scans_daily

what ever, i don't care, i STILL think that MJ could and SHOULD be the next Scarlet Spider! in my head, she is... and i will DRAW IT!..... maybe... i don't know.... SOME ONE WILL DRAW IT I INVOKE RULE 32!!!

I would Also LIke to reward you guys who helped me with my paper with this video my professor showed us at the begining of class as we discussed Joss Whedon, Feminism and Astonishing X-Men: Gifted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs

http://fanboywatchtower.tumblr.com/post/12310564628/so-in-my-graphic-novel-class-at-cal-state

i may be a little bit in love with this man...
*Note: POsted my blog link which has he video because for some reason i can't get the link to embed here...

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From:

jlbarnett

Joss loves victimizing his female characters to much and destroys them in ways he never even attempts with the male characters I've seen. Also their recovery is frequnetly(much like many of the times he's ruined a relationship of some sort) simply slide over for the next trauma

From:

shadowpsykie

he has put angel through hell, xander through hell, wesley through hell, and giles through hell, and Mal through hell, hell Mal Duncan is one of the most messed up characters he has ever created. its true he does the same to the women, aside from serenity and angel most of his shows are female heavy.

on buffy you had through high school Buffy, Cordelia, willow, anya, Joyce, faith and then Giles, angel, and xander, oz for the last season or two.

then in college you had buffy, anya, willow, tara, Dawn, Joyce and then Giles, Xander, and Riley for... a season (never liked riley)

for him everyone was fair game.

and i don't think he Loves Victimizing them at all. He loves showing that women don't have to be victims. that you can throw them through the ringer, just like you would a male character, and they will come out stronger.

also i don't think he victimized them at all. the show was about turning tropes on their head. victims stayed down, victims need to be saved especially if they are women. here, they didn't stay down, they did the saving, and they kicked ass doing it. if they suffered it wasn't because they were women its because of the line of work they were in. and anytime some tried to victimize them they stood up and fought against it and usually won.

From:

jlbarnett

For the men, I think Angel is the only one who came close to suffering what some of the women of the Buffyverse suffered. And the women of the Buffyverse surviving going through the ringer didn't make me feel they were stronger, it made me feel whatever choice they'd make they end up going through it.

I would have occasionally liked to see them avoid their problems because it would have made it seem less like the universe going "well we can't torment you anymore this year if we want there to be a next year to torment you."

From:

shadowpsykie

the way i see it, Buffy was peter parker, so naturally she got kicked around by the universe. but she always said "Screw you universe" and though it fought hard she usually always won out in the end. hell she died twice and came back.

she was the worse treated but she always (well save the slump she had season 7 it had its moments but i was like... geez buff, stop being sooo not buffy) remained buffy.

willow came close. it wasn't because she had power though, it was because she abused that power. she became a "Junky" because she may have started out using her powers for good, but ended up using her powers for personal gain.

Giles was tortured by Angelus, and more often than not he was the helpless victim, same with xander.

i don't know. i always loved that no matter how hard the universe tried to hold buffy and her friends back. no matter how many men (in the form of the watcher's council) tried to control her, she would have none of it. (again season 7 not my favorite season, it had good points "musical!!!" but didn't love her being all mopey)

From:

jlbarnett

willow came close. it wasn't because she had power though, it was because she abused that power. she became a "Junky" because she may have started out using her powers for good, but ended up using her powers for personal gain.

I honestly didn't believe that for Willow's character, and also felt like the way she was written her not abusing the power was not a possibility. THat's part of the issue I have about what happened to female characters in the Buffyverse. The universe twisted and warped and bent over backwards to make them usffer. Except for Angel I didn't feel that happened with the guys.

From:

valtyr

Actually, the thing is for me, they set up Willow having a problem with power/authority quite early - her glee over being asked to substitute teach, and when she was going around interrogating students, she was clearly glorying in the role. They could have done great character stuff with her sliding into abusing her power, with the power as a tool. Instead, they made the tool the cause of her abusing it, which was kind of nonsensical. (Also, simultaneously using 'spells' and 'magic' as euphemisms for lesbian sex, and using them as a metaphor for corrupting addiction... not ideal.)

From:

deepspaceartist

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Angel wins the suffering crown of the Buffy verse. He spent the time between Buffy season two and three in hell, complete with soul and all. And he said it was one of those hour on earth= years in hell kind of deals. I don't think any of the female charcters suffered anything close to years spent in literal hell.

From:

valtyr

Wasn't Fred's soul annihilated? I'm pretty sure in the Buffyverse hierarchy, soul-destruction is worse than time in Hell.

I also think there's something of a difference between 'suffering we see on screen' and 'suffering we're only told about'.

From:

deepspaceartist

I wouldn't consider soul annilation 'suffering' so much as 'death without an afterlife'. While Fred definitley has the worst fate of all the main characters who die and stay dead, it is not suffering since one cannot suffer if one no longer exists in any form other than memories.

I will concede that on-screen suffering has more of an emotional impact than off screen. Though I would still argue that Angel is the worst off even if we stick only to he stuff we see. He did get to see his son taken to hell by an enemy and then come back as a young adult raised to hat him by the aforementioned enemy.

From:

valtyr

I don't think we're quite talking about the same thing. When I say suffering, I'm not just talking about bad things happening, I'm talking about their responses to it. There's a lot more focus on the suffering of women, and they cry and have breakdowns and entire episodes devoted to how they just can't cope with the heavy burdens of their responsibilities, and they get addicted to magic and fall into unhealthy relationships they regret and ugh. When Angel can't cope, he murders a bunch of lawyers and bangs a hot chick who then is saved by the power of motherhood and kills herself to save the foetus. When Angel bangs a evil vampire because he can't cope, it ultimately redeems her and him. When Buffy does it, it ends with her all tearful and cringing in her bathrobe all I COULD NEVER LOVE YOU.

From:

shadowpsykie

i could be wrong... but isn't the two instances you named with angel the same instance?

also, the scene you are talking about with Buffy, she tries to end the relationship with spike because she knows its unhealthy. then he tries to rape her, and she fights him off, thats why she says "I could never love you" because she could never love a rapist.

I think spike went through his share of suffering season 7 once he got his soul back.

riley became addicted to getting sucked... ummm by vampires i mean... his blood i mean.... yeah....

giles was tortured by angelus, (and like i said, frequent victim of kidnapping and torture)

Angel lost his son to his archnemisis and saw them both escape into a hell dimension. he also had to give up his son so that he could have a normal life.

yes, the female characters may cry, and have break downs, and get addicted to magick, but they always stand up and heal themselves. (well okay xander sorta saved willow, but it wasn't because he was a man, it was because he was her best friend.)

Xander broke down when the Priest took his eye. he tried to be all brave when buffy was there, but cried into willows arms. i think the attack on him was far more emotional than the physical act of taking his eye.

On Firefly, Mal was an emotional wreck. Zoe pretty much went through the same thing he did and was FAR MORE adjusted to life than he was, Mal was still "Damaged"

does he seem to lump more onto the female characters? yes, because the female characters are the main characters (except for firefly and a side from river, Mal is the most damaged there) and male characters are mostly secondary characters.

From:

valtyr

Yeah, I'm talking about the same incident.

Yes, I know why she says that. That doesn't change the point.

Spike is not a bad counter-point; his basement-wallowing teary angst is closest to the way the suffering of female characters is wallowed in.

Angel lost his son to his archnemisis and saw them both escape into a hell dimension. he also had to give up his son so that he could have a normal life.

Yeah, well, Darla would have experienced that except oh wait, she'd already killed herself to save her baby because the primal power of motherhood overcomes vampire evil or something?

yes, the female characters may cry, and have break downs, and get addicted to magick, but they always stand up and heal themselves. (well okay xander sorta saved willow, but it wasn't because he was a man, it was because he was her best friend.)

So? The male characters generally don't have the breakdowns like that.

Xander broke down when the Priest took his eye. he tried to be all brave when buffy was there, but cried into willows arms. i think the attack on him was far more emotional than the physical act of taking his eye.

Yeah, once, and speaking as someone who's lost the sight of an eye, it should probably have had longer-reaching traumatic effects than one crying session.

I think he did a lot better job with the women in Firefly, much more range; Zoe, and to some extent Inara, were much more collected and stoic, providing a nice contrast to River and Kaylee's much more emotional stuff. I still don't recall Mal ever having a weeping breakdown or screaming about how he's vile and hates himself while punching his body, though.

yes, because the female characters are the main characters (except for firefly and a side from river, Mal is the most damaged there) and male characters are mostly secondary characters.

...who was the main character in Angel?

From:

shadowpsykie

...who was the main character in Angel?
i accidently left out angel too, come on though, angel was ANGSTY and wesly was in HORRIBLE shape after Connor was taken and after Fred died, he wallowed ALOT AND hated himself. (though i still think Spike is the best counterpoint for that)

i would also like to note, that the episodes you sited, (ie seeing red, the spike attepmted rape scene) was not written nore directed by Joss Whedon, by season.... 5 i think, Whedon was more hands off on the series. same goes for the lullaby episode (the episode where darla stakes herself) true he might have planned the over all arch, and might have okayed the episodes, but that went to Stephen S. Deknight and Tim Minear respectively, as they both wrote and directed both those episodes.

he was far more hands on with Firefly. And if you notice most of the episodes he wrote and directed and had more direct contact with are the better episodes of the series.

i am not saying he is perfect, or he gets everything right, but he is good, and has done alot more for female empowerment than any other male creator ever has. (IMHO)

From:

valtyr

I, for one, am not saying either he's perfect or awful. I think he genuinely tries to be feminist, and sometimes succeeds and sometimes doesn't. I really liked Buffy, and enjoyed Angel and Firefly. But there are problems with Firefly too; Inara's profession is handled very awkwardly, and there's race issues. We can criticise his work without hating him, and we can like his work while still acknowledging flaws.

Yes, Angel was angsty, but in the stoic brooding way. The suffering was quite gendered. Women were much more prone to breaking under the strain, weeping, having to lean on others.

Bringing the crack since December 2003

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