shadowpsykie: (Happy Willow)
[personal profile] shadowpsykie posting in [community profile] scans_daily


what ever, i don't care, i STILL think that MJ could and SHOULD be the next Scarlet Spider! in my head, she is... and i will DRAW IT!..... maybe... i don't know.... SOME ONE WILL DRAW IT I INVOKE RULE 32!!!





I would Also LIke to reward you guys who helped me with my paper with this video my professor showed us at the begining of class as we discussed Joss Whedon, Feminism and Astonishing X-Men: Gifted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs

http://fanboywatchtower.tumblr.com/post/12310564628/so-in-my-graphic-novel-class-at-cal-state

i may be a little bit in love with this man...
*Note: POsted my blog link which has he video because for some reason i can't get the link to embed here...

Date: 2011-11-04 04:06 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
Joss loves victimizing his female characters to much and destroys them in ways he never even attempts with the male characters I've seen. Also their recovery is frequnetly(much like many of the times he's ruined a relationship of some sort) simply slide over for the next trauma

Date: 2011-11-04 04:34 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
For the men, I think Angel is the only one who came close to suffering what some of the women of the Buffyverse suffered. And the women of the Buffyverse surviving going through the ringer didn't make me feel they were stronger, it made me feel whatever choice they'd make they end up going through it.

I would have occasionally liked to see them avoid their problems because it would have made it seem less like the universe going "well we can't torment you anymore this year if we want there to be a next year to torment you."

Date: 2011-11-05 10:11 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] jlbarnett
willow came close. it wasn't because she had power though, it was because she abused that power. she became a "Junky" because she may have started out using her powers for good, but ended up using her powers for personal gain.

I honestly didn't believe that for Willow's character, and also felt like the way she was written her not abusing the power was not a possibility. THat's part of the issue I have about what happened to female characters in the Buffyverse. The universe twisted and warped and bent over backwards to make them usffer. Except for Angel I didn't feel that happened with the guys.

Date: 2011-11-06 03:20 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (ma-raw)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
Actually, the thing is for me, they set up Willow having a problem with power/authority quite early - her glee over being asked to substitute teach, and when she was going around interrogating students, she was clearly glorying in the role. They could have done great character stuff with her sliding into abusing her power, with the power as a tool. Instead, they made the tool the cause of her abusing it, which was kind of nonsensical. (Also, simultaneously using 'spells' and 'magic' as euphemisms for lesbian sex, and using them as a metaphor for corrupting addiction... not ideal.)

Date: 2011-11-04 11:52 am (UTC)
deepspaceartist: Ed Robinson of Barnaked Ladies making a funny face behind Tyler Stewart (Default)
From: [personal profile] deepspaceartist
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Angel wins the suffering crown of the Buffy verse. He spent the time between Buffy season two and three in hell, complete with soul and all. And he said it was one of those hour on earth= years in hell kind of deals. I don't think any of the female charcters suffered anything close to years spent in literal hell.

Date: 2011-11-04 12:18 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (emma and namor)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
Wasn't Fred's soul annihilated? I'm pretty sure in the Buffyverse hierarchy, soul-destruction is worse than time in Hell.

I also think there's something of a difference between 'suffering we see on screen' and 'suffering we're only told about'.

Date: 2011-11-04 02:31 pm (UTC)
deepspaceartist: Ed Robinson of Barnaked Ladies making a funny face behind Tyler Stewart (Default)
From: [personal profile] deepspaceartist
I wouldn't consider soul annilation 'suffering' so much as 'death without an afterlife'. While Fred definitley has the worst fate of all the main characters who die and stay dead, it is not suffering since one cannot suffer if one no longer exists in any form other than memories.

I will concede that on-screen suffering has more of an emotional impact than off screen. Though I would still argue that Angel is the worst off even if we stick only to he stuff we see. He did get to see his son taken to hell by an enemy and then come back as a young adult raised to hat him by the aforementioned enemy.

Date: 2011-11-04 03:52 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (Mine)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
I don't think we're quite talking about the same thing. When I say suffering, I'm not just talking about bad things happening, I'm talking about their responses to it. There's a lot more focus on the suffering of women, and they cry and have breakdowns and entire episodes devoted to how they just can't cope with the heavy burdens of their responsibilities, and they get addicted to magic and fall into unhealthy relationships they regret and ugh. When Angel can't cope, he murders a bunch of lawyers and bangs a hot chick who then is saved by the power of motherhood and kills herself to save the foetus. When Angel bangs a evil vampire because he can't cope, it ultimately redeems her and him. When Buffy does it, it ends with her all tearful and cringing in her bathrobe all I COULD NEVER LOVE YOU.

Date: 2011-11-04 04:20 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (Hulk map)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
Yeah, I'm talking about the same incident.

Yes, I know why she says that. That doesn't change the point.

Spike is not a bad counter-point; his basement-wallowing teary angst is closest to the way the suffering of female characters is wallowed in.

Angel lost his son to his archnemisis and saw them both escape into a hell dimension. he also had to give up his son so that he could have a normal life.

Yeah, well, Darla would have experienced that except oh wait, she'd already killed herself to save her baby because the primal power of motherhood overcomes vampire evil or something?

yes, the female characters may cry, and have break downs, and get addicted to magick, but they always stand up and heal themselves. (well okay xander sorta saved willow, but it wasn't because he was a man, it was because he was her best friend.)

So? The male characters generally don't have the breakdowns like that.

Xander broke down when the Priest took his eye. he tried to be all brave when buffy was there, but cried into willows arms. i think the attack on him was far more emotional than the physical act of taking his eye.

Yeah, once, and speaking as someone who's lost the sight of an eye, it should probably have had longer-reaching traumatic effects than one crying session.

I think he did a lot better job with the women in Firefly, much more range; Zoe, and to some extent Inara, were much more collected and stoic, providing a nice contrast to River and Kaylee's much more emotional stuff. I still don't recall Mal ever having a weeping breakdown or screaming about how he's vile and hates himself while punching his body, though.

yes, because the female characters are the main characters (except for firefly and a side from river, Mal is the most damaged there) and male characters are mostly secondary characters.

...who was the main character in Angel?

Date: 2011-11-04 05:12 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (Kelda)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
I, for one, am not saying either he's perfect or awful. I think he genuinely tries to be feminist, and sometimes succeeds and sometimes doesn't. I really liked Buffy, and enjoyed Angel and Firefly. But there are problems with Firefly too; Inara's profession is handled very awkwardly, and there's race issues. We can criticise his work without hating him, and we can like his work while still acknowledging flaws.

Yes, Angel was angsty, but in the stoic brooding way. The suffering was quite gendered. Women were much more prone to breaking under the strain, weeping, having to lean on others.

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Date: 2011-11-04 05:34 pm (UTC)
deepspaceartist: Ed Robinson of Barnaked Ladies making a funny face behind Tyler Stewart (Default)
From: [personal profile] deepspaceartist
From that point of view, yeah, you're right. Buffy (the show) definitly spent most of it's suffering time focusing on the women. Giles and Oz while he was there were all stoic, and Xander's problems were usually treated as comic relief. I don't think Angel (also the show) spent too much time on it, though. Cordelia wasn't the dewll and angst type, and Fred (more or less) got over Pylea pretty quick.

Though I would like to point out that Buffy's banging of an evil vampire also ended with him getting redeemed and going all heroic sacrifice. He just got to come back because people liked Spike more than Darla.

Date: 2011-11-04 05:39 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (americat)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
Angel had some distinctly skeevy bits; Cordelia's whole plot was... weird as hell, to be honest, and involved getting knocked up by demons twice. And Fred's lingering painful death was somewhat ooky. (And can I say, I really don't like that they never told her parents and never passed on Fred's last messages to them?)

Mmph, I'd definitely argue they were handled in very different ways - Buffy's situation had a distinct air of 'this is what you get for banging an evil vampire' whereas Darla didn't even need a soul before she was sacrificing her life for the baby and charging Angel with sad-eyed messages.

Date: 2011-11-04 06:10 pm (UTC)
deepspaceartist: Ed Robinson of Barnaked Ladies making a funny face behind Tyler Stewart (Default)
From: [personal profile] deepspaceartist
Well the first demon pregnancy was a one off thing, like Buffy's telepathy or Xander's magic siphillis, not part of Cordelia's overall plot. But yeah, Cordy's plot got a bit screwed-up when Jasmine got involved. No argument there. Before that it was just Cordelia becoming less of the selfish person she was in Buffy, and more of an actual hero. Then came season four. I like to think that S4 Cordy is all Jasmine and the real Cordelia had nothing to do with it after her memory came back.

And team Angel lying abouts Fred's death to the Burkles is pretty messed-up, but IIRC Wesley was goint to tell them before Illyria walked up pretending to be Fred. And they probably spared the Burkles some pain by not telling them that this person who looks,acts and sounds like their daughter is just an ancient evil using her corpse as a shell.

I also seem to remember that the baby's soul was also functioning as Darla's soul at the end, and that's why she was all concience-y and self sacrifice-y. And Spike did choose to go and get a soul of his own souless volition, so that's at least some pre-soul redemtion for him.

Date: 2011-11-04 06:15 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (Carol Vulcan)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
Well, I feel they should really have told the Burkles their daughter was dead as soon as possible. Rather than forget about them until they turned up. I mean - she told Wesley to tell them things. And he just... didn't.

Ugh that makes no sense, even in the inconsistent Buffyverse. Did they ever clarify he deliberately got his soul? I thought it was left ambiguous - he could have been going to get the chip removed. And I don't even know if it's redemption, really, as he's previously shown himself to do the most outlandish things for love; it's not a sign of redemption but obsession.

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Date: 2011-11-04 03:35 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (Emma Blue)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
Illyria had enough of her... memories? To impersonate her, but the phrase used was "her soul was burned up in the fires of resurrection".

Date: 2011-11-04 03:55 pm (UTC)
valtyr: (Emma fight the void)
From: [personal profile] valtyr
Yup!

A lot of the mythology of the Buffyverse is inconsistent, to be honest. But they seemed pretty definite about Fred's soul being destroyed. I don't quite know what you mean by her not being Illyria, though?

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Date: 2011-11-04 08:23 am (UTC)
biod: Cute Galactus (Default)
From: [personal profile] biod
Joss Whedon will destroy every character you love, male or female. It's just is MO.

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