever did examine mental illness in a graphic novel, it would be something. (WATCHMEN touched on mental illness, but it wasn't the theme of the story.)









I recall someone once saying THE KILLING JOKE would have worked better as a Two-Face story. Perhaps.

Comments

[shadowpsykie]

just got through reading the watchmen in my graphic novel class.

I had skimmed through it before and liked but this is the first time i actually read it and i LOVED it.... I also loved the Killing Joke. Moore really is a master story teller.... but he can't write women... i have yet to see him write a female character who is not a mere prop for a male character.

the thing is, i think he is CAPABLE of it,. he puts so much damn thought into all of his work. And there was more character development for Sally Jupiter in FOUR SILENT PANELS at the end of the book than every single other female character in the book had.

And Killing Joke is an excellent book, but he fucked over Barbara Gordon. (yeah he realized he messed up, but whats done is done) i think his problem is he gets an idea and be becomes obsessed with it and devotes all his time and energy to it, anything that is not connected to the main story, he considers, but only peripherally. He's still a damned genius... but he has his faults...

[red_cyclone]

Have you read Promethia? It's my favourite thing he's done, with several amazing, different female characters.

[drexer]

Yeah this. Promethea really shows of that Moore can write a lot of great characters, be they woman or not, and that the biggest problem is usually that the characters in the sidelines don't get as well developed and thus seem weaker in comparison.

Abigail in Swamp Thing also had a great evolution as a character side-by-side with Swampy which is quite enjoyable.

[shadowpsykie]

the biggest problem is usually that the characters in the sidelines don't get as well developed and thus seem weaker in comparison.

that may be it.

[randyripoff]

IIRC, the decision to cripple Barbara wasn't Moore's.

Additionally, I would argue that if you've only read Watchmen that you should probably sample a lot more of his work. I think he's done an excellent job over the years of writing numerous and varied women with strengths and weaknesses. Heck, it's his ability to write all sorts of people with their strengths and weaknesses that make him a great writer.

[wizardru]

Oh, he intended to cripple Barbara...within the context of 'Killing Joke' only. It was supposed to be an out-of-continuity story when he wrote it. But it proved so popular that DC decided to make it canon.

[shadowpsykie]

he gets props for realizing he messed up

[randyripoff]

You are correct sir, and I humbly bow to your wisdom in this matter.

And I really do wish it had not become canon. I've long felt that The Killing Joke was one of his weakest efforts.

[mrstatham]

I think Moore agrees with you on that one. He doesn't see what the fuss is about, now there's a fair piece of distance between him and the book, and apparently finds it quite nasty.

I think his work with the Joker is great, personally, but parts of it are lacking. I always pondered what an animated adaptation would be like, though, especially since during the climax, I imagine that Batman bursting through the mirror would fit great to the 'dun dun dunnn dunnnnnnn!!' swell of music employed so well in B:TAS.

Re: Patient Breakdowns of Dr. R. M. Cher...

[starwolf_oakley]

Moore isn't even that crazy about WATCHMEN from what I've heard. He has said it was a result of "a bad mood I was in 15 years ago," and didn't really intend to become the Pied Piper of the "grim and gritty" movement.

http://www.avclub.com/articles/alan-moore,13740/

The apocalyptic bleakness of comics over the past 15 years sometimes seems odd to me, because it's like that was a bad mood that I was in 15 years ago. It was the 1980s, we'd got this insane right-wing voter fear running the country, and I was in a bad mood, politically and socially and in most other ways. So that tended to reflect in my work. But it was a genuine bad mood, and it was mine. I tend to think that I've seen a lot of things over the past 15 years that have been a bizarre echo of somebody else's bad mood.

[icon_uk]

Mina Harker in "The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen"?

[shadowpsykie]

forgot about Mina....

[wizardru]

He does have his faults, but writing good female characters isn't one that I'd ascribe to him. As others point out: Promethea, Mina Harker and Abigail are all solid characters who are far from props. I suppose you could make a case that Dahlua might be a prop for Tom Strong, but I don't think you could make that case for his daughter Tesla.

[shadowpsykie]

hmmmm i i didnt' know he did promethea, and forgot about abagail... i miigjt have to pick these up...

[mrstatham]

I'd arguably say Evey in V for Vendetta is hardly designed as a prop for V himself. Her journey in the book is important, moreso than V's, because it's about her development and what she becomes - V, on the other hand, is certainly the lead, but there's no development or growth with him. He's fully formed, holds all the cards, and has a beginning and and end in-story. Evey takes up where he left off, but where she goes is maybe more important than what V accomplishes.

Also, there's Toybox and numerous other characters in Top Ten; It's a team book, so they're not leads, but I found most of the female characters in there to be quite well-written.

[mrstatham]

Also, let's be fair. That DC realised they could cash-cow Killing Joke (especially once it got Tim Burton's endorsement when he was making Batman '89 and cited TKJ as one of his favourite stories (nevermind he also admitted he didn't really read much else)) and decided to keep it as canon is hardly Moore's fault.

Yes, he crippled Barbara, but you can't pin the twenty+ years of being in a chair as Oracle on him; Blame DC. Anyone who reads TKJ can clearly tell it DOESN'T fit as an in-continuity story. The final pages all reek of it being the final night that Batman and Joker will ever do this dance - And then the police find Batman laughing with the Joker. How does that fit in canon? I know there's an issue where Barbara challenges Batman over the matter, but it doesn't work. If Gordon knew that the man he trusted was laughing it up with the man who just crippled his daughter, he'd have him flung in Arkham.

It doesn't work. And whilst I enjoy aspects of TKJ, I don't think Moore is to blame for the long-lasting repercussions of the story.

[biod]

It was panel was ambiguous in that panel whether Batman has his hand on the Joker's shoulder or if he was choking him. If the latter, then I'm sure Gordon wouldn't mind the laughter as much.
And I've written a very small piece about the Joker in which his sense of humor is more appreciated than anyone wants to admit. Anyone want to read that?

[starwolf_oakley]

The first time I read TKJ, I thought Batman was choking the Joker at the end. Also, I didn't fully understand the first Flashbacks in TKJ the first time I read it. I wasn't even sure they *were* flashbacks until the Red Hood was shown in the box, and then I "got" it.

Batman and Joker laughing like idiots at the end of TJK isn't mentioned often. There was the "Oracle origin story" from BATMAN CHRONICLES #5.

At the end of a miniseries (don't remember which one), the Joker said "Why did you laugh that one time, when I told you that joke about the flashlight? Because it's absurd. Because we're absurd."

[kksimone]

Even before the end it doesn't fit in continuity--Bruce's got a framed copy of Bob Kane's Batman Family Photo. Half the people/imps/dogs in that picture didn't exist and had never existed. I mean, when TKJ came out. I think all of them now exist again, but of course Kathy Kane was still murdered (So, did the Kathy Kane murder case being reopened storyline ever go anywhere?)

[biod]

Mina Harker has more balls than any of the other Gentlemen.

[thespis]

Seconding Promethea! It's one of my favourites of Alan Moore's work, and the artwork (by JH Williams III, who's now doing Batwoman) is nothing short of amazing. There are also some kick-ass female characters in Top Ten (one of my other favourites).

I agree with drexer, I think it's less a case of Moore not being able to write women, it's more that Watchmen and The Killing Joke are both lacking in female leads. But if you've only read those, I can definitely see how you could come away with that impression.